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 Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:41 pm

Littlehand
You are confusing the issue by bringing Higginson into the frame. Higginson did not cross at RD and was not in the Henderson party.
90th
The translation issue is I feel another dead letter. first he'd have to find someone to translate well from Dutch to English. Secondly, he'd have to beg paper - and it's a long letter - and then persuade someone that it was worth the paper and worth the translating despite the fact it was intended for a newspaper! This at a time when doubtless they would be wanting to write home to their mums and sweethearts. It just doesn't make sense. I think the Witness would have mentioned if it had been translated. Adendorff had family to write to. If he'd written anything at all, it would have been in Dutch/German and sent to them. It would make more sense if the Adendorff family had passed it to someone for translation for the paper. Yet, from the contents, it hardly feels like a 'Dear Mother' letter.
I think you're on a hiding to nothing pursuing this line.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:48 pm

So how do we know Adendrorff crossed at Rorkes Drift? Adendorff himself seems to have left no account of his movements. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:17 pm

Because Chard watched him......


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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:48 pm

Here's a question how did he cross the river to RD
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:11 pm

littlehand wrote:
So how do we know Adendrorff crossed at Rorkes Drift? Adendorff himself seems to have left no account of his movements. scratch

Hi Littlehand,
I have recently just read Eyewitness in Zululand the Reminiscences of Colonel W.A.Dunne. It is mentioned in there I think it's page 124/125, when Chard first received the news of Isandlwana, I was having a look earlier today as I was viewing this thread. It also states that Dunne was with Bromhead when another rider approached them roughly the same time and told them the news of Isandlwana. I think it may be mentioned in Padre George Smith also just recently read. In Dunnes it also mentions Lt Vane being with Adendorff. They proceeded to the camp whilst Chard secured the ponts.
I know there were also other riders mentioned that made it to Rorke's Drift, some did not even stop but were sighted on their escape towards Helpmakaar.
cheers
Richie
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:20 pm

Hi Littlehand.
Please read all the posts , you are asking questions that have been answered by witnesses . Chard saw Adendorff at the ponts
and was given the news from Adendorff himself . As I said you need to read the posts , properly . As Julian stated , you are confusing the issue .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:29 pm

As I have said before. I don't doubt that he was and stayed at RD. I just asked what was his movements when he vacated Isandlwana. How did he get RD when the road was blocked with Zulus.
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:17 am

Hi Littlehand .
Hlubi and his men went the same way as Adendorff , they fought their way through the zulu and managed to make it to the drift . After crossing the river further downstream , Hlubi and his men halted for 15 mins to give their horses a spell , it is in this time that Adendorff and his Carbineer companion rode down to the ponts and saw Chard , they then briefed Chard and all went back to the camp to consult Bromhead etc etc . I'm fairly certain Hlubi's statements may already have been posted . If not I'm sure you will be able to find them . Salute
Cheers 90th .
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:31 am

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand .
Hlubi and his men went the same way as Adendorff , they fought their way through the zulu and managed to make it to the drift .

90th
Isnt this at variance with the Stafford/Adendorff story of him hugging the river because he couldnt swim?

Just a thought to stir the pot. :lol:

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:36 am

DB 14
Coghill rode into the river to rescue Melvill, surely the river was flowing pretty strongly, if so wouldnt you agree that its entirely possible that Mellvill would have been static ( clinging to a rock ) rather than being swept away?

Just a thought.

regards
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:19 am

90th
Re your 6.17 posting, you know you really shouldn't be making postings like this:
"Hlubi and his men went the same way as Adendorff , they fought their way through the zulu and managed to make it to the drift . After crossing the river further downstream , Hlubi and his men halted for 15 mins to give their horses a spell , it is in this time that Adendorff and his Carbineer companion rode down to the ponts and saw Chard , they then briefed Chard and all went back to the camp to consult Bromhead etc etc"
which give the impression that it is a definite fact that Adendorff and Hlubi's men were together. You know it is just speculation and far from anything like proven and it simply confuses the issue for new contributors.
I'm not being rude to you but it simply distorts what must already be a very confusing discussion for many readers.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:30 am

Hi Julian .
Point taken , it isnt 100 % proven fact .

Littlehand .
Higginson went on to Join Bettington's Horse .
cheers 90th. Salute


Last edited by 90th on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:07 am

Also - and this point is quite crucial - there is some circumstantial evidence that the party of the Natal Native Horse which arrived at the post just before the battle began - that is, after Adendorff but before the Zulus - may have crossed the river, not at Fugitives' Drift, but at Rorke's Drift. That being so, they had clearly been able to find a way through the right horn and reserve, despite having - in all probability - left the camp after Adendorff. No doubt the fact that they retained some cohesion, and enough ammunition to ward off too much Zulu attention, had something to do with this.
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:15 am

Hi Ctsg.
I assume you are referring to Hlubi and his men ?..
cheers 90th. Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:52 am

Richie
Thanks for your contribution re Vane (actually 'Vaines') and Adendorff.
Unfortunately these are NOT Dunne’s words. They are the those of the author (Ian Bennett) and he has lifted them out of Morris’s TWOTS.
Dunne simply says the mounted orderly was a 'man in his shirtsleeves'.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Hi Julian,
Thanks for the correction I do not want to confuse this utterly intruiging thread anymore. When I first looked at this post it was supposed to confirm if Adendorff fought at both battles and has branched off in all directions! In my humble opinion from the evidence I have seen and what I have read I am conviced he did.
The route he took and the anonymous letter is another matter. Lets hope more eyewitness accounts turn up. It seems from some of the conjecture that the probable routes taken can within reason be determined for the escapees.
If that letter is genuine and from what you are saying it seems to be, then that seems to throw up other issues concerned with the collapse at Isandlwana.

Anyway back to the sidelines for me: scratch You need to study mo scratch
Good luck to all trying to trace this evidence and keep up the great work - totally captivating for a newbie like me. I do like a good argument, debate.
cheers
Richie
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:53 pm

Richie
There is no doubt, and since the mid-70s never really has been any doubt, that Adendorff fought at both battles.
The letter, a separate matter, was published in the Natal Witness as an anonymous survivor's letter. There is now no doubt of that. What is not known is whether it is a fake account or genuine and who the anonymous author was.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:53 pm

Ritchie
Never in doubt really, Adendorff had to have been at both battles. ( Ask Stanley Baker)

What is in question is the Newspaper article. There are doubts, enough to call into question certain aspects. 90th is of the opinion those doubts are minor enough to be rejected. His opinion and hes a learned guy so good luck to him. Julian is of the view that while there are doubts, no matter how significant, authorship can not be certain. Again a learned opinion and it has to be respected.
I have expressed doubts from two different angles, they are enough for me to have doubts.

So as the bard once said " pays yer money and take yer chance." :lol:

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:05 pm

Can someone post Trooper Symons account of seeing him on
the 23rd ??



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:27 pm

This chap never left an account, it was forged by another officer.

Trooper Symons was on the day in-question in Greytown. He had been sent to precure an assignment of tartan paint, needed by the 90th reg of foot, for their officers mess, as laid down in Chelmsfords standing orders. One of the conditions the 90th reg agreed to take part in the Zulu War. Salute
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi Littlehand .
Sorry to say , you are very much incorrect in saying Symons never left an account , he most certainly did .
I have it ! , this from page 33 ; '' When the hospital was fired by the zulu's , the men at once set to work to pull off the thatch from the dwelling house . A GERMAN OR SOME FOREIGNER ( Adendorff ! ) who was with the garrison saved that building from fire for he saw a zulu with a lighted bunch of grass just raising it up to the eaves and promptly shot him '' .In other accounts Attwood has also said he did the same thing . The papers are entitled '' My Reminiscenses of the zulu war by J.P. ( Fred ) Symons .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:57 am

:lol:
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:55 am

Littlehand
tried that Tartan paint once, absolute sod to get it dry. :lol:
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:37 am

And yesterday of course was " April the 1st"
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:40 am

Well I never?

LittleGland strikes again
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:06 pm

Hi All.
See what happens when you are running late for work !. :lol: :lol: . And try to read forum stuff at the same time . Shocked .
Got me good . I re - read the post and saw a lot of words I didnt see the first time ! . I basically replied to the first sentence .
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Suspect Suspect Suspect . To good for me Littlehand .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:56 pm

I find that if you don't paint the horizontal lines first, before painting the vertical ones, that tartan paint stuff just tends to blend together in patches and looks awfully blotchy.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:11 pm

Are you all trying to say that Adendorff was NOT wearing a kilt?
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:29 pm

Very good LH. :joker:
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt.Adendorff 1/ 3rd NNC.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:21 am

HI DB.
I think you'll find if you read the Harford Journal he intimates that the NNC handed in their weapons and were disbanded on the 23rd the day the Adendorff sketch was done as it shows him slap bang in the middle while this is happening . '' The matter of collecting arms and equipment from our men was taken in hand at once , and took some little time . They were all , of course , allowed to retain their blankets , much to their joy - and with as much beef as they could stuff themselves with the night before being set free , all were in the highest spirits . I shall never forget the scene at their departure , we started them soon off after sunrise ( 24th ) and the whole mass of some 3,000 bounded gaily off , laughing and joking and performing all sorts of antics ''.
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3rd NNC.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:47 am

hI Julian .
A couple of points regarding your post April 1st 2.41 am .
Obviously with the letter being genuine your paper shortage idea doesnt hold . Adendorff or someone else had paper
because the letter exists , you yourself verify it's authenticity . The other point '' I promised you an account ''
to me seems to be directed to a family member , as it's a little to intimate to be put into the paper as such . As you are well aware many letters found their way via family members sending them to the papers of the day for publication , and this seems to be what's happened here . As I've said before, it was most likely translated by
a family member and sent off to the NW . You say the NW didnt say it was translated ? , how would they know
If it was ??. It doesnt show the writer in a great light but as no name was attached the LW had nothing to fear .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:58 am

90th
Surely that phrase, "as I promised you", intimates there was prievious correspondence. That brings up two issues, either: the writer had written prieviously or: there had been a physical communication.
If the first it would seem pretty short timing to have written of two letters. If the second then it would suggest a person that was at RD and had left.
One letter writer actually mentions in a letter home that it was scarce. Most of the letters written seem to be around the beginning of february. ( The Red Soldier is a great source ).
In terms of the Authenticity I would beg to differ, all that can be established is that the letter was published, not where it came from. Who it came from is the debate.

Again to stir the pot !

One person we do know that was interviewing all and sundry was Cpt Symons. Could be interesting to speculate that the level of English used was on his level? Also would not a story related to him of a person forcing another to release a horse at gun point possible offend his Upright English sensibilities?

Just another thought.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:04 am

90th
Let me qualify the phrase 'the letter being genuine': the publication of that letter was a fact; that I have established from the horse's mouth so to speak. Whether the letter itself is a fake or was written by a genuine participant has yet to be determined. I am inclined toward believing it was so written.
The paper shortage was not an idea. Several writers bemoan the absence of paper and pencil, not to mention all their belongings, in the immediate aftermath of Isan.
'I promised you an account' does not indicate an immediate family member necessarily, it might also be a close friend. What it does imply is a previous written communication - and there had been precious little time for that.
Why would a close friend/family member translate it to English and send it to a Natal paper - why not send it to the local Afrikaans paper? It's feasible, I know, but there's something that doesn't quite ring true about this.
Just looking at the letter overall, does it strike you as strange that the LW saw so much over the whole extent of the battlefield - the Carbineers, the Rocket battery, the guns, the left of the line?
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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:42 pm

Hi Julian .
'' Paper shortage Idea '' not well phrased on my behalf , we do know for a fact there was a shortage , but it seemed more so to the enlisted man , Harford had paper to sketch with , other officers more than likely had paper as well . I dont think it's strange that the LW
has written about what happened on the battlefield , as we are unsure of the LW 'S movements on the battlefield , you would think he's written what he'd seen . Possibly he was informed by others on certain going on's , but we will never know that for sure .

Springbok .
:lol: . You may need to add some water !. :lol:
cheers 90th. Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:04 pm

90th
Whilst it is true that it was more likely for officers to have writing materials than enlisted men, (a) we do not know if the anon LW was an officer and (b) anyone who escaped from Isandhlwana (and had lost his horse with saddlebags) would have escaped with just the shirt on his back and no personal effects of any kind. As the LW states at the end of his letter he can't even make a hot drink without borrowing the equipment needed for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:06 pm

Add water????
Bloody colonials. Rolling Eyes :lol: :lol:

Cheers Mate
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:14 pm

This from DCF Moodie.

Quoting in full the report prepared by Chard:
"About 3.15 on that dayI was at the ponts, when two men came riding from Zululand at a gallop, and shouted to be taken across the river. I was informed by one of them, Lieut Adendorff. of Lonsdales regiment (who remained to assist in the defence), of the disaster at iSandlwana camp, and that the Zulus were advancing at Rorkes Drift. The other carbineer rode of to take the news to helpmakaar."

Just to muddy the waters a tad.


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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:32 pm

Doesn't muddy anything. Just corroborates but sheds no light.
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:38 am

One mans darkness (mud) is another mans lack of light.

Korean philosopher.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:32 am

Wasn't it Napoleon who said 'I made all my generals out of mud'?
Mud's fine with me!
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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:41 pm

90th wrote:
Hi DB .
You say Harford Sketched Adendorff on the 24th , where did you come by this information ? .

90th

It was the 24th.

They were busy buring the dead on the 23rd and weren't given the safety of the barricades at the
night of the 23rd. I think Ian Knight in ZR covers this Salute


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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:44 pm

Hi DB.
Please read my earlier postings as Harford says the Natives were basically disbanded on the 23rd but DIDNT or Werent allowed to leave the camp till SUNRISE on the 24th !.( Which is what happened according to Harford's Journal ) . The sketch was certainly done the afternoon of the 23rd . I'll send you a pm .
cheers 90th. Salute


Last edited by 90th on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Quote :
Natives were basically disbanded on the 23rd

The duty to disband the NNC was given to Hamilton-Brown.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:23 am

Springbok wrote.

Quote :
Well I never?

LittleGland strikes again

I have no complaints from her indoors. Shocked
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90th

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PostSubject: Lt Adendorff 1 / 3 NNC.   Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:29 am

Hi Littlehand .

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

cheers 90th. Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:29 pm

Quote :
the question still remains, was Adendorff a coward or a hero

How can Adendorff be classed as a coward?

He escaped the same as every other survivor, call him a coward you'd have
to call everyone that left a coward.



Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:13 pm

He may have escaped from Isandlwana, but he is the only one that stayed at RD and fought along side the other defenders. He could have done what the other British officers had done and left RD to get on with it. The fact he wasn't British, does in my eyes put those officers in a bad light.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:01 am

Littlehand
Now thats what I call a delayed reaction !

Cheers Mate :lol:
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:58 am

impi
Don't be too quick to chide! Most of the officers were intent (a) on getting messages about Isandhlwana back into Natal or to Wood and (b) on reaching Helpekaar on the perfectly legitimate assumption that RD had fallen or was under attack, and that therefore the next best place to defend was Helpmekaar which is where they went to, barricaded, and were prepared to defend in the same way as RD till the last bullet. Most British and colonials went there under Essex's command. A few like Berning and Parsons didn't and galloped home - and who could blame them!
Compare the 1879 post-disaster coordination with the similar mess of 7/7 or 9/11 and remember 1879 wasn't 2012 either. Frankly, almost anything post-Isandhlwana can be forgiven, in my opinion.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:03 am

Couldnt agree more, PTS existed then as much as now, just didnt have a name.

Regards
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