WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu.Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Rusteez RIP
The Old Store and Road EmptyToday at 12:31 pm by Frank Allewell

» Up-to Date new members. 2018/2019
The Old Store and Road EmptyToday at 11:11 am by Frank Allewell

»  Locket was sent to Helen Shepstone.
The Old Store and Road EmptyToday at 9:39 am by Catiline63

» Lieutenant H C Young, 2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent
The Old Store and Road EmptyToday at 8:41 am by Julian Whybra

» John Moreland
The Old Store and Road EmptyYesterday at 4:22 pm by 1879graves

» H Reed 29/838 58th Foot.
The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Dec 09, 2019 10:14 am by Totofo

» F. W. David Jackson
The Old Store and Road EmptyTue Dec 03, 2019 8:53 pm by ADMIN

» Stoker John Merritt, HMS Boadicea
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Dec 01, 2019 6:36 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» 25B/ 1371 Private Thomas Morrison 2/24 Foot, Rorke's Drift Denfender, Facebook Sale
The Old Store and Road EmptyWed Nov 27, 2019 7:18 pm by 1879graves

» New Book on AW Durnford
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 10:28 pm by bill cainan

» Zulu War kit bags
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 9:29 pm by Magnus

» Trooper Walter Granger's account of Isandhlwana.
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» The search for Gardner's mysterious German
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 12:52 pm by John Young

» Help in identifying this Foreign Service Helment
The Old Store and Road EmptySun Nov 24, 2019 11:36 am by simond9x

» James Garnett
The Old Store and Road EmptySat Nov 23, 2019 6:20 pm by 1879graves

Lt. Augustus W. Hill, 57th Regt.
The Old Store and Road IMG-7742 Mac and Shad] (Isandula Collection)
The Zulu Wars - Twilight Of The Zulus - Episode 3 - Full Documentary
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
littlehand
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
ADMIN
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
1879graves
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
rusteze
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
John
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
impi
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
1879graves
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
beeza
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Totofo
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Saul David 1879
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Catiline63
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
rai
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Kenny
The Old Store and Road Bar_leftThe Old Store and Road BarThe Old Store and Road Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share
 

 The Old Store and Road

Go down 
AuthorMessage
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 10:07 am

From Frank.

"Ive been meaning to do this for years, establish the old store site. Finally got round to doing it last weekend.
Its controversial as hell as there was an old trading post alongside the road/track many years ago. That area is now a clinic. But, that old store was different in shape and size to the attached photos. The original shop/boarding house was owned by a Mr Parr. The newer one by a Mr Lutins. Built on different areas. Whats quite key about this is that the road/track position has change over the years so people tend to think that Durnfords Donga is much further South than actual. That impinges on his retreat and subsequent defence points. My possible site is 250 metres North, more towards Popes position.
The attached are the two photos in question."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2245
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 10:38 am

Bonjour Frank and Steve,

I wonder what are the implications of your hypothesis about our knowledge on Pope's alleged perilous situation after the retreat ordered by Durnford...
In "England's sons" , Julian wrote the following comment:“'Pope's...bugler sounded 'Retire'”. (The Washing of the spears, p. 375). According to Morris the source of this comment was Hammer , account now untraceable, allegedly in the KCAL (E.S. p.52 n°78 Hamer)"
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 11:55 am

I should add that the 'evidence' is not merely two photos. There are historical photos and maps that locate the road across the saddle and down towards the Nyogane Donga. The building on the right of the photo is actually an accomadation that housed at one point Rider Haggard.
And yes Fred it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge, not least reducing the size of the battlefield.
Ive spent time at the Kcal trying to locate that quote from Hammer without success.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2245
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 12:10 pm

It seems to me that your hypothesis raises questions:
-on a combined retreat of Durnford and Pope (in connection with the alleged Hamer's testimony);
-on the reality of a "gap" between Durnford's mounted troops and Pope's position.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2245
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyThu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm

Frank,
You wrote, "it affects a great deal about the action along the donga and the rocky ridge".
Your comment is it also valid about Durnford's action at "Conical hill"?
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 4:48 am

As a recap.
This the store history I posted a number of years ago.
While reading ‘Diary of an African Journey ‘by Rider Haggard I came across this paragraph:
‘Mr Parr, however, the owner of the store where we slept gave me a number of cartridge cases and the head of one of Durnfords rockets. He has another rocket dug out of the bank of a donga near the store, which is still unexploded.
The references intrigued me on a number of issues, where was the store, why would there be rockets there and who was Mr Parr, possible a relative of the more famous Henry Hallam Parr?

The last question first: Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain, but around 1901 at the age of 16 he became the manager of a store and hotel at iSandlwana owned by a Mrs Jean Flindt, a resident of Nqutu. Mrs Flindt held a 999 year lease over the property.
At some point Charles Parr joined the Zululand Mounted Rifles, I would speculate and say the influence of Mr Flindt had something to do with this. He served in the 1906 rebellion with the Zululand Mounted Rifles and was awarded the Natal Rebellion Medal with 1906 clasp.
Once the rebellion had abated Charles returned to the iSandlwana store but with a little more determination to build a future he sought to sublease from Mrs Flindt. This he managed to do after wading through the Government red tape in December 1907.
This would then answer the second question as to where the store was located, this circa 1910 photograph shows both the store and the hotel.The store in question no longer exists, I believe there are still signs of the foundation walls evident on the banks of the donga but comparing a then and now photograph the site is pretty identifiable.
That would then to a degree answer the last of the questions, how did the rockets end up in the donga. Three possible answers to that question, firstly they were dropped by a retreating warrior, second they were washed downstream in the occasional flash floods or thirdly they were dumped there when Durnfords men retired on the camp. Lt Harry Davis mentions that they did retrieve two boxes of rockets but had to dump them. Possibly the donga was the area they were dumped.

Mr Parr eventually moved on and died in 1953, still keeping store on a farm not to distant from Pietermaritzburg.

Mrs Flindt was overtaken by the desire of the Government of the day to create Native and Separate white areas, the forerunner to Apartheid, and lost her lease.
The store itself was demolished some time before 1933 and a second structure built slightly to the South by a Mr Lundin, this structure lasted until pulled down to make way for the Day Hospital facility presently on the site.
Mr Lundin himself lived on a homestead on the Western slopes of iSandlwana, around half way down the slope towards the Manzimyama Stream.
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves

Posts : 2984
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 10:26 am

Frank Allewell wrote:

The last question first:  Mr Charles Evelyn Parr was born in 1885 in Nottingham England, the son of G Parr of Cliff House, The Park, Nottingham. How and why he arrived in South Africa I haven’t been able to ascertain,

Hi Frank

Could this be your Man?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Andy
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
1879graves

1879graves

Posts : 2984
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 10:30 am

Hi Frank

Another for your records

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Andy
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 12:12 pm

Well done Andy, just confirm for me the date of the 'Johanesburg', cant decide if its 1900 or 1903. I have a document with again an indeterminate date, that looks like 1901 for his arrival, but 1903 would fit with his further service. Nice to fill in the gaps after he left iSandlwana, but what would be of equal interest is if he returned to Natal or left behind a child. I do have the evidence that a Charles Parr ran a farm stall in PMB. I also seem to recall that Brett knew of the family as well.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves

Posts : 2984
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 12:35 pm

Hi Frank

'Johanesburg' 17th June 1903.

Salute
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyFri May 24, 2019 3:05 pm

Thanks Andy.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2198
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 3:35 pm

Frank
Two things for you to mull over.
First, Parr is described as having dug the rocket out of a donga near the store. This doesn't have to be Durnford's Donga. The donga in question could have been anything up to half a mile away - one of the headwaters of the Nyogane for instance, where a mule might have ended up and off-loaded its cases. And didn't Davies send two of his men to try and retrieve a mule loaded with rockets south of the Conical Koppie?
Secondly, and here I refer to sources quoted on pages 65-66 of Studies in the ZW vol. V, I agree with you about the route of the old track and where it crossed the donga but note that Davies wrote that when they retired to the donga they "found the Natal Carbineers, the Natal Police and the mounted infantry to our left, while to the left of them were the 2/24th [Pope/Dyer]" and Cochrane wrote that "Here a few mounted men, Carbineers, Natal Mounted Police &c reinforced our right". In other words the NNH was 'leapfrogged' to extend the line even further to the south in order to counter the right horn's southward encircling movement. This might, reasonably, have taken Durnford's defence line up to and beyond the traditional place where the track crossed the donga.
The first quotation reinforces your argument FOR the arrival of Durnford's men much further north than previously thought while the second quotation reinforces the traditional location of Durnford's men at the point before they retreated to camp. It would also suggest that further extension of this line would have made the defence of the donga impossibly thin and without weight in a frontal assault - hence the necessity for withdrawal to the camp to make the defence perimeter more compact.
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7325
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 4:23 pm

Hi Julian
Your first point, yes it could have come from anywhere really. If the store was in the place Ive speculated on it would put it considerably closer to the koppie and arguably close to the point Davies rescued the rocket mule.
Thee positioning of the 'groups' at the donga is a whole other direction from the points I will be making regarding why Durnford chose to arrive back at camp at the road crossing. There are various speculative points connected with that thought depending where the road/donga intersection actually was.
Sorry for being abstract but you are aware of the reasoning. Suffice to say that I believe that the men asisting Durnfords force arrived in two distinctly seperate groups and at seperate times.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2198
Join date : 2011-09-12

The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road EmptyMon Jun 03, 2019 4:34 pm

Yes, I agree, as per Granger's account on p. 65 of the above - Scott's group and Gardner/Bradstreet's group.
Back to top Go down
Online
Sponsored content




The Old Store and Road Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Old Store and Road   The Old Store and Road Empty

Back to top Go down
 
The Old Store and Road
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: