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 Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:24 am

Just a thought - I do notice the title. No-one spelt Isandhlwana without an h until the 1990s. I don't know of a single other example.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:44 am

Gert Adendorff was barely understandable in English, I do not believe that he himself wrote this. It is of course possible he dictated to some one with more knowledge of the idiosyncracies of the English language.
'Frightful'
'Hair stand on end'
'inquire into the matter'

Lots more.

Barely a month after the battle someone so racked with guilt feels the need to bare his sole in public with just enough hints that he can identified, by the people he has to live with?

Surely when he's spent time talking to Stafford and relating his story he would have at least refered to this?

What is it about the Witness that they enjoyed publishing unsigned articles, one in April ostensible by Rev Smith, "The battle for Rorkes Drift by one who was there"...................unsigned

Revelations about Durnford? Unsigned.

Possibly they had a rather imaginative reporter.



Regards
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:02 am

If, indeed, it was published at all...I'm about to find out.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:13 am

A touch more on messengers.

The messenger from Gardner couldnt have been Evans. Gardner records him as a Basuto. Dunne merely says he was in shirt sleeves. He didnt cross at the drift because Chard didnt see him till he got back to the camp. The two IMI did cross at the drift and were sent by Bromhead to warn Helpmakaar. They couldnt have come from Sand Spruit, they came from the other side of the river.

Regards
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:21 am

As I said earlier, Bray says that he sent Evans/Whelan/and another from Sand Spruit to warn RD, after they'd arrived as fugitives from Isandhlwana. You are correct in writing that Gardner sent separately a Basuto with a message.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:48 am

Julian
Sorry Julian but not possible for Evans to ride from isandlwana to Sand Spruit ( 20 plus miles as the crow flies ) and get back to Rorkes Drift (20miles) before Dark, and still Chards evidence is that the 2 IMI crossed the Mzinyathi at the drift.

Bray himself was on the way to Helpmakaar on the Msinga road with a 28wagon convoy, he diverted to Msinga and got the news via Brickhill.

Possible he then sent a fresh messenger back to RD.

Interesting point in there is that the two IMI ( Sceculative that its Evans and Whelan) escaped isandlwana and like Adendorff avoided Fugitives Drift and came over at the Drift.

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:04 pm

springbok
Chard says that the 2 IMI crossed the river at Fugitives' Drift:
"A letter...had been sent by Bromhead by two men of the Mounted Infantry, who had arrived fugitives from Isandhlwana...These two men crossed the river at Fugitives' Drift, with some others, and as they have since reported to me, came to give notice of what had happened...of their own accord and without orders from anyone." (Chard's report)
Hitch, Waters, and Lyons record one of the MI men as being Evans.
Bray (Blue Book LIII C2252 Encl. no. 5 in no. 21, p. 73) states he questioned survivors at Umsinga and reported that 'Edwards' and two other men were ordered to ride to Rorke's Drift and give the alarm. [There was no MI man named 'Edwards'.] Bray's letters are dated "Court House, Sand Spruit, Umzinga, 8 am and 1.25 pm 23.1.79.
McToy (pp. 36-7) states that Evans and Whelan rode to RD together.
Does that help?


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:50 pm

Getting terribly confused, must be my upcoming 65th birthday,.
Brays letters are dated 23rd February?

Subtle senility setting in

Regards
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Sherman



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:23 pm

The letter, under the title "A Brave Fugitive," was indeed published in the Natal Witness on Feb 18 1879, but the version posted on this site by '1879Graves' is not the same as appeared in the Witness.
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60thRifleman



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:11 pm

Do tell !!!!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:15 pm

springbok
Sorry, slip of the finger! January not February. Corrected!

Sherman
Two things, first, are you stating as a fact that you know it was published on 18th Feb 1879?
Secondly, you can't simply just write that the version posted by 1879Graves and the version you have seen are not the same. We are all dangling on the end of a rope here....how are they different? Can you post the version you say is in the Natal Witness?

I shall be going to London in a fortnight's time and so can get my own copy then but if you can give me the page number I can order it on-line to save me the trip.
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Sherman



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:58 pm

As appeared in the Natal Witness February 18th 1879

A BRAVE FUGITIVE
The following letter has been forwarded to us, we presume, for publication. The utter poltroonery of the writer is only equalled by his inability to see it:-

Rorke’s Drift, 29th Jan., 1879

I promised to give you a better description of that frightful massacre at Isandhlwana, Zululand. I can assure you it makes my hair stand on end to relate it, but promises must be fulfilled. On the 22nd January, at about seven o’clock, a report came from Capt. Barry, who was on out-piquet, that large armies of Kafirs were advancing towards our camp. I was sent by Col. Pulliene to inquire into the matter, and see how far they were extended. My report was to Col. Pulliene that a dense mass of Kafirs was gradually advancing, and extending about five miles in beautiful open order. By the time I arrived in camp Col. Durnford had arrived with about 300 Basutos, all mounted, and shortly afterwards there men were put in action to support Capt. Barry, and to try and keep the left flank back. However, they were driven back by degrees. Shortly afterwards dense masses of Zulus made their appearance on the ridges, so the guns were at once drawn into action and fired in between the enemy, which made an opening in their column, though it closed again within ten seconds after the explosion. The rocket battery was stationed about three miles from camp, and only fired a couple of shots when it was taken, and every one cut up. The Carbineers were attacking the enemy on the right flank, but were driven back by degrees. They retired gradually towards the camp. By that time the 24th Regiment had opened fire on the Zulus at 700 yards range, pouring volley after volley into the brutes. I can assure you it was more like the roar of thunder than firing, but to no avail. They seemed not to care a bit for it, although many thousands were killed. It was one mad rush towards camp and our noble warriors, and when the savages came within about fifty yards of the gun it retreated, and soon all that were in camp ran for their brave lives. Then the massacre commenced. It is something awful to relate the sad event. The brutes did not spare one man or living object that came in their way. The poor man is hardly dead when his stomach is ripped open. They pursued to the Buffalo River, a distance of about four or five miles, stabbing every one they came across, or rather, butchering them. You can imagine that out of over 900 Europeans only twenty to twenty five to the very utmost escaped. The real statement cannot be found out because some might probably have hidden themselves in rocks and holes.
About my escaping I will give you a short account. When the Kafirs drove the 24th Regiment back I stood firing at them as fast as I could load. The last I shot before I mounted my horse was about thirty yards from them. I then mounted and gave my horse the reins. I did not go more than 300 yards when my horse was shot under me. As luck would have it some of Col. Durnford’s men came past on horseback. I caught at the bridle, and luckily I got a firm hold of the reins, it checked the horse, and sent the rider to the ground; the poor devil was too frightened to look to the horse, but ran for it. I made one jump into the saddle and started again; we had to pass over a kind of neck or hollow, and a little lower down I found my way through the brutes, how I got through that part I am not able to relate, and after passing through then all safe, my horse was shot again. Fortunately one of the same lot I got the first horse from had a led horse, which he gave me. I can assure you it did not take me long in mounting; I proceeded further on my way but did not go very far when the other one was shot through the front leg, so I made a run for it, and after running a couple of hundred yards some more men came past me and some led horses. So I levelled my gun at one and told him if he didn’t give me a horse I would blow out his brains, so I mounted again, and rode in company with about 150 of Col. Durnford’s men towards Rorke’s Drift, when my horse was knocked up and one of the same party kindly gave me another, so I arrived at this place in time to give them warning. I can assure you that it was hard work for a couple of hours to rough up some kind of wall; which was made of mealies, oats and biscuit boxes; we made some kind of wall, and made several loopholes in the two houses, when the savages came down on us, be we mowed them down. About dark they set light to one of the houses which we made into a hospital and killed several of the sick, and a few of the men that were here. In all we numbered eighty men available. Our losses amounting the next day to thirteen killed and a couple wounded; and on the enemy’s side were 475, which were buried.
I must inform you that mostly all our men, or rather that the General and all the remainder of the 24th Regiment was out some distance from camp, and nearly all our N.N. Contingent, with the exception of 89 officers and non-commissioned officers, of which 83 were killed, as well as 21 officers of the 24th Regiment, two colonels, and all the band and non-commissioned officers, with the exception of one bandsman, who escaped. The most disgusting thing is that not a single one of our noble warriors is buried; the y are all lying on the butcher’s field for the wild beasts and birds of prey, and here we are within twelve miles from the place and no trouble is made to bury the poor fellows.
I am placed in a fine state. I have no horse and only one suit of clothes, that I have on; so if it gets too dirty I must undress and wash it, and remain there until it is dry before I can go back to camp. If they do not let us go from here soon I shall have to go with a gunny bag as my dress; I believe that they intend to keep us here. I really do not know how I shall stand it, for I have nothing to cook in; if I want to make a cup of tea or coffee I have to run about to try and borrow something to cook it in. I can assure you that I am in a dilapidated state now, and as soon as the war is over I will never volunteer again.
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:01 am

Hi All .
Paul Thompson also mentions the existance of the letter in ' Black Soldiers Of The Queen ' from the book ..... '' Most of the sotho troop under Hlubi had broken through the zulu encirclement and ridden toward R.D. Some of the Edendale men , possibly some of the amaNgwane , and a few other fugitives from the camp went with them . There were brushes with the enemy as they cleared the vicinity of the camp , but the men on horse-back soon out - distanced pursuers . ( 25 ) . After a while an officer of the 3rd Regt who escaped with them rode ahead with one of the mounted Colonials and told the British officer at R.D of the disaster ( 26 ) This is verbatim from the book . The page number is 64 ..... Footnote ( 26 ) NW , Feb 18 , 1879 , ' Brave Fugitive ' this is on page 71 . So no doubt the Letter '' DOES EXIST '' and to me no doubt it is Adendorff !.
Cheers 90th .

Also I will say that I asked Graves1879 to post the article because my computer skills are only basic at best . It was kindly sent from a friend . Also I need to stipulate that the post was indeed a typed copy which was taken from a hand written copy of the letter as published and that also some of the writing was illegible , hence the question marks in the type script !.
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Lietenant Adendorff   Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:57 am

Hi Sherman.
There are a couple of lines missing here and there and the occasional word but its virtually the same . The main objective here
is to prove the letter existed and that it is indeed written by Adendorff . I think both these points are now answered in the affirmative . As stated earlier by me , the copy posted by graves1879 was a typed copy , taken from a further hand written copy of the letter ( some words illegible ) that was originally published ( Phew ! ) . I would say the person who copied it originally had attempted to condense it for one reason or another . Hope we can now put this to bed . :sleep: :sleep: :lol: :lol:
cheers 90th. You need to study mo .
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:51 am

90th

Sorry mate, far from putting it to bed Im afraid.

What we have is a letter sent to a newspaper, unsigned.

And thats it really.

1)I havent yet had a valid reason for the letter being written, why would Adendorf want to commit social suicide?
2)No proof thats its Adendorff.
3)Written in English, using idiosyncratic terminology.
4)All from a news paper known for publishing unsupported reports.



Sorry but dont buy it
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PostSubject: Lietenant Adendorff   Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:05 am

Hi Springbok.
That my friend is your right , I believe it , no doubt .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:14 am

<<<<< Cantankerous old bugger. Comes from living in Cape Town.

:lol:
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:11 am

Bravo Julian continu !
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:31 am

Sherman
Really, thank you very much. The cat is well and truly among the pigeons. First, I should say that with two versions, the first thing I would want to do is get the original newspaper and be absolutely sure of the exact wording. No disrespect to anyone here, it's just there must be no room for equivocation. Secondly, as springbok says, it is an anonymous letter and no-one should make snap decisions. Personally, I'd want to look very carefully at it before deciding whether it is attributable exclusively to Adendorff.
Furthermore, if others knew of this of this letter, I don't understand why more hasn't been made of it.
So, no comment from me for the moment - judgement reserved.
Sherman, on the off chance, may I ask you whether you have a photocopy of the paper - if so, which page does the letter appear on?
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:37 am

Hi Julian .
Did you see my post in which I said Paul Thompson also mentions the letter in Black Soldiers Of the Queen ? . If not , the page number and footnote number is also in my post .
cheers 90th.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:40 am

90th
Yes, I did, thank you. I've already checked it!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:59 am

Sherman
One further question - may I ask you how you knew about this letter and how you obtained the text? Is it in print somewhere?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:33 pm

Here's my take on this anonymous letter. I haven't yet made up my mind finally but these are my initial thoughts. All comments gratefully received. My notes are in capitals:



I promised to give you a better description of that frightful massacre at Isandhlwana, Zululand. I can assure you it makes my hair stand on end to relate it, but promises must be fulfilled. On the 22nd January, at about seven o’clock, a report came from Capt. Barry, who was on out-piquet, that large armies of Kafirs were advancing towards our camp. I was sent by Col. Pulliene to inquire into the matter, and see how far they were extended.

THE WRITER WAS SENT OUT TO BARRY’S COY AFTER 7 AM. SCOTT’S CARBINEERS WERE USED TO CARRY MESSAGES.

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT ADENDORFF WAS SENT OUT TO BARRY’S COY BUT THE TIME IS NOT PRECISE. WHEN ADENDORFF RETURNED AND SUPPLIED HIS UNSATISFACTORY REPORT, HIGGINSON WAS SENT UP THE RIDGE. WHEN HIGGINSON CAME DOWN, DURNFORD ARRIVED SHORTLY AFTERWARDS AT 10.30 (A FIXED TIME AT LAST). WOULD THIS FILL 3½ HOURS? I DON’T THINK SO.

My report was to Col. Pulliene that a dense mass of Kafirs was gradually advancing, and extending about five miles in beautiful open order. By the time I arrived in camp Col. Durnford had arrived with about 300 Basutos, all mounted, and shortly afterwards there men were put in action to support Capt. Barry, and to try and keep the left flank back.

THE WRITER ARRIVES BACK IN CAMP AFTER 10.30 TO REPORT TO PULLEINE AND AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF DURNFORD. THIS CAN’T BE ADENDORFF, HE HAS ALREADY BEEN BACK FOR SOME TIME.

However, they were driven back by degrees. Shortly afterwards dense masses of Zulus made their appearance on the ridges, so the guns were at once drawn into action and fired in between the enemy, which made an opening in their column, though it closed again within ten seconds after the explosion. The rocket battery was stationed about three miles from camp, and only fired a couple of shots when it was taken, and every one cut up.

THE WRITER SEES EVERYTHING – ON THE RIDGE, ON THE PLAIN, BEYOND CONICAL KOPPIE, OFF TO THE RIGHT – THIS MAN IS NOT IN A FIXED POSITION WITH A BODY OF MEN.

The Carbineers were attacking the enemy on the right flank, but were driven back by degrees. They retired gradually towards the camp.

THE WRITER HAS AN INTEREST IN CARBINEERS. MEN THAT HE KNEW? PROBABLY A COLONIAL HIMSELF.

By that time the 24th Regiment had opened fire on the Zulus at 700 yards range, pouring volley after volley into the brutes. I can assure you it was more like the roar of thunder than firing, but to no avail. They seemed not to care a bit for it, although many thousands were killed. It was one mad rush towards camp and our noble warriors, and when the savages came within about fifty yards of the gun it retreated, and soon all that were in camp ran for their brave lives.

THE WRITER WAS CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE GUNS TO SEE THIS.

Then the massacre commenced. It is something awful to relate the sad event. The brutes did not spare one man or living object that came in their way. The poor man is hardly dead when his stomach is ripped open. They pursued to the Buffalo River, a distance of about four or five miles, stabbing every one they came across, or rather, butchering them. You can imagine that out of over 900 Europeans only twenty to twenty five to the very utmost escaped. The real statement cannot be found out because some might probably have hidden themselves in rocks and holes.
About my escaping I will give you a short account. When the Kafirs drove the 24th Regiment back I stood firing at them as fast as I could load. The last I shot before I mounted my horse was about thirty yards from them. I then mounted and gave my horse the reins.

NOWHERE DOES THE WRITER INDICATE HIS DUTIES OR MEN FOR WHOM HE WAS RESPONSIBLE. HE HAD HIS OWN HORSE, SO HE WAS AN OFFICER OR COLONIAL OR IN A MOUNTED UNIT.

I did not go more than 300 yards when my horse was shot under me. As luck would have it some of Col. Durnford’s men came past on horseback.

THIS IMPLIES THAT HE (THE WRITER) WAS NOT ONE OF DURNFORD’S MEN – THIS PRECLUDES HENDERSON

I caught at the bridle, and luckily I got a firm hold of the reins, it checked the horse, and sent the rider to the ground; the poor devil was too frightened to look to the horse, but ran for it. I made one jump into the saddle and started again; we had to pass over a kind of neck or hollow, and a little lower down I found my way through the brutes, how I got through that part I am not able to relate, and after passing through then all safe, my horse was shot again. Fortunately one of the same lot I got the first horse from had a led horse, which he gave me. I can assure you it did not take me long in mounting; I proceeded further on my way but did not go very far when the other one was shot through the front leg, so I made a run for it, and after running a couple of hundred yards some more men came past me and some led horses. So I levelled my gun at one and told him if he didn’t give me a horse I would blow out his brains, so I mounted again, and rode in company with about 150 of Col. Durnford’s men towards Rorke’s Drift,

THOSE KNOWN TO HAVE ACCOMPANIED THE BASUTOS/EDENDALE MEN INCLUDE HENDERSON AND HALL – THOUGH THERE MAY HAVE BEEN OTHERS.

when my horse was knocked up and one of the same party kindly gave me another, so I arrived at this place in time to give them warning.

THE WRITER WARNS RORKE'S DRIFT AND STAYS (POSSIBLY FOR JUST A WHILE)

I can assure you that it was hard work for a couple of hours to rough up some kind of wall; which was made of mealies, oats and biscuit boxes; we made some kind of wall, and made several loopholes in the two houses, when the savages came down on us, be we mowed them down.


THE WRITER IMPLIES PARTICIPATION – BUT HE WAS NOT NECESSARILY THERE

About dark they set light to one of the houses which we made into a hospital and killed several of the sick, and a few of the men that were here. In all we numbered eighty men available. Our losses amounting the next day to thirteen killed and a couple wounded; and on the enemy’s side were 475, which were buried.

HALL PARTICIPATED IN FORTIFYING THE 'HOSPITAL'. THE WRITER EMPHASISES THE FORTIFYING PRIOR TO THE ATTACK WITH VIRTUALLY NOTHING ON THE HARROWING ATTACK ITSELF. HALL LATER INFORMED THE TIMES OF NATAL CORRESPONDENT THAT THERE WERE THIRTEEN KILLED. SOMEONE THERE THE NEXT MORNING WOULD KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER KILLED (WHY PRETEND TO KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER OF 13?)

I must inform you that mostly all our men, or rather that the General and all the remainder of the 24th Regiment was out some distance from camp, and nearly all our N.N. Contingent, with the exception of 89 officers and non-commissioned officers, of which 83 were killed, as well as 21 officers of the 24th Regiment, two colonels, and all the band and non-commissioned officers, with the exception of one bandsman, who escaped.

THE WRITER HAS KNOWLEDGE OF THE NNC BUT ALSO, EQUALLY, KNOWLEDGE OF THE 24TH, POSSIBLY ACQUIRED LATER. THERE IS NO MENTION OF HIS OWN UNIT IF THE WRITER IS A MEMBER OF THE NNC HIMSELF.

The most disgusting thing is that not a single one of our noble warriors is buried; they are all lying on the butcher’s field for the wild beasts and birds of prey, and here we are within twelve miles from the place and no trouble is made to bury the poor fellows.

AT THE TIME OF WRITING THE WRITER’S 12 MILES AWAY: HELPMEKAAR

I am placed in a fine state. I have no horse and only one suit of clothes, that I have on; so if it gets too dirty I must undress and wash it, and remain there until it is dry before I can go back to camp. If they do not let us go from here soon I shall have to go with a gunny bag as my dress; I believe that they intend to keep us here. I really do not know how I shall stand it, for I have nothing to cook in; if I want to make a cup of tea or coffee I have to run about to try and borrow something to cook it in. I can assure you that I am in a dilapidated state now, and as soon as the war is over I will never volunteer again.

THE WRITER IMPLIES HE VOLUNTEERED.

SUMMARY:
OBVIOUS PARTICIPANT AT ISANDHLWANA; USED AS MESSENGER/SCOUT. GOES ON TO RIDGE AFTER 7 AM. REAPPEARS AFTER DURNFORD ARRIVED (10.30) BY WHICH TIME BOTH ADENDORFF & HIGGINSON HAVE BEEN UP AND DOWN THE RIDGE. NO RESPONSIBILITY IN THE CAMP.
POSSIBLE PARTICIPANT AT RORKE’S DRIFT (HIS INFORMATION MAY BE PART FIRST-HAND AND PART SECOND-HAND). CLAIMED INVOLVEMENT IN FORTIFYING THE BUILDINGS WHICH HALL ALSO CLAIMS ELSEWHERE IN TIMES OF NATAL. STANDARD OF ENGLISH NOT CONSISTENT WITH PERSON FOR WHOM ENGLISH WAS A SECOND LANGUAGE.

POSSIBLE IDENTITY:
CONDUCTOR HALL – MOST LIKELY GIVEN KNOWN MOVEMENTS
TPR SIBTHORPE – POSSIBLE IN THAT HIS MOVEMENTS ARE UNKNOWN
LIEUT ADENDORFF – LEAST LIKELY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF TIMINGS
HENDERSON - IMPOSSIBLE


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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:24 pm

Obviously this was translated by somebody if it really was Adendorff's account, however the use of terms like "our noble warriors" do not seem to come from the mouth of a colonial volunteer who speaks little English and probably has little affinity for Britain. If someone is putting words in his mouth, how much other material is doctored.

Mind you, if it hadn't been attributed to Adendorff, who is the centre of much claim and counter claim, would we all be dissecting it to such a degree?

Also, I see Adendorff supposedly took a "led" horse at gunpoint, which considering he was fleeing for his life, seems reasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:19 pm

Don't shoot me down. But there are quite a few comparisons to Smith-Dorrients account in " forty eight years services"

Heres one . I have posted the link below. Have a read let me know what you think.

"I will return to the advancing Zulus' line at about 1 p.m. It was a marvellous sight, line upon line of men in slightly extended order."
Smith.

"My report was to Col. Pulliene that a dense mass of Kafirs was gradually advancing, and extending about five miles in beautiful open order."
The unknow letter.



"I can assure you that it was hard work for a couple of hours to rough up some kind of wall; which was made of mealies, oats and biscuit boxes"
The Unknown letter.

"The next day I rode down to Rorke's Drift, some twelve miles, to resume charge of my depot. There was the improvised little fort, built up mostly of mealy-sacks and biscuit-boxes and other stores"
Smith.


48 Years Service. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:33 pm

Hi All .
I'm of the view that Gert Adendorff stayed at R.D , he's on Chard's Roll , Stafford I think it was , states he saw Adendorff on the morning of the 23rd when he arrived at R.D and Harford says the same if i'm not mistaken , that will do me gentlemen !. Who knows about the times , no-one does . I'm in the Adendorff corner and happy to stay there .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:43 pm

I'm not disputing he wasn't there. But I certainly think Smith had something to do with the letter. He wasn't with no particular regiment at Isandlwana., and he certainly moved about a bit at Isandlwana. He saw Dunford and the 24th falling back.
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:57 pm

Hi Littlehand .
Are you saying Smith - Dorrien wrote it about himself ???? or Adendorff ????. It has nothing to do with the way Smith Dorrien got away he crossed the river at the drift , Adendorff didnt and as he adendorff says he got away with Hlubi's men , I'm confused with your referance to ' Smith ' Question Question
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:07 pm

Hi Julian .
In your summing up I see you are leaning towards Conductor Hall , why would Pulleine send a Conductor to the out - lying piquets scratch scratch . I know Pulleine did some strange things but that seems a little rich to me . Question
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:23 pm

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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:10 am

Hi Littlehand .
I think we've discussed this chap before and does he have any relevence to be on the Adendorff thread ? .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:26 am

Hi all

The evil to be able to say or write on Adendorff, has been written or said because it was not British and that British chauvinists, was jealous of him because he is the only one ever to Isandhwana and RD.

See how they let miserer Swiss Corporal of R D ...

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:42 am

Littlehand
You came close, with the comparisons to SD, time is the problem mate, SD wrote his 48 Years literally 48 years later, the statement for the CoI was .written on or around the end of January.

Pascal
Rubbish implication of latent discrimination.

90th

Hall is a possibility, relating stories he had heard.

I trully believe in Adendorf,
I believe he was at both isandlwana and RD.
I dont believe he was a coward that ran away from one battle and volunteered to stay and fight at another.
I am not yet convinced that this is his letter. possibly written about him by a third person.

In that group that escaped from the road was Henderson Hall and a couple of others. Why on earth hasnt one of them ever alluded to this story?

Why didint Hlubi?

And the question I would love answered................ Why on earth would Adendorf write this to the Witness while he was still at RD??????????

Regards



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:19 am

So that's what I said,Springbok9 , the foreign in the british colonial troops of the Zulu War, were victims of xenophobia ...

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:44 am

90th
I don't think anyone who has seriously studied the conflict has any doubt that Adendorff stayed and fought at RD. I don't quite see why you raised this?
As to your query about why would Pulleine send Hall, we have only the anonymous writer's word that it was actually Pulleine personally who sent him. It could well be the case that Pulleine asked Krohn or Higginson or ANOther to send someone up to the ridge to do X and that a subordinate (the anon. writer) was sent 'on Pulleine's order'.
Little hand
Greaves was a New Zealand impostor - I think we've been over this before. The anon. writer is not Smith-Dorrien writing about his own experiences and I doubt whether Smith-Dorrien would have written another's account for him (he certainly couldn't translate from German) for a newspaper. The comparisons are interesting though.
Springbok
Given the date of the paper's publication, I think the writer was writing from Helpmekaar. If it's an NNC officer they were all moved after disbandment to Helpmekaar. There is that word 'here' which creeps in though. Food for thought!
All
I realise how convenient it would be if this were written by Adendorff but I ask you again to look at the timings of the trip to the ridge and reporting back. I don't see how the anon. writer can have been Adendorff. There must have been people going up to the ridge at Pulleine's behest constantly that morning to report on the latest in a changing situation, not just Adendorff and Higginson (the ones who were alive to talk about it afterwards). Most of them we know nothing about - perhaps the anon. writer was one of them.
Why would Adendorff later tell Stafford he escaped by following the river to RD? He had nothing to hide. Stafford knew Henderson well - if Adendorff had escaped with Henderson/Hlubi's men, Stafford would probably have known if Adendorff had been with them. So, why lie to Stafford? It doesn't make sense. The sense is he was telling the truth, couldn't swim, and followed the river bank.
This anon. writer may have been Hall, it could have been one of the two anon. NNC NCOs who escaped, it could be Vaines or Sibthorpe whose movements are equally unknown. I just don't think there's anything there to say it was definitely Adendorff.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:45 am

I was merely pointing out the similarities in the the two accounts. The other chap was posted as a possibility as being one of the survivors of the NNC who may have written the letter inquestion. Just another avenue to go down. The fact is, you can't prove that the letter was written by "Adendroff" and springbok as dismissed it because it comes from a news paper. Julian quite righty is breaking the letter down in a forensic manner eliminating any miss-conception of who it may or may not be. Salute
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:26 am

Hi Julian .
Think I'm happy to go with the anonymous writer ( Adendorff , in my view , and among others Knight & Thompson ) who said Pulleine sent him ' surely this is the case as the writer says so !. So you basically think the writer is wrong ? . Well he was there
and did state what happened , which is basically an eyewitness statement isnt it not ? . If you are willing to dismiss what the writer has stated where does it end ? . The same could apply for all manor of instances in which no-one is to be believed even though they have stated what happened .
cheers 90th. Rolling Eyes


PS. I raised the point about Adendorrf being at both battles as many on here dont think he was . That was the consensus a while ago when Adendorff was first discussed . Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:30 pm

Eh bien mon pauvre Julian , tu n'est pas sortis de l'auberge si certains commence à croire que Adendorff n'était pas à Rorke's Drift...Bon courage...

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:08 pm

Julian
The report is sub headed Rorkes Drift 29th January. I to thought the NNC remnanents were moved to Helpmakaar, however the date and place are quoted.
Just a tad of research, the NNC were broken up around 23/24 jan. Lonsdal then left for Helpmakaar and left the white officers and NCO's behind. In supposrt of that, there is the story of Hamilton Browns Gin being 'borrowed' by Harford. Possibly a significant point to the date is the 29th was the day that fresh troops arrived, Engineer I think.
And of course the wounded were only sent up on the 26th.

Where was Hall at that time, any idea?

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:54 pm

Springbok
You are quite right. In my haste to copy and paste I cut off the sub-heading. Thank you, well-noticed. Hall would in all probability still have been at Helpmekaar, I think. The Natal Witness of 30th January records that R J Hall, reported to be missing, "has turned up" but doesn't say where.
90th
I have learnt that Knight might not have checked the reference before mentioning the anecdote recorded in this letter in his books (2003 and 2007). I don't know about Thompson (2006) although he only goes as far as saying that the writer might be a 3rd Regt NNC officer without saying who. Before I do anything else with this, I have to receive confirmation that this letter is genuine; I'm waiting to hear on that now. Sherman has failed to reply as to how he obtained the text that we've been discussing. Littlehand has noticed some similarities with Smith-D's account. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that we're all being made fools of. To state now, categorically, that you accept that this was written by Adendorff is crazy; I repeat, we don't even know if it's genuine.
As a by the by, I NEVER accept that something is so just because it appears in a book (albeit by Knight or Thompson). Look at 'Captain Carey's Blunder'. Look at TWOTS. Look at some of the recent books that have included some outrageous remarks.
You are missing the point with regard to your being:
"happy to go with the anonymous writer who said Pulleine sent him - surely this is the case as the writer says so!"
The writer does not say so directly - it could have been indirectly at Pulleine's behest.
"So you basically think the writer is wrong ?"
No. I don't think that. It's just that he might be using a figure of speech to say, broadly-speaking, that he was sent by Pulleine, meaning he was sent on Pulleine's orders. One has to interpolate when dealing with primary sources and not take statements at face value. There is also the question of timing. The anon. writer states that he came down the ridge and Durnford had already arrived. We know however that Adendorff had been up and down the ridge, followed by Higginson up and down the ridge, all BEFORE Durnford arrived. I don't see, even if the doc is genuine how this can be ascribed to Adendorff. The known facts do not fit.
"Well he was there and did state what happened, which is basically an eyewitness statement isnt it not ? . If you are willing to dismiss what the writer has stated where does it end ? The same could apply for all manor [sic] of instances in which no-one is to be believed even though they have stated what happened."
It is an anonymous account. We don't even know if it is genuine yet. No-one should be believed until it can be proven beyond doubt that the document is authentic, that the writer was there, and his identity can be established. Look at the Young account written immediately after Isandhlwana and published in the newspaper - a complete fabrication, and Young was daft enough to put his name to that! Weirdos aren't just a phenomenon of the 21st century.
I really think this is going nowhere until the letter's authenticity is established.



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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:03 am

Hi Julian
I can tell you on reliable authority that Ian Knight DID indeed check the referance and more so believes the letter should be attributed to Adendorff , and as I've intimated I agree . You seem to be clutching at straws in an attempt to refute the letter being
attributed to Adendorff in any way shape or form .
You say '' The writer does not say so directly '' ; What part of '' I was sent by Pulleine '' is not direct enough for you ?
You also say '' I dont know about Thompson ( 2006 ) although he only goes as far as saying that the writer MIGHT be a 3rd NNC
Officer without saying who . '' This from Thompson ( 2006 ) verbatim Page 64 ; '' After a while an OFFICER of the 3rd Regt
who escaped with them rode ahead with one of the mounted colonials and told the british officer at Rorke's Drift of the disaster ( 26 ) This is the footnote which mentions the NW Article Feb 18 , 1879 . We know Adendorff and another mtd Colonial spoke to Chard at the drift because Chard mentions Adendorff DIRECTLY by name !. Doesnt he ? . So I dont see how it can be anyone else , if you do , please enlighten me as to why Chard said Adendorff gave him the news !. Chard hadnt and didnt speak to Hall ,
Sibthorpe and others you have thrown in the mix before he spoke to Adendorff - because if he did and was told of the massacre by another person he would have said so , agreed ? . I dont think that I'm crazy sticking to my guns , if you show me irrefutable evidence I'll change my mind , until then , to me the puzzle fits . Forgot to mention that there is no ' might be a 3rd NNC Officer in Thompson . He clearly states '' An Officer of the 3rd Regt '' . I also dont accept everything I read either but if the evidence is there in front of me I'll go with it to a certain degree until it is proven incorrect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:17 am

90th

Checking it was published and does exist is not clutching at straws. At the moment one can't even point to a definitive text for the letter since there have been two versions of it posted on the forum - Greaves's and Sherman's - I don't know which is correct yet, if either.

As I said, we have to interpolate statements. If for example, the anonymous writer were a corporal, he would not have been ordered by Pulleine directly - the order would have come via his officer - but the corporal could still write that he had been ordered by Pulleine. Without knowing the officer's identity or rank, one has to interpolate.

As I said, I don't know whether Thompson checked the reference himself and he does NOT say the writer was Adendorff. He merely conjectures, without committing himself to a name, that it was an OFFICER of the 3rd Regt.

Of course, Chard spoke to Adendorff, and of course Adendorff was the first survivor he spoke to - I'm not suggesting he didn't and wasn't. But speaking to Adendorff and speaking to the writer of this anonymous letter may be two separate events. Chard spoke to several unnamed survivors as they passed through; he may well have spoken to Hall among them especially since he did speak to Henderson.

I didn't say you were 'crazy sticking to my guns', I said, that 'to state now, categorically, that you accept that this was written by Adendorff is crazy; I repeat, we don't even know if it's genuine.' The idea of accepting, not you personally, is crazy (perhaps 'illogical' would have been a better word). Apologies if you misinterpreted.

As for evidence, I have shown that the timing doesn't fit. Show me how it does.


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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:29 am

Purely on an academic level, Julian is right. An anonymous letter that may or may not have been published is not evidence that can be used to make a case. Any author who then uses it or quotes from it, should then make it known that IN HIS OPINION it is genuine, or IN HIS OPINION it was written by so an so.

In any other academic field, no-one would use data that had not been verified or peer reviewed, and if the study of this campaign is to be moved forward, we should be doing the same.

I find many posts on these forums blindly take an author's interpretations as fact without verifying sources and forming their own conclusions.

Authors generally write books to make money. Publishers always publish books to make money. Authors need therefore, to constantly come up with "new angles" to present the same information, or re-interpret something in a new and exciting/sesationalist way to sell copies. This often results in picking and choosing evidence that suits their "pet" theory, and ignoring evidence to the contrary.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:43 am

Hi Julian

Please look yours messages...

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:05 pm

Hi
Totally agree with Julian and 60th.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:34 pm

Another question is how did he obtain so much paper to write the letter, surly he would have lost everything at Isandlwana, and his English is perfect.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:24 am

DB14
Suprisingly there where a number of letters written from RD and Helpmakaar. One of the letters actually complains about the cost of a piece of paper. See if you can get a copy of Frank Emery, The Red Soldier, a lot of them are in there.

Couldnt agree more on the English used.

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:02 am

Of course the reporter of the supposed Newspaper that reported the story could have wrote it down as the person told it.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:41 am

OH

Valid comment but I dont think there were any reporters there at the time, With the exception of Noggs Newman. And as he wrote a book on the subject one would be inclined to think he would have made mention. Newman did leave RD on the 23rd for Pietermaritzburg to send of his despatches.

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:06 am

All
For information, Sherman has replied to me in a pm that he obtained the cutting from the original newspaper via a source in SA some time ago. He also has several letters written by Adendorff (all of them in Dutch [I'm querying this] bar one, which was written in English for him but signed by Adendorff - significant!). Before doing any more on this I want to obtain the cutting myself, establish the source, and verify the exact wording. I have had an acknowledgement from the Natal Witness that they are searching for this letter and will let me know if they find it in that edition of the paper. I do think that this anon. letter is important (because it adds to the sum of our knowledge) but I can't in my mind connect it yet to Adendorff based on the content. The only connection is the visit up the ridge to Barry's coy which is at the wrong time.
Old historian
The anon. letter is not in the third person. No reporter has transcribed this. All other letters in contemporary papers are first-person accounts or reportage in the third person with commentary.
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