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 Crimes back in England

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Crimes back in England   Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:08 pm

Is anyone aware of a zulu war veterans, ending up at the end of a rope back in England for crimes committed it civilian life.
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90th

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PostSubject: crimes back in England   Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:26 pm

hi littlehand.
Cant say I have heard of any troops swinging on the Gallows in the U.K or anywhere for that matter.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:38 am

Nothing in my records at all littlehand. I had a relative sentenced to death in 1727 for stealing a sheep in Durham. " Black sheep of the family" I suppose.

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:21 am

There used to be an old saying in England.
You might as well be hung for sheep, than a lamb.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 am

Hi Littlehand,

I don't know about hung, but I have read a couple of them were imprisoned, John Manley (Glos), and William Neville (Lancs).

Cheers
Bookworm
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:17 pm

Bookworm. Do you know what their crimes were.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:22 pm

Hi Dave

John Manley (34}, soldier, was charged with criminally assaulting Eliza Jenkins
William Neville was tried and convicted of assault.

1879Graves
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:00 pm

Hi littlehand and Dave

I know of one other, a JOSEPH FISHER (33) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 30s., the moneys of Our Lady the Queen and found GUILTY (He had served twelve years in the Army, and had a medal).— One Month's Imprisonment.

Hi Bookworm, I hope I got the other two correctly.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:10 pm

After doing some digging, I have found another one, but I do not know which regiment he was with during the Zulu War, but the report states he took part in the Zulu War.

JAMES SLATER (32) , Feloniously wounding Jane Slater, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm. Found Guilty of unlawfully wounding.— Six Weeks, Hard Labour.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:33 pm

What was the name of the chap, we recently discussed who was hung for murder in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Did we ever establish whether or not he was in the Zulu War.
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90th

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PostSubject: crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:55 am

hi john.
The chap you are looking for was named Butler, I have ordered the book which is titled
" MURDER IN THE BLUE MOUNTAINS " . Alas , the book is proving as elusive as its main
character :lol!: . I think it will arrive in the next 2-3 weeks as I purchased it from the U.K
and its coming by sea. I think I ordered it about the 1st sep , they can take up to 12 weeks
to arrive by surface mail. Then I have to find time to read it. :)
cheers 90th.

ps. It is the blue mountains in Australia , not the blue ridge mtns in the USA. :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:15 pm

Of course, Butler was probably not his real name - in fact, no-one is sure what his real name was, at least 12 others have been attributed to this gentleman!
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:24 pm

The one I can think of is George Hampden Whalley, Liberal MP for Peterborough and Zulu War veteran (C Troop Lonsdale Horse commander) who got nine months of hard labour for theft in I think 1884
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:03 pm

Well done prm502

I just looked at his trial after seeing your post and you are correct, nice work.

GEORGE HAMPDEN WHALLEY (33) and THOMAS HERBERT (19) , Stealing, on the 19th of June, divers goods, value 200l., of Mary Gamble, in her dwelling-house. Both men were Found GUILTY .
WHALLEY— Nine Months' Hard Labour and HERBERT— Three Months' Hard Labour. :)

Proceedings of the Central Criminal Court, 20th October 1884
He arrived in Australia on a ship, the Duke of Buccleuch, in about 1885 or 1886, having changed his surname by deed poll to White. According to shipping records at the State Archives in Brisbane, he arrived with a wife, Eleanor and an infant.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:54 pm

Well Littlehand you gave me a run for me money with this one.

Dowdle, Michael
Michael Dowdle was a forty year old pensioned Irish soldier who worked as a quarryman and was convicted at Manchester Assizes for the murder of his wife at Whitworth, near Rochdale. Ellen Dowdle had left her husband in the summer of 1899 due to his increasingly quarrelsome and brutal behaviour. On 12th August, she went to stay with friends who lived less than a quarter of a mile away. On l9th August, Dowdle called at the house and found his wife alone. He made a passionate plea for her to return home and promised to mend his ways. She refused and after repeated attempts also failed, his temper got the better of him and he attacked her. At that moment, one of their friends' children came home and witnessed the attack. He rushed out into the street and found a policeman to whom he pleaded: 'Come quick, Mr Dowdle is hacking up his wife's throat with a carving knife.' The officer hurried to the house where he found Dowdle walking towards the police station, followed by a crowd of children. Dowdle had served with gallantry in the Zulu war but was sentenced to death in November. He was hanged by James Billington and William Warbrick in Manchester on the 6th December 1899..


Just out if Interest Allen, Thomas
Twenty Five year old Thomas Allen was a Zulu who had arrived in Swansea on a Cuban ship on which he served as a steward. On 10 February he called into the Gloucester Hotel, a dockside pub frequented by sailors, the landlord of which was Frederick Kent who was thirty eight. At 4am the next morning, the landlord's wife heard someone strike a match in their bedroom and woke her husband. Kent climbed from his bed and began to struggle with the intruder, who attacked him with a knife. His wife reached under the pillow for their revolver but hesitated to use the gun for fear of shooting her husband. She finally got the stranger in sight and shot him in the leg. He fled from the building, leaving Kent mortally wounded on the bedroom floor. Detectives found a sailor's cap which had been lost in the fracas. They soon traced it to Allen who was arrested when found hiding in the nearby docks. He was taken into custody after nearly being lynched by an angry public. It was alleged that he had hidden on the premises after closing time, and police suspected that he may have been guilty of other recent unsolved crimes in the area. He was hanged by James Berry in Swansea on the 10th April 1889
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:12 pm

Admin

Where the hell did you find Dowdle, Michael from ????

Now I have a problem, there are two M Dowdle's listed on the medal roll. One listed for the 21st Reg and the other in the 88th. Now where do I put this info on my database !!!!! :lol!:

Do you know which regiment he served with in the Zulu War?

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:46 pm

This is all there was. I just knew this would get you going. I bet you don't get any sleep tonight. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:29 pm

Hi Admin

Many thanks for the sleepless night :lol!:

But I have found his last resting place. He was first buried at Strangeways Prison and lay there until 1991, then his body was exhumed and cremated, his remains were buried in a plot with others in Blackley cemetery.

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PLOTS C 2710 AND C 2711 AT BLACKLEY CEMETERY THE RESTING PLACE OF THE MAJORITY OF PRISONERS EXECUTED AT MANCHESTER PRISON (Strangeways)
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:49 pm

Hi Littlehand

The answer to your original question is now Yes,

Michael Dowdle was hanged for the murder of his wife, Ellen on December 6th 1899 at Strangeways Prison. His grave details are in the post above.

I have not been able to tell which Regiment he served in yet, but it is either the 21st or 88th. Hopefully as time goes by, we will find out.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:17 pm

Thanks for all your replies.
1879Graves, I did not think that those found guilty of muder and hung were allowed to be exhumed and reburied on hallowed ground. Was their a reason why he was exhumed.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:24 am

Any luck with his regiment yet 1879Graves. It would be interesting to see if we can find any mention of him during the Zulu War.

G.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:48 am

The cases of Michael Dowdle (1899) [HO 144/279/A61461] and Edward Simmons (1902) [The Times, 7 June 1902]. If provocation could often be redescribed in terms of insanity, drunkenness—when viewed in the form of delirium tremens and other physical disorders associated with persistent drunkenness—was even more suitable to such redescription. See the cases of F. H. Watts [The Times, 17 Nov. 1900], James Bottom [The Times, 14 Sept. 1901] and John Devlin [The Times, 27 June 1906], in the last of which the Medical Officer of Brixton Prison acknowledged under cross-examination that "delirium tremens is insanity" (Devlin was found to be insane and committed). Judges individually began to supplement or even replace the M'Naghten Rule by Stephen's suggested "mental disease" standard: in the case of Samuel Redfern (1903), Mr. Justice Channell told the jury after citing M'Naghten, "he himself was accustomed to—and should continue in so doing until a higher authority decided against him—extend the law as there laid down slightly in favor of the prisoner by adding that if from disease of the mind a person is unable to consider what is the difference between right and wrong, then it may very fairly be said that he does not know what is wrong." The Times, 5 Dec. 1903. Such "extension" was formalized in 1915, when in R. v. Fryer (24 Cox CC 403), Mr. Justice Bray explicitly abandoned the M'Naghten Rule in favor of "mental disease.

G.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:25 am

Hi Littlehand

After the 1990 riot at Strangeways, the prison had to be virtually rebuilt. During the renovation it was necessary to exhume the remains of the prisoners executed there and at the New Bailey Prison and re-inter them elsewhere.
The Grave Register shows that two plots were purchased by the Governor of H M P Strangeways. The first entry for grave number C 2711 shows that 60 caskets of cremated remains were buried in this plot in 1991. The second entry for plot number C 2710 shows that 51 caskets of cremated remains were buried in 1993.

Hi Mr Greaves

No luck with his regiment yet, but will keep looking. :)
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:07 pm

Quote :
The Grave Register shows that two plots were purchased by the Governor of H M P Strangeways

1879Graves do you know if the remains are still within the walls of the prison.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:39 pm

Hi John

All the bodies that were buried within the Walls of the Prison are now in Plots C 2710 and C 2711 at Blackley Cemetery.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:17 pm

Any luck with his regiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:23 am

Hi Admin

Not Yet scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:18 pm

Just a quick update on this one.

I have now found out that both M Dowdle's had the first name Michael Mad which does not help :lol!:

The only other information I have come across is that Michael Dowdle of the 21st was reported At the Battle of Ulundi on the 4th of July 1879 he was reported severely wounded. His regimental service number was 1589.
On the original medal roll, under Remarks, there is this, but I cannot read it scratch
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No Trace Of ????? ??????? ??? 142
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PostSubject: Crimes back in England   Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:02 pm

1879graves

By comparing similiar notations on other pages I think I have deciphered the handwriting.

Dowdle, Michael 1589 "no trace of issue" "discharged" "A.G.List 142"

Hope this helps.

Petty officer Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:31 pm

Hi Tom

You are a Star Idea Thanks for that.

I have come to the conclusion that Michael Dowdle (the murderer) was in the 88th Regiment of foot.
Michael Dowdle was a forty year old pensioned Irish soldier who worked as a quarryman and
The Connaught Rangers The 88th Foot ("the Devil's Own") was an Irish Regiment of the British Army.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:30 pm

Its taken a while. Well done, Graves and Tom. A good one, to start the new year.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:11 pm

I never give up :lol!:

I now have to change my mind as I have found a reference to Michael Dowdle being a Fusilier which now puts him in the 2nd 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers Regiment.

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:31 pm

Hi All

I have been digging a little deeper :lol!: now I know which regiment he belonged too.

Michael Dowdle was born at Carrick-on-Suir, Tipperary, Ireland in 1858. His trade was a Labourer.

He joined the 21st Regiment on the 14th Feb 1878, he had served previously as a Gunner with the Tipperary Artillery.

He was only 20 years of age when joining the 21st and was 5 feet 7 1/4 inches tall. His chest Measurement was 3 feet 1 1/2 inches. He had grey eyes and dark brown hair. Michael did not have any distintive marks and gave his Religious denomination as Roman Catholic.

Michael was at the battle of Ulundi on the 4th July 1879 when he was hit by a bullet from a Martini Henry in the right thigh. This wound would finish his army career.
He was sent back to England to Netley Hospital and was discharged from the Army on the 20th April 1880 after serving only 2 years and 67 days with the Colours.

When he was discharged from the Army, he had one Good Conduct Badge and a 4th Class School Cert.

and the rest is now history.


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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:56 pm

Another Mystery Solved. Nice one Graves. I will see if i can find some more.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:13 pm

Ive just been reading through the topic, very informative, and alot of information found from just a few names.

Well done to all involved. Idea



Joe
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:43 pm

I remember reading some time ago - sorry I can't remember the source - that someone who had won a medal in the Zulu War had got in trouble with the law, was sentenced to a prison term, and had been stripped of his award. He later committed suicide, presumeably because of the disgrace. Does anyone have any further information on this?
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:50 pm

Tom. I think the person you are on about, won the vc in another British War, He fought in the Zulu war, Deserted in the Boer-War, lost his VC. and died in a work house. Can't remember his name. Hopefully someoen else might.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:32 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:24 pm

Why is it i can never find information like this. scratch . Littlehand your amazing.. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:36 am

Hi Littlehand

Many thanks for giving me something to cut my teeth into on my return.

Charles Everard Canham is not listed on the Medal Roll.

I have found his service record and he was in the Army, Army Service Corps.

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Charles did kill his wife and son. Please see his Court Record.

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agree
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:31 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:25 pm

JOHN EDWARD MCLOUGHUN, Sexual Offences > bigamy, 10th April 1893.


"439. JOHN EDWARD MCLOUGHUN, Feloniously marrying Regina Adda during the lifetime of his wife.

MR. HORACE AVORY Prosecuted, and MR. LEONARD Defended.
ANN JANE HART . I am the wife of James Hart, schoolmaster, of St. Mary's School, Scotch Parade, Athlone—I was present at the Baptist Chapel on 1st April when my sister, Rebecca Walsh, was married to John Edward McLoughlin, the prisoner, by the minister of the chapel, the Rev. Thomas Berry (The certificate was here produced to the witness, but MR. LEONARD objected to it.)—I was the principal bridesmaid, and witnessed the ceremony, which was in the usual form—I have been to a good many other weddings—after the ceremony I saw the parties sign their names in the register; the prisoner signed his name, I am sure—after the marriage they lived together as man and wife—the prisoner went to Ashantee, I think, in 1873, having lived with my sister as man and wife up to that time—I visited them three times—he was away a few months, and came home in 1874—afterwards, when he was in Egypt, I wrote one letter to him—his wife did not go with him, she was an invalid—she is in Court now—I know her writing—these cheques are all endorsed by her.
Cross-examined. I was about twenty-three at the time of the marriage—I saw the prisoner going up to the desk with two other gentlemen to sign a book—the minister, Mr. Berry, gave him the book to sign—I don't know if that was the only book he signed—the prisoner separated from my sister in 1873, and came home early in 1874—they did not live apart by mutual consent after that; I used to inquire after him, and she said she heard regularly from him—they lived from 1874 to 1878 in London after he came home from the Ashantee war—I do not know that they were living separately in England by mutual consent.

REGINA ADDA . I made the acquaintance of the prisoner in Cairo, and on 18th February, 1886, I went through the form of marriage with him at the British Consul's office, Cairo—this is the certificate—at that time he represented himself to be a batchelor; I never thought he was a married man—I saw the description he gave of himself in the register—after the marriage we both signed the book at the Consul's office—he lived with me for two years in Alexandria—in 1888 he went to England, leaving me behind—after about nine months he returned with the troops, and remained for a fortnight, and then went back to England with the same ship, leaving me behind—after about twelve months I came over to
Aldershot, and lived with the prisoner for a little time—in February, 1891, I took proceedings against him before the Magistrate, the result being that a separation order was made, and an order compelling him to maintain me.
Cross-examined. Q. Is it not against your wish that the prisoner is having this charge brought against him?—A. Unfortunately I don't know what to say—I have entreated, and begged the prosecution—after the separation order I became reconciled to the prisoner, and lived with him again—I always thought I was his wife—as long as I have been in England he has contributed to my support—when I was illtreated by him he said to aggravate me, "I did not marry you, you married me"—when proceedings were taken against the prisoner to make him pay for my support, he did not say a word about his not being married to me—he has not treated me well since the proceedings at Aldershot—he has supplied me with money lately—I have gone back to live with him within the last few months; my position was so sad—I was all by myself in this country—I thought he was some companion to me—he has treated me kindly as a companion.
Re-examined. I complained of his assaulting me at Aldershot, and he was convicted and fined for it, and bound over to keep the peace for six months—I have a child, three and a-half years old, by him—I have no father or mother, no home, no money—during the last twelve months he left me in Egypt he only sent me £10—the Magistrates made an order for 30s. a week for me and the child; I believed then I was his wife—I heard a rumour that he had another wife and children in England, and then I communicated with the police.

CHARLES EDWARD MCLOUGHLIN . I live at Bristol, and am an accountant—I am the prisoner's son—my mother lives at Bristol—the prisoner stopped there for a night three or four years ago—he has been in the habit of writing to my mother and contributing to her support up to last November; since then he has not sent anything—all these cheques (produced) appear to be drawn by the prisoner, payable to my mother, and endorsed by her—they extend from 1884 to 27th September, 1886, which is the date of the last—he was in regular correspondence with my mother throughout.
Cross-examined. I have seen my father write—cheques never came from Egypt several at a time, or in bundles, but always separately; one at a time as far as I remember—from 1885 onwards, I can safely say they never came more than one at a time—they were not antedated, or never more than a month—about 1886 my mother was in very weak health; she had a sort of nervous illness at the end of 1886—she never suffered from heart disease—grave fears were not entertained as to her life either at the end of 1886 or the early part—the prisoner has always contributed to my mother's support and mine—my father and mother were not living apart by mutual consent, he was away on campaign—he was in the Zulu and Boer wars—at the Cape he was gazetted honorary captain on account of his distinguished services—at Dover he lived in barracks, and my mother was then in London—after the Boer war he was not at home for more than six months at the most—during that six months my father and mother did not live apart by mutual consent—they did not live together—when he was in London he was with us.
CHARLES WRIGHT (Detective-sergeant L). At five o'clock on Saturday. I arrested the prisoner at Farringdon Street—I said, "Is your name McLoughlin?"—he said, "Yes"—I said, "I am a police-officer, and arrest you on a charge of bigamy"—he said, "It is all rubbish; has she done this? I promised to meet her here, as she said she wanted to buy something in the market. I did not think she would do this; I admit it is true"—I took him to the Police-station, where he was formally charged—he said, "I understand very well what it is."
Cross-examined. Sergeant Leonard was with me when I arrested him—he is here—the prisoner did not say, "Did she tell you she was going to meet me here?"—he did not say, "Therefore you admit it is true."
The prisoner's statement before the Magistrate: "I deny that I committed bigamy, because I thought the other one was dead at the time I was married at Cairo."

MR. LEONARD submitted that there was no, legal evidence of the first marriage, as the certificate was signed by Mr. Eland, the minister of a Baptist chapel, and was taken from a private register kept by his predecessor at the chapel, and therefore—(1) the register from which the certificate was copied was not a document of a public nature, which the officer who was supposed to keep it was under any duty to keep, and was not produced from any proper custody; (2) no certified copy could be given in evidence under the Evidence Further Amendment Act if there was any statute which enabled its contents to be proved otherwise; (3) the certificate was neither an examined copy, nor was it certified as a true copy by the officer to whom the original was entrusted. It was necessary to prove that the marriage took place in the presence of a Registrar, or, in his absence, that it was performed in a registered place. In the case of Baptists and Independents the only person who had any right to keep the record of a marriage was the Registrar, and his presence was as necessary as the presence of a clergyman would be in the Church of England, and the copy of the certificate should have been produced from him. There was no evidence that the requirements of the Act of Parliament had been fulfilled; there was no evidence that the marriage was performed in a registered place, or that the Registrar was present. Q. v. Cresswell; 1. Q. B. D. Q. v. Craddock; Foster and Finlayson. Q. v. Mainwaring; 1 Dearsley and Bell. Q. v. Savage; (2) Cox, 178, Q. v. Povey; 32 L. J. M. C. Q. v. Collins; Sessions Paper, 5th Session, 1883. Morris and Miller; 4 Burroughs.

MR. LEONARD also urged that as to the second marriage there was no evidence as to the law of Cairo, and that the certificate was not produced from the custody of the Consul.

MR. AVORY contended that the certificate of the first marriage was sufficient evidence of the ceremony, it being signed by the minister to whom the register was entrusted; that apart from that a witness had deposed to being present at the ceremony, and further that a prisoner's admission of having committed bigamy had been held to be sufficient evidence against him. The RECORDER ruled that there was evidence to go to the Jury.
GUILTY —Case Reserved.
Before Mr. Common Serjeant.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:39 pm

1879graves wrote:
After doing some digging, I have found another one, but I do not know which regiment he was with during the Zulu War, but the report states he took part in the Zulu War.

JAMES SLATER (32) , Feloniously wounding   Jane Slater, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm. Found Guilty of unlawfully wounding.— Six Weeks, Hard Labour.

"JAMES SLATER, Breaking Peace > wounding, 12th September 1892.

"852. JAMES SLATER (32) , Feloniously wounding Jane Slater, with intent to murder. Second Count, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.
MR. HUTTON Prosecuted, and MR. GEOGHEGAN Defended at the request of the COURT.
JANE SLATER . I live at 14, Osborne Cottages, Acton—the prisoner is
my husband—lie had been away to South America fourteen months—on Monday, 22nd August, I was awakened by my hand being out with a knife—I was undressed, and in bed—the prisoner was standing by the bedside over me, with the knife in his hand—I said, "Good God, Jim, what have you done?"—I was so frightened—he turned round to the table and out his throat—I called the landlady, who opened the door, bat was so frightened she ran downstairs, and I ran after heir—I went in next door, where the policeman came.
Cross-examined. The prisoner walked over to the table—he has been a soldier—he went through the Zulu war—I did not go to South America; I did not know where he had gone—I have one child three years old next month—the prisoner had had some drink that night—I never gave him any provocation—I did not hear him say anything about Deeming.

GEORGE HEATH (477 X). On 22nd August, about ten o'clock, I was called to Osborne Cottages, Acton—I went into No. 13 first, and saw the last witness—she had a large cut between the thumb and first finger, which bled very much—after I had washed her hand and stopped the bleeding, in consequence of what she told me, I went into No. 14—I saw the prisoner held on the bed by three or four men, who said he had tried to cut his throat—that was downstairs—I sent for Dr. Jolly—I searched the room, and found this knife at the bottom of the bed—I showed him this knife, and said, "I shall take you to the station and charge you with stabbing your wife"—he said, "Very well"—at the station he made this statement; I made a note at the time he was charged: "My wife was in bed; I said to her, 'I am going to have a game at Deeming to-night'; I took the knife from the table and went towards her, and said, 'Jennie, are you prepared, like Deeming's offspring?' I then pointed the handle of the knife to her throat. She threw her hands up, and then said, 'Oh, Jim, see what you have done. 'I then caught hold of her wrist and saw it was bleeding, and said, 'Mate, it is an awful cut. 'I then turned round and cut my own throat with the same knife. "

SAMUEL LAIRD JOLLY . I am a medical practitioner, of 19, Gold' smiths' Gardens, Acton—between ten and eleven on 22nd August I was called to 14, Osborne Cottages—I saw the prisoner—he had two small incised wounds in his throat two-thirds of an inch in length, slight wounds, only through the skin—I saw his wife in No. Id—she had an incised wound on the back of the hand, the dorsal surface between the finger and thumb extending into the superficial faciæ and into the muscular tissue; it was bleeding much—that could have been caused by a knife similar to this produced—it would require great force to inflict the wound, which was two-thirds of, or nearly, an inch in depth—I have attended her since—she has recovered.
Cross-examined. The wound was deeper in the centre—he asked me to attend to his wife first; he was in drink—I said to him he was a foolish fellow to drink so much—the woman throwing her hand up, and its coming in contact with the knife, would not cause the wound; the force would not have been sufficient.
The prisoners statement before the Magistrate: "It was an accident, that is all; it was no intention on my part. "
Guilty of unlawfully wounding.— Six Weeks, Hard Labour.
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:42 pm

1879graves wrote:
Hi littlehand and Dave

I know of one other, a JOSEPH FISHER (33) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 30s., the moneys of Our Lady the Queen and found GUILTY  (He had served twelve years in the Army, and had a medal).— One Month's Imprisonment.

Hi Bookworm, I hope I got the other two correctly.

"

JOSEPH FISHER, Deception > fraud, 15th December 1884.

"151. JOSEPH FISHER (33) , Unlawfully obtaining by false pretences 30s., the moneys of Our Lady the Queen.

MESSRS. POLAND and MONTAGU WILLIAMS Prosecuted.
WILLIAM SHAW . I am a sergeant of the 4th Battalion East Surrey Regiment—I was stationed at the Winchester Tavern, Great, Suffolk Street—on 13th November the prisoner spoke to me in reference to an advertisement in Lloyd's newspaper—I said that it referred to men who had previously served and had been discharged with good characters after twelve years' service—I told him if eligible he would receive 30s. on being attested at Southwark Police-court, and he would have to re-enlist for four years—he said that the conditions suited him, and handed me this' parchment certificate—I told him I expected an officer up that morning, and I would show him the certificate (This certified the prisoner's discharge on the termination of his first period of limited engagement, having served five years abroad in the Zulu war and at the Cape, and that his conduct had been good. Signed, J. Heneage, Colonel; Major Mears, Commandant)—in about an hour I received notice from my officer that he was not coming up, and told the prisoner so, and that I doubted the genuineness of the certificate—he said that if I wanted any reference there was his pocket ledger, pulling it out of his pocket—I took him before tha medical officer, and he was attested, and I paid him 30s., which I should not have done if he had been an indifferent character—he would not have been eligible—the certificate was returned to me with authority to apprehend him.
Cross-examined by the Prisoner. When you were out on bail you sent me a letter asking my advice about going to the Adjutant and trying to arrange it—I told you it was in the hands of the civil authorities, and there it must remain—you told me you had got two certificates of dis—
See original 
charge, and had made away with the first as it ought to have been better than "indifferent," and wrote "good."

BOLTON MORSOM . I am Major of the 2nd Yorkshire Regiment—I was Commandant at Gosport between September, 1882, and June, 1884—during that time I signed a discharge for private Joseph Fisher, of the 2nd Northamptonshire Regiment—his character in the original discharge was "indifferent"—I know no commanding officer named Heneage or Meurs—the prisoner's commanding officer at that time was Colonel Bond—no one was authorised to sign discharges at Gosport at that time but myself.
Cross-examined. I believe the body of it to be the writing of one of the clerks in my office, but I do not recognise the signatures.

JOHN WHITWILL (Policeman G 329). On 19th November, about six p.m., I took the prisoner in Chelsea, and took him to Southwark Police-station—he was charged with forging a document and obtaining money by false pretences—he said "I put the first name I thought of on that paper"—I have served on him in prison a notice to produce his original discharge.
Prisoner's Defence. On my discharge I came to London, and when I received my proper discharge, which I acknowledge burning, I received this parchment, and it was not filled in—I felt aggrieved at the discharge I received, and filled that paper up, as I thought I might be stopped as I had been seen about in soldier's clothes, and I must plead ignoranon between "indifferent" and "fair"—I thought they wanted men who had completed their time and bad left without a bad character, and, foolish like, I took the certificate, which I had signed for my own protection—if I had not shown it they would have written to the depot and known all about it—I gave my proper name and address—I did not try to evade the law, and I am very sorry for what I have done.
GUILTY (He had served twelve years in the Army, and had a medal).— One Month's Imprisonment."
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:29 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:48 pm

There is no Roche or Cunningham listed for the 17th Lancers on the Medal Roll.

Back to looking for more information on this one
scratch You need to study mo
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90th

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PostSubject: Crimes back in England   Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:17 am

In the Roll there is a Lce Corp Gunn ? , B . 1014 , Medal with Clasp 1879 , possibly the question mark may be for the word '' Cunningham '' ????. As Forsyth has noted its a difficult Roll to read . See what you think Graves ? scratch scratch
90th scratch You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:12 am

Hi 90th

You got me searching the 17th Lancers roll in the hope that you could be onto something, but alas, this is what I have found.

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A very short surname which is hard to read.

So back to the books for me.
You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Crimes back in England    Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:25 am

Joker Sorry Graves ! No
90th Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Crimes back in England   Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:23 pm

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GALLANT NEW ZEALANDERS.
Auckland Star, Volume XLVIII, Issue 256, 26 October 1917, Page 5

We now know, his first name is Robert and was a Major.  Retired at the rank of Bevet Major.

Lord St Vincent battle of Abu Klea 17th January 1885 16th Lancers.
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