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Zulu Dawn Lt Col Pulleine Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col Durnford Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected It might be wise to picket the hills
 
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 7:55 am

Hi Frank,

I have been trawling through my ('modern') books about the incident and most of them seem to have the 'Daly Wave' mentioned - most seem to reference it at the same time as one of the NNMC departed but as you say, there are no sources of who witnessed it nor who Daly was waving to.

I wonder if it is just a myth, perhaps to reinforce the Victorian idea of how a military officer should face adversity/death (Younghusband shaking hands, the officer doing his shopping list, etc)....Maybe Daly was a notoriously cheerful fellow in the regiment?

Cheers

Sime


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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 8:15 am

Morning Simon
Im still trawling through all the old accounts, with no luck, Possibly Morris? IF it did occur I would think it was at a time when he still had something to be cheerful about, on the firing line just before the general collapse for instance.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 8:25 am

My apologies to Morris fans, nothing there. Mac and Shad neither, although they do describe him as having a genial disposition.
So a trawl through the colonials will be in order.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 8:27 am

Quoted in a letter by James Sivewright. Not NNH.
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 8:33 am

I was hoping that it was from Brickhill - a fair bit of his account deals with the retreat of the NNMC (and stand on the Saddle area) but he does not mention it.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 8:38 am

Thanks Julian

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 9:23 am

Julian
Can you put the quote into context? Was he the one waved at, did he witness it or was he 'told' about it?
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 9:27 am

Hi Julian/Frank,

I am having trouble finding out anything about JS at isandlwana - I am only doing on line research and he is mentioned in connection with the battle but I can not find his role in battle (if any)

any ideas?

ta

simon
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptySun May 12, 2019 9:33 am

Last night, I checked the original source: It's only mentioned "them".
"Them" seems to indicate "fugitives".
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Fred
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 4:49 pm

Regarding Pulleine, there are several statements that he was shot. Here's what I have:

Captain Gardner (Letter to Col. Glyn, published Sheffield Daily Telegraph:

"I then returned to Colonel Pulleine, but about five minutes later I observed the mounted men retreating- there were then some 10,000 before us. The enemy continued to advance steadily, and soon enveloped our right as well as left, and completely surrounded us.
I saw all was over; our men fought well, but both Colonel Durnford and Pulleine were shot; the guns attempted to retire, but the road was occupied by the enemy; they were overturned, and all the gunners were stabbed."

Private Bickley
"I found a pony standing in the path which I mounted and shortly after caught up Lieutenant Melvill who was carrying the Queen's Colour. Mr. Coghill afterwards joined us and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulleine had been shot."

Lieutenant Curling, RA.
"The Zulus were in the middle of the crowd, stabbing the men as they ran. When we had gone about 400 yds., we came to a deep cut in which the guns stuck. There was, as far as I could see, only one gunner with them at this time, but they were covered with men of different corps clinging to them. The Zulus were in them at once and the drivers pulled off their horses. I then left the guns. Shortly after this I saw Lt. Coghill, who told me Col. Pulleine had been killed."


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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 4:50 pm

Also, to confuse the issue regarding Anstey:

General Mainwaring in a 1921 Letter
"...when we were camped near the spot the following September we spent from a week to ten days burying the dead, all down to Fugitive’s Drift. These included some well-known officers, such as Surgeon Major Shepherd (I think his name was) RAMC, the originator of St John’s Ambulance, Major Smith RA, Lieutenant Anstey 24th Regiment etc., etc."
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 4:55 pm

And to confuse it even more...

The Daily News correspondent Archibald Forbes, in an article published in The Express and Telegraph on October 18, 1880, wrote that he had discovered Lieutenant Anstey’s remains “on the woeful slope of Isandula, where the poor brave lad, I am right sure, had gone down with his face to the foe.” It should be noted that in his initial dispatch on the first May expedition to Isandlwana, Forbes discussed in great detail going over both the route to Fugitive’s Drift and the main Isandlwana camp.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 6:02 pm

weekend warrior
Archibald Forbes was in error.
To summarize Studies in the Zulu War vol V pp. 5-7:
14.3.1879
Anstey’s body, discovered by his clothing and still recognizable, was found to the left rear of the 1/24th camp and identified by Col.-Sergt. Tigar.
20.6.1879
Anstey’s body found a little apart from the others in the area of the stand in the rear of the 1/24th camp and identified by Second-Lieut. Armitage during Black’s burial party expedition. He was easily recognized by his face and buried in a shallow grave.
Sep-Nov 1879
Capt. T. Anstey surveyed battlefield and surrounding country whilst a 2/24th burial party was on site (see your reference to Mainwaring). Armitage assisted Capt. Anstey in identifying his brother’s grave. Anstey’s body is recovered from the field and his brother conveyed it to England.
10.4.1880
Anstey is buried in Woking.
Forbes could not have discovered Anstey's remains in October 1880 as they were removed in April that year.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 6:07 pm

Yes, I have those as well, as well as your brilliant article in Studies in the AZW. It's really quite interesting, however the Mainwaring account from 1921 does confuse the issue a bit as Anstey is placed back along Fugitive's trail. RE the Forbes statement, it was published in October of 1880 but would had to have been a recollection from his initial visit to the battlefield (May of 1879 I recall?)

I've been digging into the eyewitness accounts of Isandlwana along with Neil Thornton and the amount of contradictions are impressive.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 24, 2019 6:14 pm

weekend warrior
Mainwaring visited the burial site in Sep 1879. Look at Mainwaring's text carefully - he does not say where he found Anstey's body. He merely says that he spent a week to 10 days burying the dead [from the battlefield] all the way down to FD.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 1:12 am

According to Noggs, Mainwaring was present at the May expedition as well, but for the life of me I can't find any statement by him other than this 1921 letter and his account of the infamous cave. Odd, for a man of his rank, he doesn't seem to have written much on such a famous disaster in British military history. Robinson is the Daily Telegraph correspondent, according to Colonel Harness, and he is the one who clearly has Anstey on the Nek. I've had no luck in tracing more details regarding him.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 12:33 pm

I would put it to you that the rear of the 1/24th camp and the area of the nek are in close proximity to one another. Robinson, in his description, might not have been so bothered about the accuracy of his terminology and thus his description of where he saw the body is entirely in keeping with where the body was actually found, buried and recovered.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 4:11 pm

Agreed, that would be the logical conclusion for Robinson's dispatch. However, do we know of the existence of any further Mainwaring letters or accounts of the expeditions/burials other than the two listed above? He could be quite enlightening as one angle I'm working on is how many of the 24th fought their way out along Fugitive's Trail; In addition I believe Noggs specified that he was the one who identified Major Smith.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 4:15 pm

Also related to Mr. Alewell's fascinating thesis is the following:

Private Wye of the 1st King's Dragoon Guards claims... "We went up further amongst the waggons... One of our officers recognized the bodies of the Colonel and his Lieutenant, lying beside each other, and we buried them." Leicester Daily Mercury, 19JUL79.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 7:40 pm

I still don't see any inconsistency even if the unnamed lieutenant were Anstey. However, for those that do, let me ask who was best placed to recognize Anstey, an unnamed officer of the KDG, Mr. Robinson the newspaper reporter, or Anstey's brother?
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 7:54 pm

My point is regarding the positioning of Colonel Pulleine being somewhere near the wagon park, nothing in regards to Lieutenant Anstey. I posted the KDG Trooper's account to add to Alewell's list of possible identifications of Pulleine. That unnamed LT found near him? Who knows?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:07 pm

Weekend Warrior,

You are of course assuming that the Colonel is Pulleine.

There was of course another Colonel in the camp, Anthony Durnford, and the body of Lieutenant Scott, Natal Carbineers, was found nearby.

Just my thoughts.

JY
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Certainly true... and wasn't Scott found under a wagon?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:19 pm

I think you are putting too much store into Muirhead’s account.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:22 pm

I'll double check but I don't think it was Muirhead? He had the disgruntled tale of Shepstone hiding under dead bodies which I think we can readily discount!
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:41 pm

Weekend Warrior,

An extract from Archibald Forbes’ account published in The Illustrated News 12th July 1879.

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JY
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 8:49 pm

Bonsoir,
Robinson was effectively the special correspondent of the Daily Telegraph.
However, the account published in the Daily Telegraph which mentioned the discovery of Anstey's body (Daily Telegraph 18 August 1879 ) was written "From a correspondent" (burial party June 1879).
Not sure that this correspondent was Robinson...
According to the Daily Telegraph, the account about the Burial party of May was written "from our special correspondent" -probably Robinson-.
Cheers
Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 9:09 pm

About Lt Scott's corpse found under a wagon:

"Durrant Scott lay partially hidden under a broke piece of a wagon, and had evidently not been mutilitated or touched after his death. He had his patrol jacket on, buttoned across, and although the rest of the body was only a skeleton, yet strange to say, the face was like in life, all the hair being still on, and the skin strangely parched and dried up, although perfect . Both thse bodies [Durnford and Scott)] lay right in the midst of the rest of the young colonists who fell gallantly..."
Natal Witness, 28 May 1879
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 9:13 pm

Aha! That's the one... Our young Pte. Wye implies finding this Colonel and his erstwhile Lieutenant in the wagon park, I think Mr. Whybra is very much onto something with his identification of such as Pulleine and Scott!
Do we have any more info on Robinson? Did he ever do a memoir like Forbes did?

Best,
Mike
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyMon Oct 14, 2019 9:43 pm

Mike,

C’mon you’re the one writing a book on the subject. You need to study mo

Philip Stewart Robinson, (1847-1902), born in India the eldest son of a H.E.I.C. Army chaplain.

He joined the staff of The Daily Telegraph in 1877.

He reported on the Zulu, Afghan & Egyptian campaigns.  In the latter campaign he was reporting for The Daily Chronicle.

He toured the United States and Australia giving lectures on his career.

His health and his career took a turn for worse whilst covering the Spanish-American War in Cuba.

The titles of his published books do not indicate any obvious reminiscences of his time in South Africa.

I hope that helps?

JY


Last edited by John Young on Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Missing letter - a)
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 15, 2019 10:05 am

Pulleine and Scott?
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 15, 2019 1:00 pm

Excuse me, Dunford and Scott!

John Young, thank you, that's perfect!
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 15, 2019 7:37 pm

Hi,

Do the accounts specifically mention the wagon park?

The camp of the 1st 24th was on the side of the road associated with AWDs stand under 'Blacks Kopie' - would all of the battalion wagons have been on the Nek or could some have been in the camp.

Never been involved in a last, first or in fact any kind of 'stand' - I wouldn't know but I have read plenty of accounts (of various battles) to say that 'stands' were made by trees, rocks, wagons etc - anything that can possibly protect a flank or rear even momentarily.

Do you think that the body found under a wagon & tarpaulin (well preserved) and the body found under a bit of wagon (well preserved) is too much of a similarity not to be the same man - who ever he was?

Ta

Sime
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 16, 2019 9:32 am

Battalion (or more specifically) company waggons were behind each camp. Commissariat and Transport waggons on the nek ready to go back and forth.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 16, 2019 9:05 pm

Hi Sime,

There are also accounts of wagons being driven some distance out of the wagon park ostensibly in an unsuccessful attempt to escape. As for using a wagon as cover? I have no doubt it happened; cut off, surrounded by angry warriors, I'm sure many men sheltered underneath or around a wagon to protect their 6; I think the scene in Zulu Dawn where the young Tommy does just this, fighting to the last round, as a ring of truth to it. There are stories of Seaman Ainsley selling his life dearly, back to a wagon. I don't doubt that Lieutenant Scott may have done the same.
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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 5:54 am

Look at the famous sketch of the return of the cavalry, tends to support the discussion.
Theres always confusion with the tents being indicated under the mountain, when in actuallity the wagons per company were araigned along the front with tents lower down. so the wagons of the 1/24th would have been parked to the North and East of Mahlabamkhosi. In the famous photos there are wagons shown on top of the saddle straddle down the western slopes and also up against Mahlabamkhosi, These would have been as described by Julian but nor forgetting that Durnfords wagons had just arrived and would not have had time to be placed so the possibility of confusion amongst those wagons could have been great. McPhail also had his wagons ready to start back to RD. Brickhill was also pretty active at the time.
For those with the correct design soft ware it could be interesting to map out the shape of a waggon and try and place them all in the area.
Some key sizes to consider. Length of body 18ft width 5 ft 10 inch. In draft with 16 oxen to pull a 29cwt wagon total road space required would be 32 yards, or between 40 and sixty including spacing.
Reversing was generally not an option so to get out of a 'park' position the wagons had to have space to move forward.before turning away.
Mule wagons werent as large, around 21yards. But they only carries around 2000 pounds and a large portion of that was food for the mules themselves, around 15pounds a day per mule x 8 mules per wagon.
Arguably there were around 220 wagons at isandlwana.

Cheers


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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 8:52 am

When Erskine arrived on the nek with Durnford's ten waggons he described how he and his 16 men went directly to the front and left his waggons under the care of McCarthy. With no-one to direct him, and assuming that he might be ordered to follow Durnford at a moment's notice, he presumably had his convoy wait on the track, awaiting orders, in the position they were in when they arrived.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 10:05 am

If McCarthy did bring his wagons through the line they should have been easier to track down for Ammunition supply? At that point in the day no body really knew what was on its way, I would imagine that McCarthy would have been directed by one of the transport officers.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 17, 2019 1:54 pm

Weekend Warrior
Try a reverse engineering view point. We have some pretty emphatic descriptions of relative body locations and indeed a map or two. Do a Google survey and the potential positions tend to resolve themselves. Add in the shape of the old road, more than enough drawings of that. Then look closely at the actual cairns in the area.
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   The Western Slopes - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 23, 2019 10:44 pm

ymob wrote:
Bonsoir,
Robinson was effectively the special correspondent of the Daily Telegraph.
However,  the account published in the Daily Telegraph which mentioned the discovery of Anstey's body (Daily Telegraph 18 August 1879 ) was written "From a correspondent" (burial party June 1879).
Not sure that this correspondent was Robinson...
According to the Daily Telegraph, the account about the Burial party of May was written "from our special correspondent" -probably Robinson-.
Cheers
Frédéric

“We hear that two special correspondents are already making arrangements for going home. The Daly Telegraph thus loses the services of Mr Phil. Robinson....".”Natal Winess, 14 June 1879.
Cheers
Frédéric
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