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Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
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 LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.

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90th

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PostSubject: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:43 am

hi all.
I have read many books on Isandlwana and it seems no one ever found PULLEIN"S BODY , with
the exception of " MAORI " HAMILTON - BROWNE who states in his book , A LOST LEGIONARY
IN SOUTH AFRICA . He came across Pulleine"s body and recognised him immediatly. I dont have this
book as many people seem to think it as a "scurrilous yarn". At the moment Im reading THE GLAMOUR
AND THE TRAGEDY OF THE ZULU WAR by W.H. CLEMENTS printed in 1936. And he states " CAPT
OFFY SHEPSTONE , searching over the ground where he remembered having noticed some bodies lying
on the night that Lord Chelmsford"s column bivouacked there on the 22nd Jan , at the mouth of the neck in
the rear of the camp , stumbled on the corpses of COLONELS DURNFORD and PULLEINE , and also that of
LT DURRANT - SCOTT of the Natal Carbineers " . SHEPSTONE gives more details on Durnford and Durrant - scott
and also how they were surrounded by corpses of Carbineers , NMP, Artilleryman and other imperial and colonoial
units. BUT no further mention of Pullein"s body . Now thirdly , THE HILL OF THE SPHINX ,THE BATTLE OF ISANDLWANA
by F.W.D. JACKSON , It states that on the 21st May MAJ - GEN MARSHALL led a large force to Isandlwana to bury the dead
and remove the 100 or so sevicable wagons. " Charles Tatham of the Carbineers recalled that " We found the bodies of
COLONEL PULLEINE and DURNFORD lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers ( who had fallen back on the camp and
rallied round the former ) , NMP and Volunteers who made the last stand ." I SAW THE BODIES OF BOTH THESE OFFICERS "
He says that PULLEINE was identified by his uniform. ( Tatham"s remarks are undated )
So it seems there is evidence that Pulleine"s body was found and buried.
cheers 90th.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:42 pm

From: A lost legionary in South Africa, as stated by 90th.

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So we now have confirmation that Pulleine’s body was seen on the battlefield, but how reliable is this statement.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:11 pm

Nice one 90th. This is new to me. Any other information regarding Pulleine body.
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90th

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PostSubject: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:39 pm

hi ctsg.
That is all the info I have found in regards to Pullein"s body being identified , many of the current authors
dont mention any of these sources , as for reliability Hamilton - Browne was known as a wonderful story teller.
One only has to read his books according to critics , who seem to think he may embelish the truth somewhat :)
I have no reason to doubt the other two references , Im happy to think his body was identified and buried as it
was entitled to be.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:07 pm

So we have found ourselves a witness. Who claims to have seen Pulleine’s body? I must admit I have never seen this before. But I’m wondering why none of the Zulu war authors hadn’t pickup on this. I think Mr Hamilton - Brownewas was a bit of a storyteller in his time. Was it not he who, clamed to have eaten a child to survive.

G.
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90th

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PostSubject: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:13 pm

hi MRG.
I"m not sure of the child story , It wouldnt surprise me one iota :lol!:
I am sure there is some sort of weird story that H-BROWNE claimed to be involved with,
but for the life of me , I cant remember it.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:33 pm

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Hamilton-Browne's Salute to Pulleine
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:39 pm

Excellent photo.Can we take that Pulleine's body was found then. Or is this dramatisation of the event. If it happened.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:58 pm

It appears that Browne's account regarding Pulline.s body is all there is unless any other members have something. Do you not think that Browne would have mentioned his sighting. Browne must have been alive when it was stated that Pulline.s body was never found in which case would he not have said then, that he saw his body. Even for the sake of pulline's familey. What's the point of letting Historians think and still think that his body was never found.
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90th

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PostSubject: pullein   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:29 am

hi sas1.
If you read my first posting on this subject , you will see I mentioned 2 others who were positive
they found Pullein"s body. :)
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:45 pm

So if these sighting are to be believed, why do authors today write Pulleine’s body was never found. As anyone ever read a book by a well know author today that says Pulleine’s body was found by the persons 90th as stated.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:49 pm

It has never been established where and when on the battlefield Pulleine died, as his body was never positively identified. An unknown source indicated that he died 'early' in the fighting. This would explain Coghill's later comment that Pulleine was 'already dead,' and the inability of Durnford to locate him once his force returned to the camp during the height of the battle. It would also explain Melvill's apparent dereliction of duty in abandoning his men. If Melvill knew Pulleine was dead, it would not have made sense to remain on the field with the colour.

It is also equally possible that Pulleine survived the British collapse only to be killed in one of the desperate last stands which took place after it became obvious the British were doomed. However in his book A Lost Legionary in South Africa, Commandant George Hamilton Browne describes coming across and saluting Pulleine's corpse on his way back from visiting his tent on the morning of the 23rd, as Browne was commandant of the 1st/3rd NNC. As the 1st/3rd NNC's tents were at the extreme left of the camp, it seems probable that Pulleine was killed in the camp and not in one the last stands in the saddle or 1st/24th camp.

Is it possible Pulleine was inside his tent as deplicted in the film Zulu Dawn. We know that he wrote his last letter to his wife.
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90th

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PostSubject: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:26 am

hi Mr GREAVES.
If you read my first posting on this subject you will see I listed 2 other positive sightings of Pulleine"s
body. Why these sightings havent been mentioned in any of the modern day books , Seems a little
strange , The main sighting people always seem to refer to is Hamilton - Brown"s and they take it
with a grain of salt , most likely because he was known to embelish the truth a tad .
:)
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:40 pm

This is what Maquedindaba told The Rev Lee (later Bishop Lee):
"I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening looking for the White Man's drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive so I sprang upon hm and finished him with my spear and that is why I am now called 'Maquedindaba' ('He who finishes the matter') because I killed the chief induna of the army and here is the scar of the wound he gave me."
Regards, Ken
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:50 pm

Hi ken.
Now that’s interesting, because as we know Pulleine was killed inside his tent in the film Zulu Dawn. I often wondered why his death was portrayed like that; someone must have researched the information. Maybe they got the idea from the source you mention. His body, of cause could have been dragged outside the tent and disembowelled.

G.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:53 pm

Not sure who wrote this. But it appears to be another eyewitness account of seeing Pulleine's body at Isandlwana.

"So far I have found only one, from a man in the 17th Lancers: 'I enclose you a card of four of diamonds which lay close to the colonel of the 24th (i.e., Lt Col Pulleine). They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about, lots of music, too, I picked up'"

Extract from: The Anglo-Zulu War as Depicted in Soldiers' Letters By Frank Emery
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90th

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PostSubject: LT-COL Pulleine   Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:54 am

hi dave .
I had a quick look through " The Red Soldier " by F. Emery.
I couldnt find your post . :) .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:47 am

Clements quotes no prime source material so his writings cant be verifies. Jackson on the otherhand is known for his meticulose research, I dont have his book so couldnt confirm his source.
But a point to consider, if indeed P's body had been found why wasnt the position marked?
Maori Im afraid should be classed along with The Adventures of Biggles.

Regards
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:05 am

I will try and find the source tonight and post the link.
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90th

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PostSubject: LT-COL Pulleine   Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:24 am

hi springbok9
Yes it is true W.H . CLEMENTS doesnt site any source material , unlike Jackson, but the
reason for that is Clements was at Isandlwana only months after the massacre.
The following is a part of the preface in the book.

" Within a few months after the return of the troops to P" maritzburg , I paid a visit to the field of carnage at Isandlwana , and
FROM VARIOUS AUTHENTIC SOURCES , NATIVE AS WELL AS EUROPEAN , GATHERED A FUND OF INFORMATION REGARDING ALL THAT HAPPENED ON THAT TERRIBLE DAY. Fired with a desire to learn more of this interesting campaign
I joined the NATAL MTD POLICE . In the barrack room , at the mess table, out on patrol , and around camp fires , I MET and
CONVERSED for hours on end WITH MEN WHO HAD FOUGHT THROUGHOUT THE ZULU WAR " .

I know its not the same , but he did actually meet and speak to these people in the flesh , so I dont have any
reason to discount what he states. He actually spoke to eye-witnesses , where as Jackson ploughed through
written records , Clements spoke to the those involved . It is hard to explain in writing what I mean , hopefully
this makes sense.
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: LT-COL Pulleine   Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:34 am

Hi springbok9.
Is it F.W.JACKSON you are referring to ?, I have 2 of his books on Isandlwana.
Forgot to mention , I cant understand why Pulleine"s grave isnt marked , especially as there
are 2 or 3 people who claimed to have seen his body . I have listed those people on the forum
before , but , not sure where. :)
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:26 am

Hi 90th
Yes FW Jackson. The guys research is really extensive, as you say written records.
I have no reason to doubt Clements. Save and except we have all had experience of talking to witnesses of an event and hearing the tiny embelishments.
Had it last night actually when my grand daughter was telling of an accident I had: ' Blood everywhere ! 'she said, Actually it was a band aid strip job.
So Im saying that the barrack room chat Clements heard, and probably faithfully recorded, was possibly similar.
So many writers and Historians, none of them have really come up with anything.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: LT-COL Pulleine   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:15 am

hi springbok9.
I can see where you are coming from . :)
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:17 am

Dave said
Quote :
"I will try and find the source tonight and post the link."

Dave I found it for you.

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90th

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PostSubject: LT-COL Pulleine   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:39 am

hi ctsg.
Well done , interesting article wish we knew the 17th Lancers name .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:29 pm

I have been searching for information regarding Pulleine's death. There seems to be many versions some in this topic. Came across this. And was thinking this is where they based the events of his death in the film Zulu Dawn. Would it not be practical to believe this, as no white man was there to witness his death?

Colonel Pulleine was killed in his tent. Here is a story of his death from the lips of the Zulu who slew him:

"I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening, looking for the whiteman's drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive. So I sprang upon him and finished him with my spear. That is why I am called Maqedindaba (literally he who finishes the matter) because I killed the Chief Induna of the army. And here is the scar of the wound he gave me."
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Col H Pulleine   Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:04 am

hi Mr Greaves.
Just another of the many mysteries surrounding that eventful day back in ' 79 '. It is difficult
in which story to believe , I have posted eye - witness accounts by H- Brown and a Colonial
trooper who state categorically they saw Pullein's Body and it wasnt inside a tent , If I remember
correctly it was in the camp proper . More confusion :) .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:00 pm

From Ian Knights 'ZULU' Isandlwana & Rorke's Drift 22-23 January 1879 (page 103) :

"Colonel Glyn and some of his officers searched about for bodies of their comrades, and Glyn thought that he recognised Pulleine and Hodson.
Hamilton-Brown also thought that he recognised Pulleine ; if true, these reports tend to confirm that Pulleine had died with the men making their last stands on the nek."
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:19 pm

In this situation. "Thought" Just is no good enough. They were unsure, which could suggest he was killed outside the camp body never found. Or he was mutilated beyond recognition.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:13 pm

Hi All,
am sorry to throw another spanner in the works, but in regards to Lt Col Pulleine's where abouts and ultimately
''HOW'', he died, i have heard another ''rumour'' that he was infact killed by a stray bullet, whilst trying to conduct the battle, prior to the collapse of the camp?
Have heard this senario, a couple of time's, the most recent being on wikiapedia, soory if my spelling's off. Can
not, for the life of me, think where i first heard this, but will have a go at trying to remember.
Regards to all
Dicki555
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:38 pm

Dicki555. I can only find reference to this on the following link. Hopefully someone else might know the source you speak off.

Col. Pulleine is depicted as being killed whilst writing a letter in his tent. In fact, Pulleine was killed by a stray bullet whilst directing the battle before the fall of the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:55 pm

This is the version I believe took place.

"I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening, looking for the whiteman's drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive. So I sprang upon him and finished him with my spear. That is why I am called Maqedindaba (literally he who finishes the matter) because I killed the Chief Induna of the army. And here is the scar of the wound he gave me."
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PostSubject: LT COL H.B Pulleine   Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:59 pm

hi all .
Sorry to say as it is very confusing , I have heard of both of these stories . On page 1 my original post mentions
from Hamilton - Browne himself how he came acrosst he body of H.B.Pulleine , there is also a Natal Carbineer I think
it was who also backs up the H - Browne statement . Very confusing isnt it . Suspect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:39 am

Dickie 555
Two small clues.
Hamilton Brown states that he went to examine his own quarters, saw the bodies of his groomes and horses. His quarters would have been close to his command, on the extreme Northern end of the camp, virtually under the ridge. After he had seen his campo area he proceedeed at a gallop back to the saddle, on the way he pulled up and spotted Pulleins body.
Thatham was in the area of one of the stands, he mentions the profusion of bodies, in front of the mountain, it was here that he identified the uniform of Pullein.
That could put the body in the tent area of the 2/24th, both locations fit.
Wikepedias claim for historical accuracy is non existant. There is no reliable source that tells how Pullein died.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:06 pm

A lost legionary in South Africa, as springbok9
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But he still could have been killed by a stray bullet. ??????



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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:25 pm

But it always has been claimed that his body was never found. Idea To be honest we could say he was killed by a run away horse or even tripped over and hit his head. We will never know the truth how he died. But I do like the Zulu's account as it was only the Zulu's who really know what happen in the camp area.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:48 pm

Pulleine’s Body. Found and identified by Hamilton-Brown (A lost legionary in South Africa) I find it hard to believe that this was the only sighting of Pulleine’s body. Surly his body would have been removed and given a proper burial like (Durnford) Brown says he could do nothing for him and he hurried off to his men. And this is the only Refrence made. Am I right in thinking that Brown never returned or pointed out when Pulleine’s body was? As it still stands to day that no one knows where Pulleine was during the battle, Brown could have cleared this mystery up so why didn’t he. 90th says that Brown was a bit of a storyteller, would he have made this up to preserve the name of Pulleine. Don’t make sense to me. Maybe he just need to fill the pages of his book. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:55 pm

From what I have read in Zulu Rising, I don't think Hamilton-Brown would have felt any obligation to cover up for Pulleine or any other British officer. Would Brown and Pulleine have actually known each other? Pulleine was not that well known even amongst the officers under his command - he only took command of the 1/24th at the start of the invasion, having spent most of his career away from the 24th on detachment.

"in front of the mountain, it was here that he identified the uniform of Pullein"

Was it Pulleine's uniform that was found or the body itself? Weren't the bodies stripped and disembowelled? Among a large number of dismembered bodies, one would have had to know a man quite well to positively identify him.
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt. Col . Henry Pulleine .   Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:52 am

Hi all .
I can tell you Hamilton - Browne and Pulleine were good friends they had known each other for a while , Pulleine asked Hamilton
Browne back in 77 or 78 help him form and lead Pulleine's Rangers which H.B did .

Impi.
Pulleine's body was found somewhere among the carnage of the camp , Durnford was found in his relatively well known
last stand position to the right of the camp possibly far easier to identify those wearing the Blue Patrol jackets than a heap
of corpses in Red ?. When Chelmsford's force arrived back at the camp orders were given that no one was to wander the camp .
Some of the officers did as they were no doubt wanting to check their tents as did H.Browne in the morning . As Pulleine it seems
was on the left side of the camp it was probably impossible for H.B to pass any exact info on where he saw Pulleine's body .
I dont think H.B was on any of the Burial details that went to Isandlwana much later on . Hope this helps .
cheers 90th. Idea

I'm currently reading H.B'S book at the moment but I see the part concerning Pulleine has already been posted .
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:27 am

Thanks for the replies, but I think its a bit odd that his body wasn't located or seen after Browns sighting. And has he was the left in charge at Isandlwana. you would have thought that confirmation of him remaining at the camp would have been a must.
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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:00 am

Impi
Key issue here is that on the night of the 22nd Chelmsford issued orders that no body should visit the camp area. According to CTSG's definitions they 'ran away' on the morning of the 23rd. The odd officer stayed to take a look, including Brown. When he left the field, at a gallop to catch up with the rest of the column, he paused to recognise Pullein. That was the last visit to the site untill the first serious attempt to reach the battle field by Major Black on the 15th May, they were only there for 20 minutes. The bodies were only buried at the end of June, 4 months exposure to the African sun, the dogs and hyenas. Not a lot left for identification really.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt. Col . Henry Pulleine .   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:37 am

Hi Impi.
You must remember Hamilton- Browne would have been the last white man to see Pullein's body as Chelmsford and his force
moved off before first light . H-Browne was attempting to salvage what he could from his tent and happened by chance to find Pulleine as he was heading back to his men who no doubt had been ordered to follow the column but didnt depart till H- Browne
returned to lead them away .
cheers 90th. Idea
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:10 pm


"The odd officer stayed to take a look, including Brown. When he left the field, at a gallop to catch up with the rest of the column, he paused to recognise Pullein."

Springbok, where did you find the above info?

That would be good enough for me I'd have to say, particularly after learning from 90th that Brown and Pulleine knew each other well.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:38 pm

Hi Tasker

The information comes from Brown himself

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:54 pm

Well then, that would be good enogh for me.

Pardon my ignorance 1879Graves, and thanks for those extracts, but which book are these extracts from?

Thanks,

Tasker
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:57 pm

Tasker here you go read for free
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PS Click on page to turn
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:10 pm

I personally think the whole sighting of Pulleine's body by Brown is a load of old hogwash. He claims to have seen Pulleine body in 1879 and doesn’t mention it until 1911. The truth is he was probably on the other side of Isandlwana devouring a child.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:08 pm

Hi Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Ok, If you rule out HAMILTON - BROWNE, what about the other sightings made by Captain Offy Shepstone and Charles Tatham of the Carbineers?
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:41 pm

Littlehand, thanks for the link, I will read it tonight.

CTSG, there you go again. You can't go dismissing all historical testimony becuase the witness was not an Officer of the British army.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: LT COL HENRY PULLEINE.   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:24 pm

Quote :
I will read it tonight.
Not a bad idea. Always best to research before commenting. No doubt you will compare him to a modern day officer.
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