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Zulu Dawn Lt Col Pulleine Lord Chelmsford assures us that there is no way the Zulu can get around us without our knowing. Col Durnford Zulu generals have a nasty habit of doing the unexpected It might be wise to picket the hills
 
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 Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd

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Bill8183



Posts : 50
Join date : 2015-11-08
Age : 51
Location : Sunderland

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PostSubject: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySat Jul 27, 2019 8:30 pm

Julian,

On page 28 of the above book you examine the similarities of 25B Pte George Wyer and/or (George) William Hudd and wonder if further research would establish if they are the same person. Are you aware of the entry to the 1/24th paylist October 1879 to March 1880 page marked as 55? There is listed 210 Wyer George with Hudd written above and in the remarks column it states "to Army reserve 26 Jany (1880) name changed to Hudd" It would appear he is indeed the same person, in checking the paylists I have not seen any entry for Hudd only Wyer. The entry as a recruit in the April/June 1874 Depot paylist again states Wyer, no listing for Hudd so it would appear he was known as Hudd only after discharge.

I have no idea where Norman Holmes got Hudd from. See image below, second entry from top.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 9:02 am

Brilliant. I missed that entry. Well done. I'll include this info with your permission and acknowledge you as the finder Bill in the next edition. Thanks.
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Bill8183



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 12:46 pm

Not a problem, hope it helps.

Just to add to the mix, you mention that he may have been a member of D or G Company, I believe at least initially he was in B Company sent to St John's.

I was flicking through Phillip Gon's "Road to Isandlwana" and he mentioned that Capt. Harrison his two Lt's and 85 OR's were sent on-board HMS Active in August 1878. (Do you know where this information originates from)? A quick check of the paylist shows the Officers were at sea for 12 days, explicitly mentioning East London to St John.

The only men in the 1st Bn to have any days at sea also stated 12 days. The total came to exactly 85 Nco's and men, including 210 Pte Wyer George. A quick check of Duttons medal roll (I'll cross check with Holmes and my scans of the actual medal roll to confirm later) shows 78 of those men were awarded the 1877-78 clasp. 5 were 1877-8-79 including Wyer, 1 No clasp and 1 1879 clasp only

Now it's possible the medal roll is incorrect in these cases (as is proven in others) or some were indeed transferred to other Companies. One for certain was, 565 Sgt Upton George was KIA at Isandlwana. Sadly the loss of the 1st Bn records will obviously preclude 100% accuracy.

Bill
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Kenny



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 2:10 pm

These are the notes from lan Baynham Jones:

George Hudd served as Wyer.

Died at 1 Kemp Road, Winton, Bournemouth, Dorsetshire, England 25/2/1923 aged 67 years. Buried in Wimborne Road Cemetery, Bournemouth. Grave No.Q2/6N (Plot 2 Row Q). (Named as George Hudd - Also buried in the grave is Georgina Hudd died 1946).

Winton Tradesman’s Death. Funeral with Military Honours: The funeral took place on Friday at the Wimborne Road Cemetery of the late Mr. George William Hudd of 1 Kemp Road, Winton. The deceased who had for 20 years carried on the business of boot and shoe maker, was taken suddenly ill whilst engaged in his shop six weeks ago, with an attack of cerebral haemorrhage, from which he never recovered, his death taking place on the 25th inst. Mr. Hudd was 67 years of age, and was well known and highly esteemed among the residents of Winton. As a young man he joined the South Wales Borderers and served in the Zulu Campaign of 1877-8-9 for which he was subsequently awarded a medal. He was one of the 42 survivors out of over 700 men who were suddenly attacked by the Zulus. Pte. Hudd was wounded in the leg, and owed his escape to hiding in the bushes. When the survivors returned to England they were met at Waterloo Station where Queen Victoria shook hands with each man. On leaving the Army, Mr. Hudd joined the Constabulary at Hastings. After a few years service he came to Winton where he opened a boot and shoe business. A few years ago on the occasion of a review of National Servicemen at Littledown, the Duke of Connaught shook hands with Mr. Hudd and congratulated him, saying he was proud to meet one of England’s heroes. Mr. Hudd was an active supporter of the Conservative cause, and an enthusiastic member of the Winton Conservative Club.
The funeral on Friday was accorded military honours, the coffin being covered with the Union Jack and drawn on a gun carriage supplied by the R.E’s., of Christchurch Barracks. The Rev. A. D. Phillips officiated. The mourners were: The widow, Mr. Walter Hudd (son), Mrs. Foster (daughter), Miss Doris Chamberlain (granddaughter), Mr. F. Chamberlain and Mr. R. Foster (sons-in-law), Miss Ivy Chamberlain (granddaughter), and Mr. Syd Edmonds. Mrs Chamberlain (daughter) was unable to attend owing to illness. Floral tributes were sent by the following: His devoted wife; the sons and daughters; the grandchildren; sisters Lottie and Vi; the Winton Conservative Club; Parsons and Sons, Boscombe; Mrs. Toms and family; Syd; A and T. Spicer; and Mr. and Mrs. Parker and others.
There appeared in the United States of America in 1987 a publication that, by self-admission, leaned very heavily (and entirely without permission) on The Silver Wreath. The compiler of the work (Toby Giese) in question advances numerous theories, none of which is substantiated by actual documentary evidence. One such claim concerns the presence at the defence of Rorke’s Drift of Pte. Hudd. The hypothesis contains constantly expanding suppositions propounded to cover a multitude of untenable situations, and which finally terminate in so-called fact. In a newspaper article Hudd, who served in the 1st Battalion 24th Foot, makes no such claim. In-fact he professes to have been a survivor at Isandlwana, at which action he claims to have received a “… wound in the leg…” Obviously this claim is equally without any validation, as is his statement that “… they (the survivors) were met at Waterloo Station where Queen Victoria shook hands with each man…”
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 2:15 pm

Bill
Re Gon, I shall have to go back through my notes...all I can say is that it rings a bell.  From your research it does look as though Wyer plus 4 may have transferred from B to D or G.

Kenny
I absolutely agree - hiding in the bushes indeed!
Julian
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySun Jul 28, 2019 5:00 pm

Kenny
I had a conversation with Toby Giese, after spending a long time trying to track him down, he flatly refused to discuss any of his 'work' or its potential plagiarism. He threaten me quite bitterly with 'action' if I made public any accusations that his 'work' was borrowed from other sources. His infamous copy of the B Company photo with all the names annotated came from his deep research into facial recognition systems. He again refused to expand on those systems and maintained he stood by all the identifications. I asked he e mail with a letter confirming that fact, he promised that would happen but some two years down the line i still wait.
Frank
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Bill8183



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptyFri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 am

Managed to acquire this book to see what the fuss was about, it was only a fiver so what the heck. Like to see the variable quality of what's out there.

Only had a quick look through and I think the term "clucking bells" comes to mind.🤔
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptyFri Aug 23, 2019 2:33 pm

Bill
I was lucky. I managed to sell my copy within 2 weeks of buying it when it first came out.
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Bill8183



Posts : 50
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PostSubject: Re: Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd   Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd EmptySat Aug 24, 2019 10:03 pm

Well as I said, it didn't cost much. For good reason.

I have found one or two modern authors have a few... eccentric interpretations shall we say, but this? I have not seen such shoddy "research". The first photo I saw was the 2nd Battalion Officers in Secunderabad. When it was captioned "1st Battalion" and Pulleine identified as Bromhead told me all I needed to know about the quality of the book.

Almost humorous in a way, but there you go.

Bill
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