Cpl. Christian Ferdinand Schiess

Cheers Les,


I don't think we are too far apart on our opinions here. We are in agreement that the book has errors and we are also in agreement that it is a pioneering epic. That fact is undeniable.

I posted earlier on this thread:-

"I realise it was much harder to research and piece things together 'back then' and this isn't meant as an attack on Morris".

My above comment again, reflects your own thoughts on just how difficult it was to research at the time of Morris.

I appreciate that what he acheived was 'epic' and 'pioneering' but at the same time, TWOTS is not a book I would use to base any kind of factual opinion. I am not saying that everything in the book is untrue but as it is riddled with errors, incorrect interpretations and incorrect assumptions, I find it very difficult to simply assume that what I am reading should be taken as fact.



I grew up with the film 'Zulu' and by the age of 10 I knew it word for word. I used to stand in front of the tv, holding a stick (my spear), whilst shouting the zulu chants at the top of my voice. It is a part of me and my journey into my fascination surrounding the battle. If anyone was to state that it is full of inaccuracies I would tell them that, although they are correct, it is still a classic. This is a mirror image of what is happening here in our comments regarding TWOTS, the only difference being, my role is reversed, ie I am not the one defending.

TWOTS was not something that I had any experience of when growing up and it had no bearing on my interest in the Zulu war. I think this is the reason I feel no emotional or personal attachment towards it. It wasn't a 'one of a kind' for me like the film was, because there were numerous books on the subject available to me by the time I started to read up on it. For me it is one of many books on the subject that I have read over a 20 year period. It was by no means the first book I read and it wasn't 'groundbreaking' by the time I read it. I wasn't born when it was released but if this was the first book I had read in my younger days and at the time there were no others to compare it to, then I would no doubt have forged a feeling of admiration for it, like I have with the movie.


Anyway, just a few thoughts and ramblings on a quiet and boring nightshift.

I will get something up and running regarding analysis of TWOTS when time permits.

All very interesting.

Cheers
Neil

Hi Les/Neil
Ive been AWOL for a few days so missed out on some of this discussion but my stance really cant change from the discussion Les/Steve of a couple of months back. there is no doubt at all that all the adjectives originally applied to TWOTS still stand, Magificent, Ground breaking etc, and of course that bibliography. But its not really what Morris researched or who he spoke to but what he did with the information that I take issue with. Various points he states as fact, rather than opinion, have gone down in the annals as historical accuracy. Neil has done a good job in highlighting a few of the points regarding RD but there are others that have been perpetuated and significantly altered perceptions of iSandlwana. A case in point is the statements of Mtshapi ka Noradu ka Mazwana about Quetuka kaManquondo. He was blamed by Morris for the start of the pursuit of Raw across the Plateau when in fact the statement by Mtshapi places him further back joining the Kandempemvu. There are quite a few points like that where statements, and Morris had access to them, were completely changed to fit his pattern.
And that's my complaints about Morris. And its probably why he didn't use footnotes because he couldn't justify a great portion of his work. What is refered to as Humbling for him to not want to have his book refered to as history doesnt wash, it was regarded as such and he knew it. Again he wouldn't defend the critisism, because he couldn't.
The above issue with Quetuka by the way has been carried forward even to this day by all the popular authors but having spent hours searching through the archives, PMB and Durban trying to find the source he refered to I could only come up with one quote and that repudiates Morris completely.

Just my twopence worth.

Cheers

Were there any other authors apart from Morris carrying out research on the Zulu War at the time or before he did.

Hi ctsg
I think D.Jackson was writing at the same time or near to it . Possibly one of the Sth African authors were producing a book on the Colonial Regiments from that period , I'm not 100% sure about that though ? .
90th

Thanks 90th.

I thought Jackson based his work on Morris, albeit using more trusted sources.

Zulu Battle Piece: Isandhlwana by Sir Reginald Coupland - 1948. FIRST EDITION

CTSG.
Here's some publications with dates. I believe used by Morris
Scroll down when you open link.
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LH, you have just replicated what i posted above!
i scanned the work involved..you lifted it wholesale
of the net..the point please?.

I believe CTSGs question was: 'Were there any other authors doing research at the same time." The lists posted were effectively the sources used by Morris.
TWOTS was printed in 1965, Jackson: 'Isandhlwana 1879 the sources re-examined' was published in three parts March 1965, September 1965 and December 1965. ( Journals of the Society for Army Historical Research )
I wouldn't agree that Jackson used TWOTS as a basis, the depth of his research precludes that and I would suggest that his research was completed before the publication of TWOTS.
In Terms of other researchers busy at the time, Norman Holmes springs to mind, as does EA Ritter, EP Watt, Peter Davis and PR Kirby. Not to sure when Julian got involved. Then of course there was the South African connection with George Chadwick, Borquin, Colin Webb and John Wright etc. Morris spent time with Borquin I believe, and picked up the phrase 'Coffin shaped rock' at the same time.


Cheers

Thank's Neil/ Frank, you both express your opinions well.
i could come across as a Morris apologist. which indeed
i am not! in my mind he has, and never has, anything to
apologize for.. it has however become a modern trend to 
' knock ' Morris, when there are so many authors who truly 
deserve a kick up the backside for either jumping on the 
bandwagon, or more usually just for sloppy ineptitude...

When i read and digested your replies i recognized that you
both had agenda's, and not an agenda in the bad sense of
that phrase..you Neil have recently finished what i am sure
is a deep in depth study of the particular part of the great 
war which was of interest to you..and you Frank undertake
to make people aware of everything topographically re-
garding the Isandhlwana Battlefield and surrounding area.
what i'm really tring to say is that you are both researchers
and historians in your own right, so maybe you at least would
acknowledge how much work Morris did..if only 10 per cent of
the book was accurately correct that still leaves the other 90.
below is part of another very recent opinion, that i agree with.. 

 When he 
was working on it it was far more difficult to access the sources and 
visit the sites than it is now, so it was a huge effort to attempt 
anything that comprehensive. A lot of the sources in SA weren't 
catalogued, and he had to do everything by writing letters - it's all 
much easier now with the internet. He understood, too - and you have 
touched on this - that iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift are part of a much 
wider picture, and that you can't make sense of them without telling 
something of the story of the rest of it. I do remember seeing him on a 
TV interview years ago, talking about the Cold War - he said that the 
CIA had completely missed the Russian intention to put up the Berlin 
wall - 'we just looked out the office window one morning, and there it 
was!' I always wanted to say to him 'that's because you were too busy 
thinking about Zulus!'
    I think it's all too easy to criticism him - he has been an 
essential building block of our knowledge of the war. It's been easy to 
climb over him - to some extent his success was his undoing, because it 
stimulated a whole generation of historians who wanted to know more, 
and could use him as a base to start from. It's much easier to climb 
over somebody else than start from scratch!

The above was private to me, i leave it here hoping that i am not..out of
order reproducing that part.                                  cheers Les

Les
Difficult to argue your points on the macro picture of the book, as you well know the minutae of the period is my thing hence my following up on all the details Morris expouses. That leaves a lot to the imagination, but yes overall a damn fine publication.
I would have wished though he had the forsight to say either: 'Yes. it is a work of historical importance'! Or:' Its a generalisation of the period based on historical fact'. I suppose in that regard the future historians are going to look back on the likes of Mike Snook and say the same. I delivered a series of lectures a few weeks ago and in open time I was asked a number of questions, they all related to episodes from HCMDB and were believed by the questioner to be fact. So I do believe that historians and authors have a duty to their audience (Could include welsh film makers in that I suppose) to point out what is supposition and deductive reasoning and what is fact.
But overall I would hate to disagree with a forum member mourning the showing of his favourite football team!!!!!!!!!!!!

An additional note on Schiess is that in January 1881 he was serving as a Sergeant in 'C' Troop, Bakers Horse the same time Jesse Mayor was serving as a Trooper in the same Troop. The troop was commanded then by Captain A.B. Martin who commanded them in a mounted charge at Qumbu on 3 December 1880. Several other Zulu War Veterans were serving in the same troop, several being former FLH men.

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Homeward Mail from India, China and the East 10 January 1884

The man of mystery.
Death reported on 14th December, buried at sea on his way to England, his passage paid for by subscription after he was found destitute in Durban, having possibly sold his VC.
Subsequently seen as per the newspaper headlines.
Then again seen by Penn Symonds in November 1891 an Allahabad when he told PS that he was scared of loosing his VC and so had 'Sent' it on to Australia where he was heading to.
Penn Symonds was at RD at the same time as Schiess and would have heard all the stories and quite possibly got to know the men there. In his journal PS is very definite about the identity of the man he saw.
Thanks Andy.

Hi Frank

What does Penn Symonds quote about Schiess?

Andy

Morning Andy
As below.
" I saw Corporal Scheiss in November 1891 at Alahabad, India. He had been working in a jewellery shop, and was just going to Australia. Being afraid of loosing his Victoria Cross, he had sent it on ahead by registered post to his destination."

It would seem that there is evidence from the Duke of Connaught article that in 84 the Victoria Cross was in India so that could validate Scheiss presence. As I believe PS would have would possibly have recognised him the question then would have been who was the destitute shipped out of Durban?

Hi,

Looking at it (apart from PS possibly knowing FS for a short period of time 12 years previous) the main evidence for his identity is missing (i.e. the actual VC) in both cases - entrusted to the Post Office or pawned.

Is Scheiss's medal in the NAM? If so is there any kind of provenance for where is has been since 1879 before being obtained by the NAM?

Having looked on VConline.org.uk, it claims his VC was on him when he died, presumably on board the shop....if the medal was on the fella on the ship, PS must have been mistaken unless of course the fella on the ship somehow obtained the medal and tried to use it for his own nefarious purposes.....and the India FS was so embarrassed that he had to sell his VC, he claimed to PS to have sent it in the post....

Ta

Sherlock Brown

Hi Sherlock
There is the evidence of the Duke of Connaught, his attention was diverted to Schiess by the sight of the medal being worn.
I would need to do some further digging but i have a gut feel there was a report somewhere that he had sold his medal in Durban.
PS doesnt mention the medal unfortunatly.
So against the 'rumour' that a) he sold it or b) he was buried with it is stacked the actual sighting of it in India.
A 2 pipe problem Holmes?

His medal is in the NAM. It featured in their Ashes and Blood catalogue back in 2001 but no provenance mentioned.

Steve

So it would seem that a search in Australia would be in order.

Possible timeline.
Scheiss awarded the VC by Wolseley on 3rd feb 1880
Serves in Bakers Horse January 1881
Goes to India and serves in the EIR Volunteers.
Is seen by Connaught in December 1883
Conjecture: He returns to South Africa and falls on hard times.
Is buried at sea 14th December 1884
Is recognised by PS in 1891 also in India, PS was at that time in OC 2nd Battalion SWB and was in India.
Could PS have got it wrong? He was stationed in India in 1884 so it is conceivable that he got his years mixed up

All speculative I know but it is a solution

Frank Allewell wrote:

Is recognised by PS in 1891 also in India, PS was at that time in OC 2nd Battalion SWB and was in India.
Could PS have got it wrong? He was stationed in India in 1884 so it is conceivable that he got his years mixed up

Hi Frank
Has PS mixed up any other dates in his journal? Probably not.

Andy

Hi Andy
I have to admit I havent looked. Julian is busy looking through the full journal at the moment, possibly he may have a comment.

It is surely very likely that Pen Symons did in fact meet Schiess in India. He must have had a conversation with Schiess in Alahabad to know he had been working in a jewellers shop, that he was going to Australia and had sent on his VC. We know that Pen Symons put some considerable effort into his account of RD in 1879 and probably spoke with Schiess then, or may even have come across him at the hospital before Chelmsford moved up to Isandhlwana. So I don't think it was a case of mistaken identity. I see no reason to believe that PS got his dates wrong either, particularly as he went through a drafting stage before finalising his report.

Steve

Hi Steve
The note about Schiess was added after completion, as were a number of others. There seems to be a direct access route for the NAM to the VC which would tend confirm the death aboard ship. The Duke of C report again sounds solid so how can one connect the dots. I would full agree that its logical to suggest that PS had a personal contact with Scheiss and would therefore be able to identify him. everything fits apart from the PS date.
Conundrum time.

Earlier in this thread, back in 2011, Barry mentions that he has copies of letters from Schiess seeking employment. Any clues there I wonder?

Steve

Hopefully Barry will see and confirm.

Please excuse but I have copied this from a similar topic on the Schiess 'Mystery' from way back in July 2016...

The piece about the Duke of Connaught also appeared in the Graphic, 2nd Feb 1884

The Duke of Connaught presenting war medals to the 13th Bengal Lancers at Meerut
"...A curious incident occurred on the Duke's arrival at Allahabad. While inspecting the guard of honour of the East India Railway Volunteers his quick eye detected the Victoria Cross on the breast of one of the men, Mr F.C. Schiess. With that readiness and good-feeling so general with the members of the Royal Family the Duke at once stepped up to him, and inquired kindly how he had earned that distinction. 'At Rorke's Drift, South Africa,' was the answer..."

Natal Witness February 6th 1885
Death of a Zulu War VC
"It may be remembered that Corporal Scheiss VC, was sent home from this by the troopship 'Serapis'. Word has now been received of the poor fellow's death. It is thus chronicled in the Portsmouth Times.
'Corporal Scheiss served as a volunteer during the last Zulu War, and was present in several engagements, including Rorke's Drift, where he showed conspicuous gallantry, and was awared the V.C.
At the close of the war he returned to Natal, where for some time he existed in a state of absolute want. At the time of the arrival of the Serapis his abject condition led to the inhabitants to raise a sum of subscription to pay for his rations for the voyage home. He was taken on board, but his long exposure told on him, and about the 14th December he died on board."

[cause of death being pneumonia - according to his death certificate]

Natal Witness 4th Nov 1899
Writing in response to an enquiry as to what became of Cpl F. Schiess, a correspondent replied
"...that he remembered reading years ago, both in the Witness and the Advertiser, of Corpl. Schiess (of Rorke's Drift fame), dying in India destitute."

A second correspondent replied some days later stating that Schiess had been sent back to England and had, he believed, died at Netley or Haslar. Interestingly this correspondent also stated that he had photographs of Schiess and that he was prepared to send copies to any interested parties!!!!

VC at the NAM...but no sign of his campaign medal - It was issued in 1882 with no record of having been returned to the mint

It would be very unusual for the NAM not to specify the source of the Schiess VC. The NAM is a reasonably modern institution that inherited some of its collections from the old RUSI museum when they were dispersed. I cannot see the Schiess medal in the RUSI catalogue for 1916, by which time I would have thought it was back in official hands.

Steve

Hi,

I would feel better with the timeline if PS had got the date wrong and that he met CFS in 1884 - both were in India around that time.

I wonder if CFS went out of his way to see PS or was it a chance meeting - probably the former (maybe CFS was hoping for employment or a reference).

I would tend to think that (if he was like me) PS would not recognise CFS unprompted (maybe 5 years later but 12 years later?) however PS was still an officer of the 24th, and that may have jogged CFS memory, when he heard the name.

I assume/guess more RD colleagues could have been in India at the time - Bromhead, Frank Bourne (was in India somewhere, about that time) etc

In my capacity of 'Master of the Bleeding Obvious' - both men can not be Schiess (I always tend to spell that wrong - which is a naughty word in German) unless PS is wrong about the date......

Cheers

Sime (MBO)

Ive spent the last few hours looking through PS for the numeral 9. Everything but. The reason for the search is in the date he met Schiess the 9 is written with a strange flourish. But no comparison anywhere to confirm it is a 9.

There is an interesting thread on the old RDVC forum that is referenced from the Wickipaedia page for Schiess. It notes that the current Swiss descendants of Schiess were eventually tracked down and although they were clearly aware of him they were not very forthcoming - more work was required. Many of the arguments on here were rehearsed then although no reference was made to Pen Symons account, which at that time was still being kept closely under wraps in Brecon (although I suspect that at least one of the members knew all about it!). Much about the supposed photograph of Schiess as well.

Steve

Steve as an aside and considering your avitar there is a gun currently on auction thats reputed to be the one your man shot himself with.

My wife is firmly of the opinion that the sight of so many bloody yellow sunflowers is enough to make anyone shoot themselves!

Steve

Just looking back through my file on Schiess - In the late 1960s a Mrs E. Sleicher and her son Frank Alfred Schiess, (a grand nephew of Cpl Schiess), made an unsuccessful attempt to claim his V.C. [The NAM acquisition number for the VC is No. 5811-96-1].

At some point I also made a note of an unconfirmed story that Schiess had sold his V.C. for 10s. in the 1880s. I can't remember where that came from though!

As to the Serapis - According to newspaper reports, 11 'indulgence passengers,' (including Schiess - who had joined when the ship stopped in Natal to disembark the 13th Hussars), had obtained a passage home. In additon to Schiess, there were a further 13 deaths reported during the voyage.

There are 45 registered deaths on Serapis between 1844 and 1890 but Schiess does not appear - do we know the precise date of sailing from SA?

Steve

Not sure on the exact departure date from SA

However it looks like Serapis arrived at Port Natal on, or around, 29th November 1884 from Bombay

And Scheiss is 'buried' on the 14th December.

It looks very much like the NAM acquired the Schiess medal in 1958 - where was it before that I wonder?

Steve

Hi,

According to the oft repeated tale, CFS died on board ship and when preparing his body for committal or otherwise going through his belongings - there was the VC which was returned to the 'War Office'

In the late 1950 the NAM was conceived being set up in 1960 (?)

Where could the VC have been from 1884 to 1950/60s? - in the War Office or RN archieves (I belive the ship was a RN one) or did the captain 'look after' it (Captain Archibald Lucius Douglas, maybe) - I spose no one had ever 'found' one before......

It obviously sounds a good story - an alcoholic 'tramp' dies on board a ship and is later found out to be a hero of perhaps the most famous battle of the era?

14 deaths on one voyage? Was that normal? It sounds a bit much for a journey from SA to England....

Cheers

Simon