Isandlwana cultural centre

Some of you are no doubt aware of the plans regarding the cultural centre at Isandlwana, for those of you who haven't seen the mock-up of the buildings and development take a look at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have heard from a Zulu friend of mine that a grave apparently containing European and African remains has been uncovered during the course of preparing the site.  I don't know if any of our South African members can verify this?

John Y.

I sincerely hope to God that abortion is not erected within site of the battlefield. Potentialy another white elephant like the Blood River structure. JY do you have the proposed location?

Frank,

Just outside of the battlefield gates I'm afraid.

John Y.

The old beer hall was less impact than that, just so bloody typical of this government. I would assume that a close relative of Zuma has been awarded a totally overpriced contract !

Frank,

Your mention of that beer hall brought a smile to my face. Isandula do you remember our assault on the bottle store there on 22nd January 1999?

Apparently the SA Lottery has stumped up a few bob, however I have been informed, KwaCulture have also been making approaches in the UK for funding sources.

John Y.

Pint bottles of Carling Black Label John? Warm at that

Hi Frank
I took some photo's of the proposed area last Oct/ Nov when I was there , I'll send them to you if you wish ? , feel free to post them here as well if you have the inclination .
Cheers Mate
90th .

90th,

I have asked "The Major" to look in the matter about the grave. He has informed me that he took a party from the centre "on a patrol" as they needed an introduction to the battle.

John Y.

Thanks Gary, e mail them and I will post to the forum.

Excellent thinking JY. Do you think the finding of this Grave may put a halt to this ridiculous scheme ? .
90th

Sorry we seem to have had a cross over:
I posted this on the Bassage string
"Thanks Gary, Ive just had a look. That's right over the firing line that the 'dig' ascertained. Its not on. JY needs to get onto the royal family and create some noise. Bloody nonsensical and downright disrespectful to those thousands of Zulu that died just there."

This the area the chest attacked just in front of the guns
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The firing line just before the knuckle where a huge slaughter took place and this is where the idiots want to build. There are a lot of ancestors that will be upset about this and I predict a couple of the local Sangomas will be calling up the odd Tokalosh or two. In fact I will bloody well pay there professional fees.
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Thanks to 90th for the above photos.

Frank,

I am informed the project has the full approval and sanction of the Royal House.  My usual contact is due in the UK next month, but he has been seriously ill, and might not be able to travel. If he does come I will ask him to express our concerns, but I fear matters have progressed too far as the ground has been gifted by a member of the Royal House.

John Y.

Lets hope they cant raise enough money to pay the bribes..........................

LH
Thank you for that its very informative. What it doesn't make mention of is the Pollard survey that dug in that exact area and located the firing line. Im sending a copy of that dig documentation to them.
As my Aussie is want to say: "it aint over till the fat bitch sings"

Littlehand,

Likewise thanks, especially as it includes information which seems to verify what my source has given me to be correct.

As an aside. Whoever provided that text to them needs to brush up on their knowledge, as he/she has placed Captain G. Barton at Isandlwana, let alone being able spell Glyn correctly. Ye Gods!

As I told a Zulu the other day when he was discussing a proposed monument to the fallen, I reiterated the words Let the mountain be their monument.... An expression he had never heard before. Then he asked what should become of the remains? I told him there is already a dedicated place at St. Vincent's - which also surprised him. He stated he would inform KwaCulture of this.

I will chase him up next week about this.

John Y.

Frank Allewell wrote:

Lets hope they cant raise enough money to pay the bribes..........................

LH
Thank you for that its very informative. What it doesn't make mention of is the Pollard survey that dug in that exact area and located the firing line. Im sending a copy of that dig documentation to them.
As my Aussie is want to say: "it aint over till the fat bitch sings"

"it aint over till the fat lady sings"

Admin,

That's Smoko's (aka 90th) version that Frank has given there.

John Y.

Say no more!!!!

who me ?
90th

Ive been chatting to a few people and the consensus is this will not be stopped. The main reason being its a commercial venture rather than a heritage issue. the key points are that there will be a hotel and a camping ground. The addition of the cultural appendage is a sop to get the rest built.
So 90% moneymaking and a throw away micro attempt to validate it all with a 'cultural' centre.
The royal family, the Buthelezi family and the Zuma gang should hang their heads in shame to even think of selling their heritage and trampling over the memories of those that died trying to uphold their own heritage.
Gone will be the special feeling generated on the battlefield, gone will be the peace and solitude one feels walking the firing line. Gone will be the respectfull approach visitors adopt. In its place will be the additional traffic the sounds of music blaring from the camp site the nightime illumination and the attendant sounds of service vehicles.
Shame on you.

Agree 100 % Frank , anyone who is thinking of going to Isandlwana needs to do so sooner than later , the whole area will be transformed , and nothing will remain of the feeling you get today walking those area's . Pete ( Admin ) time to go before it's to late !!!!
90th

Frank,

Something ago back in 2009 some of the members of the Royal House - those of my acquaintance - suggested that the Mangeni Falls area was the more appropriate for siting a cultural/interpretation centre for Isandlwana. However the whatever the Department of Transport is known as in SA refused to assist them in building a tarred road to the area. Their plans appear to have been hijacked as certain proposals made for the Mangeni site have been incorporated into the Isandlwana site.

Does AMAFA no longer have any say in the welfare of the battlefield?

John Y.

Morning John
I am pursuing the issue, I can understand the road to Mangeni being an issue that a long difficult road. To my mind a low unit on top of the ridge somewhere close to the notch would have been the ideal position. The plot thickens actually when you consider there could very easily be a casino involved as well.
AMAFA would have no say as the designated site falls outside of the Heritage Area.

This is terrible, what are the Zulu Royal Family thinking of, have they been bribed?

The whole Zulu Nation should rise up against this and stop this monstrosity from being built, it is an outrage to the memory of the fallen.

It makes my blood boil when things like this happen to sacred places such as this, I hope that the spirits of those brave men that died there come back and haunt those responsible for planning this utter abomination.

Why do the 'modern day' lot always want to destroy the past, they seem to revel in destroying peoples heritage and history, and substituting some other sort of rubbish or 'modern take' in its place, it is about time all this sort of thing was stopped.

You only have to follow the money trail to find out who is behind this sort of thing, it is evil, pure evil, and I hope that the Zulu people rise up against this terrible destruction of a sacred monument.

Just look at what happened to Waterloo, it is now just a big mound, am I right in thinking that it was Wellington who was very angry at what they had done to 'his battlefield', or am I thinking of someone else?

It would not be any use to expect any reaction from this so called 'government' of ours, even if we campaigned to try to stop this, they don't listen to the people any more, even though we the people are supposed to be their bosses, we do after all pay their over the top wages but they just ignore us, after all, we are just the plebs to them, in other words expendable 'cannon fodder'.

This is a total outrage, and is a very shameful deed to do to this historical battlefield, and I hope that the perpetrators of this get terrible nightmares from the spirits of the brave men that suffered and died there.

These evil people that have derived this ghastly idea should hang their heads in shame, and I hope they suffer for it, they should remember that even though this might make them a lot of money, they can't take it with them when they depart this earth, but there again, greed seems to be the 'in thing' with these NWO lunatics that will destroy our world if we don't stop them.

This must not be allowed to happen, the Zulu people must get together and try to stop this.

90th wrote:

Agree 100 % Frank , anyone who is thinking of going to Isandlwana needs to do so sooner than later , the whole area will be transformed ,  and nothing will remain of the feeling you get today walking those area's . Pete ( Admin ) time to go before it's to late !!!!
90th

90th as you are aware of my situation, it's now down to days, so after 4.5 years you could be right!!

John Y.

Is there any way at all that you think that we here in Britain can get this information out to the general publics attention. There must be many people here who are very interested in the AZW and would support a petition to get this horrible eyesore stopped or at least moved to some other place. I am sure that almost all of the members and guests on the forum will support such a petition, the problem is however, would this government of ours do anything about it?

Are there any 'legal brains' members on the forum who can give any advice on this matter, and put together a petition in protest against this destruction of an historical battlefield, is there anything that can be done to stop them building this monstrosity, after all, it is a sort of grave yard to many brave men, and is it not sacrilege to disturb the dead in a grave yard of such importence to history.

We and the Zulu people should join forces and condemn the planners and have this horrible eyesore thrown in the dustbin and stop it from being built.

Respect for the dead appears to be meaningless these days, the planners of this should hang their heads in shame, evil people.

Hi Martin
I believe it's being run by the King , basically a Sth African heritage thing to sweep away the last vestiges of Colonialism , it will irreversible so I've been told , one can only hope the locals are up in arms , even that wont halt its completion .
Cheers Martin
90th

Martin,

If you take a look at these old news items it might assist you with King Goodwill's feelings on the matter:
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Personally, I don't think the locals will be up in arms as at least some of them will be employed at the centre.  With little other employment opportunities in the area I wouldn't expect them to complain too loudly.

I fear that we have learnt too late to do anything useful to prevent this from happening.

Ken Gillings is the forum's man on the ground there perhaps he could give us an update, as he appears from the document that LH posted to have had some input in the project.

John Y.

Hopefully I will have a response from Ken later today.
I would agree with John, there will be no complaints locally and there will be no disagreement with the King either, that much has been made perfectly clear to me. I suppose we should count our blessings, at least its not beinb built on the mountain slopes or the saddle.

The deadline for submissions is TOMORROW so if anyone is going to object that is your time frame.
Objections can be sent to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If there are no objections I will later today submit the following letter of objection. I know its probably going to fall on deaf ears but I do feel there should be some form of objection.
If there any objections I will remove mention of the forum and submit in my own capacity. As the objection period closes tomorrow Im afraid time is of the essence.


Good Morning
I write to lodge my objection to the above development on behalf of myself and the hundreds of members of the Web Forum [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Historical Background

The main background has been covered in the EIA in broad strokes however the site selection has more significance than mentioned.
When the uKhandempemvu charged down from the heights the British guns and rifles cut them to shreds causing massive casualties. The impi went to ground in the hollow below the slope, this was witnessed from the heights and one of their iziduna, Ndlaka, rushed down and strode to the front in plain view of the British rifles. This brave warrior ignored the gun fire he attracted from the entire British company facing him to shout out to the huddled impi: "The little branch of leaves that puts out the fire ( Cetshwayo ka Mpande's praise name) did not order this." As he finished the British bullets found their mark and he died shot through the head. The company rose and charged the British inspiring  Sizikane kaNomageje an induna of the iNgobamakhosi to call out :"Why are you lying down? What was it you said to the uKhandempemvu? There are the uKhandempemvu going into the tents, stop firing and go in hand to hand!"
This then was the key moment in the battle when the British lines were broken and the Zulu Impi won the battle.

Location

The area charged by the uKhanempemvu and the iNgobamakhosi is the area that the proposed development will cover.

The Ground

The ground covered by the proposed structure on its eastern section is the area that the British lines first occupied and the area that the line was broken. It is this area that was most hotly contested. After the war was over the Reverend Johnston spoke of the piles of bones and artefacts on the surface. This is also the area that the first British casualties occurred from the artillery and the commands of Porteous and Wardell.
The outlying areas of the battlefield were the last to be cleared of bodies/bones it is therefore highly probable that the foes were interned in common graves.

The Graves

There were a large number of graves in that area, your research has uncovered some eleven, although one of which I suspect was the result of the Archaeological dig conducted By Anthony Pollard that established the firing line position. The map drawn in 1883 by Alfred Boast indicates a number of cairns erected in that area.

The Graves Significance.

As both Sizikane kaNomageje and Ndlaka were killed it is highly probable that their bodies lay with a large number of their men under the ground that this development will cover. Two very brave and senior men to whom the true victory of iSandlwana should be credited. Without these two men acting to ensure the orders of their King were obeyed there would have been no Zulu victory. The last victory of significance to belong to the old order.

It is because of these two, the Ultimate loyalists, that lay interned in that area that I would urge a rethink by King Goodwill Zwelithini on this hallowed ground. Surely a structure on the ridge would be more appropriate and more striking than showing this amount of disrespect to the war of 1879s bravest warriors.

Frank Allewell

Very well said Frank, you state the case succinctly but with an undertone
of deep passion.. i wonder how many tourist ' dollars ' have benefited the
local area over the last forty odd years.. it is of course a bloody disgrace
that a system along the lines of the Commonwealth Graves Commission
was not set up many years ago..i feel a deep sense of anger at this very
sad turn of events..its so sad that people forget so easily!. money, money,
money.. in a rich mans world..

Hi Frank
I agree with Les , your objection is excellently written . Although I'm not holding my breath , and the I can hear the ' Large ' lady warming up backstage !
90th

I will wait for a couple of hours to see if anyone objects if not
i will send of.
As I said Gary, probably will come to nothing but Mommy never raised a quitter.

Good on her !
90th

I am quite happy with your submission as it stands Frank, although I would not be quite so damning about motives as some seem to be (I hasten to say your submission is fine in that regard). I doubt that very much tourist money has ever reached the local population over the years and I do not begrudge them the opportunity for employment. What is wrong is the location, and perhaps there is a valid criticism that can be made of those who drew up the boundaries of the  battlefield site in the first place (my understanding is that the new centre is to be built outside of that boundary?). So your suggestion of placing it on the ridge is perhaps the most important element of the submission. It is always wise to make a positive suggestion for change rather than second guess the motives of those who are supporting the venture.

Steve

Ken Gillings has made probably the best suggestion but Im afraid Im not at liberty to divulge it yet. In terms of tourist money spreading out to the local population there are areas of employment that have been created in the hotels, shop and the museum. But as John pointed out earlier there isn't a lot of opportunity in the area, it is a rather poor area.
Cheers

If there are many dead soldiers and warriors buried there, would it not be classed as 'desecration of a war grave', and if so, could that not be used to try to stop this project or at least get it moved to another place nearby.

I wonder what Ian Knight makes of all this, has he been making any objections against this eyesore?

This Zulu King seems to be more interested in getting compen and making piles of dosh than he does about the sprits of his brave ancestors resting in peace.

Seems that Les is correct when he says money, money, money, and like I said in an earlier post, just follow the money.

Greed seems to be cause of all the worlds problems, as the saying says, "The love of money is the root of all evil", looks like there as never been more truer words spoken.

It is well worth reading the Heritage Report link posted by Littlehand which says quite a lot about the graves. For example:

2 SCOPE OF WORK
This study aims to locate and contextualize potential graves sites that relate to the Battle of Isandlwana that occur on or adjacent to the proposed development. According to Dr Ken Gillings, a historian and Anglo-Zulu War expert, the footprint is situated in the vicinity where the British line collapsed when the Zulu army attacked (pers com 8 February 2016)( see also Chadwick 1978) (Fig 5). It is therefore possible that there may well be some human remains buried in the immediate environs of the footprint. In 1928, this particular area was fenced off and cairns outside of the present perimeter fell into disrepair and in several cases have disappeared. Given that the remains that were located in June 1879 were buried 6 months after the battle, whatever could be found were pulled together in heaps and stones piled above them. According to Dr Gillings there is a possibility that Zulu and British remains are therefore buried together on the area earmarked for development. Furthermore, during 1958, a graves curator in ignorance flattened many of the cairns to make them appear as ordinary graves. These have not been maintained and relics are likely to be uncovered when construction commences. A phase two heritage assessment that includes archival research and the analysis of old aerial photographs of the battle site may therefore reveal the remains of those cairns. Based on the significance, the likely impact of the proposed development on the identified grave sites will be determined and appropriate actions to reduce the impact on the heritage resources put forward.

And

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
A phase two heritage impact assessment and survey of the proposed Isandlwana Heritage Development identified eleven graves, or the remains thereof, on the footprint. These most probably belonged to British soldiers and Zulu warriors who were killed during the Battle of Isandlwana although all surface evidence for their presence have been removed in 1958. The individual graves and graveyard have been afforded a high heritage rating. It is suggested that a buffer-zone of 10m be maintained around these potential grave sites and that the proposed Isandlwana Heritage Development be adjusted accordingly on the footprint. The second option would be to motivate for a permit to exhume these graves but this option would necessitate an elaborate community consultation process and will be time consuming. Attention is drawn to the South African Heritage Resources Act, 1999 (Act No. 25 of 1999) and the KwaZulu- Natal Heritage Act (Act no 4 of 2008) which, requires that operations that expose archaeological or historical remains should cease immediately, pending evaluation by the provincial heritage agency.

So whatever we might think, the question of the graves has been considered - and in their eyes properly. There needs to be a good argument that stands scrutiny if it is to negate the approach taken so far. As KG has already been involved I will be interested to hear what he has in mind.

Steve

Steve your not reading my statement with your usual attention. Ive based my objection on two iziduna of massive reputation being buried there rather than just graves. I do know that there are a number of 'enthusiasts' objections lodged.

Anyway my objection has been lodged. I must emphasise though, my objection is to the location not the concept. Im sure that a unit such as this built on the ridge would rival the lodge for views and position. It would in addition provide some much needed work to the area.

Steve,

I read the report the other night with interest. Do you think that a ten-metre buffer-zone is appropriate? Personally I don't. Maybe I should apply for planning permission to open an ice-cream parlour alongside the Thiepval Memorial on the Somme? Because that is what I liken this to.

Over the years I have been visiting Isandlwana I have seen many changes - the Cola advert has gone, likewise the crashed hang glider has been removed from Black's Koppie. The interpretation centre at Saint Vincent's was a vast improvement and I have seen it evolve. All of this was done in a sympathic manner. If the only the planners had troubled to looked the intrepretation centre at Culloden as an example.

John Y.

Frank

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your submission and I recognise that your drawing attention to the probable presence of the Izidunas is a good additional argument to those addressed in the study. Like you, I think the problem is location not concept. What I do not support (and I guess neither do you) is any hint of name calling as part of the reaction from the forum - it is counter-productive and won't help the case.

John

I don't know what distance might be regarded as respectful. My only point is  that the question of respect for the graves has been raised in the study and a recommendation made - as I said, we may not agree with it, but it is not something we can say has not been considered. As to Thiepval, I am not sure it is a valid comparison - countless graves on the Western Front have been exhumed and moved. Ice-cream parlour this is not, whatever our suspicions might be. Didn't you mention something about once enjoying the liquor store?  

More seriously, the study makes a point of saying that the consultations required before graves could be re-located would be lengthy (and by implication uncertain), so the recommendation that they should remain is largely one of convenience - that might well be an area to challenge. The site would not be moved but the remains would be taken sufficiently far away and hopefully memorialised. The other implication in the study is that the boundary of the protected battlefield area has become smaller over time as cairns were flattened and disappeared. That too is a very valid line of argument but probably much too late in the day to affect this planned development.

Steve

Steve,

I certainly didn't mention enjoying the liquor store, Frank's mention of it brought a wry smile to my face as it reminded me of an incident that Isandula and I shared.

I was obviously being flippant with my comparison, but that is how I view it.

John Y.

Hi Martin
I was and so were many others aware of the Cultural Centre being well and truly in the pipeline late last year , as for Ian Knight , I can tell you he voiced his concerns in at least two letters way back in Oct and Nov , the reply was as I said earlier .... '' Thanks , but no thanks '' . From what I can gather it isn't a mass grave that was found , but a Cairn which had collapsed , so it's a grave of coarse , but not one which has an unusual amount of bodies / bones etc from what I've heard .
I'm still looking into it , hopefully we'll be going back in Oct / Nov , and therefore definitely get the facts .
90th

Hi Gary mate.

Many thanks for the information my friend, much obliged.

You are such a lucky bloke to be going again to iSandlwana, I wish I had the brass to visit before this horrible thing is built, I feel it will ruin the site and spoil the solemn nature of the place, which to my mind shows disrespect for the fallen, and I know that you always say a few words of respect to them on my behalf as I cannot get there, and I will always be grateful to you my friend for doing that for me.

Battlefields have always meant a lot to me, they are places were very brave men gave their lives and died with great honour, and they should always be respected. I have never been to many of them, but the ones I have been to always bring a lump to my throat, I will always have great respect for the fallen. You know that I have been a member of the Royal British Legion for many years, and I wear my Legion badge with great pride along with my armed forces veteran badge. I have sold poppies and stood in all sorts of weather selling them, and each November I always attend the remembrance service for our fallen, and that is another event that brings the lump to my throat, as you know Gary, I am no marred arse, but without fail, it always gets me. To me, this is just sacrilege to ruin a place like iSandlwana, why don't they build this thing well away from the site and leave those brave lads to rest in peace.

Again mate, thanks for the info, I look forward to any updates you might get.

Cheers buddy.

Martin Thanks Mate and no problem .
90th