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 Crealock's notebook.

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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:26 pm

Glad you mentioned personal observation. Being that Pearson wasn't at Isandlwana. He's doing what we are doing, speculating.

That said, perhaps we should establish how the chain of command worked back then. Can we find out for sure if Pulliene's orders wound have be binding on Durnford when he assumed command. Crealock thinks they should, but taking into account that he lied about the order of command he sent. We should some how find out ourselves.

So would the orders to defend the camp, be binding on Durnford?

And the other question, did Durnford have the right to hand back command to Pulleine? Bearing in mind he was ordered to the camp and taking into account. Ulundi's post.

"Quote:
Quote :
Durnford’s orders from Chelmsford may not have been explicit, but the implication was that he was to act as reinforcement for the camp in the absence of Glynn’s column and by his seniority would assume over-all command."
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:29 pm

Chelmsford's plans against the Matyanas was to use Durnford and Bengough in a pincer movement whilst he was the centre. It was hoped that Durnford and Bengough would flush out the zulus and drive them towards Chelmsford, then Durnford and Bengough would attack them from both flanks whilst Chelmsford would hit them from the front and between them they would either destroy them or force them to surrender.

Chelmsford's order to Durnford on the 19th is below.

1. You are requested to move the troops under your immediate command viz: mounted men, rocket battery and Sikeli's men to Rorke's Drify tomorrow on the 20th inst.; and to encamp on the left bank of the Buffalo (in zululand).
2. No 3 column moves tomorrow to the Isandhlana (sic) hill.
3. Major Bengough with his battalion native contingent at Sand Spruit is to hold himself in readiness to cross the Buffalo at the shortest possible notice to operate against the chief Matyana & c. His wagons will cross at Rourke's (sic) Drift.
4. Information is requested as to the ford where the above Battalion can best cross, so as to co-operate with No 3 column in clearing the country occupied by the chief Matyana.

So as you can see, Durnford was clearly ordered to co-operate with No 3 column by clearing the country occupied by the chief Matyana.

The order of the 22nd then tells him to move up to the camp with all the force he has with him of No 2 column, whilst Bengough's battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift. It also tells him that the General and Glyn are moving off to attack a zulu force about 10 miles distant, and that if Bengough's battalion has crossed the river at Eland's Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwane Valley).

Now do you understand?

He wasn't moved up to the camp to take command, reinforce, assist, or to help Pulleine, he was there to form one arm of a pincer movement with Bengough.

CTSG, You forgot to mention that when Durnford arrived at the camp Pulleine told Durnford that he was sorry that he had come to the camp, as with him being senior officer he would take over command, however, Durnford told Pulleine that he would not interfere with Pulleine's command of the camp, and that he was not staying there.

The reason why he was not staying there was because he had orders to co-operate with No 3 column and assist Chelmsford in clearing the country occupied by the Matyanas.

The officer in charge of the camp in the absence of Glyn was Pulleine, not Durnford.

Pulleine set out his defence of the camp according to Chelmsford's plans not Durnford's.

It's no good trying to blame Durnford for the mistakes that others made, read the evidence, and sort out the facts from the fiction, spot the lies and deception that others conspired to plant the blame onto Durnford, it is all there if you look for it.



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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:43 pm

But things had changed, when Dartnell requested assistance.

Quote :
He wasn't moved up to the camp to take command, reinforce, assist, or to help Pulleine, he was there to form one arm of a pincer movement with Bengough.
He assumed commard. You asked for evidence of this which was posted.

Quote :
CTSG, You forgot to mention that when Durnford arrived at the camp Pulleine told Durnford that he was sorry that he had come to the camp, as with him being senior officer he would take over command, however, Durnford told Pulleine that he would not interfere with Pulleine's command of the camp, and that he was not staying there.
Why didn't he mention this at the court of enquiry. Again he took command!

Quote :
The reason why he was not staying there was because he had orders to co-operate with No 3 column and assist Chelmsford in clearing the country occupied by the Matyanas.
Why did he take command?

Quote :
The officer in charge of the camp in the absence of Glyn was Pulleine, not Durnford.
Why did he take command.

Quote :
Pulleine set out his defence of the camp according to Chelmsford's plans not Durnford's.
No one is disputing this, but they were sent out to cover Durnford retreat.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:08 pm

who was second in command to Pulleine?
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:15 pm

John, I think it would have been "Degacher"

Ray, Not having much luck with this chain of command thing. Will look a bit more when i have time, good point you have raised. Salute
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:20 pm

Thanks LH. I was thinking "Melvill" perhaps because he stood up to Durnford. Thanks anyway.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 pm

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:46 pm

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:13 pm

Ray.

You say that things had changed, so why didn't Chelmsford leave fresh orders for Durnford?

'Assumed' is the correct word, people 'assumed' that Durnford had taken command with him being the senior officer.

Why didn't who mention it?

They were not sent out to cover Durnford's retreat, if you have Ian Knight's 'Zulu Rising' read what he says about it.

There is a difference between taking command in the 'official' sense, and being 'assumed' to have taken command in the 'technical' sense. Durnford said that he would not interfere with Pulleine's command of the camp, and that he wouldn't be staying at the camp. He had other orders, and those orders were to support Chelmsford, and that is just what he was trying to do.



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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:27 pm

Martin, your post of 19.29 could not be any clearer.
There is nothing more that can be said.
Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:42 pm

Thanks tasker, much appreciated.

Salute
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:56 pm

Quote :
You say that things had changed, so why didn't Chelmsford leave fresh orders for Durnford?
Martin, it gets confusing when you speak of fresh orders, he received fresh orders to move to the camp, which he obeyed. Being the senior officer, he took command as expected. Some members are now looking into the issue of, were Pulleines orders binding to Durnford?

Quote :
'Assumed' is the correct word, people 'assumed' that Durnford had taken command with him being the senior officer.
Your using assumed it the wrong context, but I think you know that!

Quote :
Why didn't who mention it?
Look at your original post, and it's clear to see, he hs referring to " Cochrane "

Quote :
They were not sent out to cover Durnford's retreat, if you have Ian Knight's 'Zulu Rising' read what he says about it.
Pulleine sent two Compaines to cover his retreat, the rest he drew up in line formation. If quoting from books " Zulu Rising" the sources used will be on the foot note, this is what you should quote, Ian Knght as his own opinion on what took place.

Quote :
There is a difference between taking command in the 'official' sense, and being 'assumed' to have taken command in the 'technical' sense. Durnford said that he would not interfere with Pulleine's command of the camp, and that he wouldn't be staying at the camp. He had other orders, and those orders were to support Chelmsford, and that is just what he was trying to do.

Then why did he take command of the camp.your assumed question has been answered above.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:00 pm

John

What were the 2 companies that Pulliene sent to cover Durnfords retreat ? Suspect




Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:04 pm

Martin, if it's any help. Your man "Cochrane" used the word "TOOK" over command.

5th Evidence.—Lieutenant Cochrane, 32nd Regiment, states: I am employed as transport officer with No 2 Column, then under Colonel Durnford, R.E., on the 22nd January, 1879, the column marched on that morning from Rorke's Drift to Isandlwana in consequence of an order received from the Lieutenant General. I do not know the particulars of the order received. I entered the Isandlwana camp with Colonel Durnford about 10 A.M., and remained with him as Acting Staff Officer. On arrival he took over command from Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment. Colonel Pulleine gave over to Colonel Durnford a verbal state of the troops in camp at the time, and stated the orders he had received, viz., to defend the camp, these words were repeated two or three times in the conversation. Several messages were delivered, the last one to the effect that the Zulus were retiring in all directions—the bearer of this was not dressed in any uniform. On this message Colonel Durnford sent two troops Mounted Natives to the top of the hills to the left, and took with him two troops of Rocket Battery, with escort of one company Native Contingent, on to the front of the camp about four or five miles off. Before leaving, he asked Colonel Pulleine to give him. two companies 24th Regiment. Colonel Pulleine said that with the orders he had received he could not do it, but agreed with Colonel Durnford to send him help if he got into difficulties. Colonel Durnford, with two troops, went on ahead and met the enemy some four or five miles off in great force, and, as they showed also on our left, we retired in good order to the Drift, about a quarterof a mile in front of the camp, where the mounted men reinforced us, about two miles from the camp. On our retreat we came upon the remains of the Rocket Battery which had been destroyed.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:11 pm

DB. I don't know which Compaines were sent. But that's not important in my books, but two companies were sent.

"3rd Evidence.—Captain Alan Gardner, 14th Hussars, states: I accompanied the main body of the 3rd Column as Acting Staff Officer to Officer commanding 3rd Column when it left the camp at Isandlwana on the 22nd January, 1879. I was sent back with an order from the General between ten and eleven A.M. that day into camp, which order was addressed to Colonel Pulleine, and was that the camp of the force out was to be struck and sent on immediately, also rations and forage for about seven days. On arriving in camp I met Captain George Shepstone, who was also seeking Colonel Pulleine, having a message from Colonel Durnford, that his men were falling back, and asking for reinforcements. We both went to Colonel Pulleine, to whom I delivered the order. Colonel Pulleine at first hesitated about carrying out the order, and eventually decided that the enemy being already on the hill on our left in large numbers, it was impossible to do so. The men of the 24th Regiment were all fallen in, and the Artillery also, and Colonel Pulleine sent two companies to support Colonel Durnford, to the hill on the left, and formed up the remaining companies in line, the guns in action on the extreme left flank of the camp, facing the hill on our left. I remained with Colonel Pulleine by his order. Shortly after, I took the mounted men, by Colonel Pulleine's direction, about a quarter of a mile to the front of the camp, and loft them there under the direction of Captain Bradstreet, with orders to hold the spruit. I went back to Colonel Pulleine, but soon after, observing the mounted men retiring, I went back to them, and, in reply to my question as to why they were retiring, was told they were ordered by Colonel Durnford to retire, as the position taken up was too extended This same remark was made to me by Colonel Durnford himself immediately afterwards. By this time the Zulus had surrounded the camp, "the whole force engaged in hand to hand combat, the guns mobbed by Zulus, and there became a general massacre. From the time of the first infantry force leaving the camp to the end of the fight about one hour elapsed. I estimated the number of the enemy at about 12,000 men. I may mention that a few minutes after my arrival in camp, I sent a message directed to the Staff Officer 3rd Column, saying that our left was attacked by about 10,000 of the enemy; a message was also sent by Colonel Pulleine. The Native Infantry Contingent fled as soon as the fighting began, and caused great confusion in our ranks. I sent messages to Rorke's Drift and Helpmakaar Camp that the Zulus had sacked the camp and telling them to fortify themselves,
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:29 pm

Gardner had it very wrong, Durnford sent Cavaye out before he left the camp to replace Capt. Barry on the Spur - Essex

Mostyn was sent to reinforce Cavaye after Cavaye's men began to fire, so it could retreat or hold its forward posistion.

Nothing to do with Durnford retreat Salute

All this is covered in Jackson's work.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:33 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
John

What were the 2 companies that Pulliene sent to cover Durnfords retreat ? Suspect




Cheers

He must be referring to G Coy 2/24th and Bradstreet's company.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:36 pm

Bradstreat didn't have a company, he had around 30 horsemen that Gardner rounded up.


Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:37 pm

DB. You make statements with such confidence. But you post nothing to back it.
Why would Durford ask for support, and why would Pulliene send two Compaines to support him. What do you think he means by support?


Martin. Not sure if this relevant, could it be that Durnford was doing as you say. See highlighted below.
Smith-Dorrient.
At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chelmsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorke's Drift for Colonel Durnford, R.E., who was expected there with reinforcements consisting of native levies. I rode back, 10 miles, arriving at Rorke's Drift just before dawn on the 22nd, and delivered my dispatch. It ought to have been a very jumpy ride, for I was entirely alone and the country was wild and new to me, and the road little better than a track; but pride at being selected to carry an important dispatch and the valour of ignorance (for I only realised next day that the country was infested with hostile Zulus) carried me along without a thought of danger. Colonel Durnford was just moving off with his levies towards Sandspruit (away from Isandhlwana), but on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:40 pm

John

Read Essex's report, Pulleine did not send out 2 companies to surport Durnford, he sent one first and when
that started firing at the Zulu Right Horn he sent another.

He didn't send 2 at once.

You want evidence, read the books, i've read all of them.



Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:43 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Bradstreat didn't have a company, he had around 30 horsemen that Gardner rounded up.


Cheers

DB14, stop being so pedantic and get into the real world!
No primary source statement is free of the occasional, small inaccuracy. Call it a force or a platoon then if you want to be pedantic.
The 2 bodies of men that covered Durnford's retreat to the camp were Bradstreet's mounted men and G Coy 2/24th
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:44 pm

Bradstreet, was ordered to hold the spruit, which was about half mile from the camp, Gardner took mounted men to him, but they were forced to retreat by order of Durnford.


Last edited by John on Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:46 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
John

What were the 2 companies that Pulliene sent to cover Durnfords retreat ? Suspect




Cheers

First you ask which coys were sent to cover D's retreat. Do you mean D's advance out of the camp or his retreat back to it?
Make your mind up.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:49 pm

Quote :
John
Read Essex's report, Pulleine did not send out 2 companies to surport Durnford, he sent one first and when
that started firing at the Zulu Right Horn he sent another.

He didn't send 2 at once.

You want evidence, read the books, i've read all of them.
Cheers

Where the hell did I say they sent two at once, I don't care if they did or didn't. I was posting an extract, from someone who was there, and who was standing next to Pulleine when he gave the order. If you going to quote from books have the decency to name the title. Jackson would come to mind in your case. The be and end all of what happen at Isandlwana.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:59 pm

John, you didn't.
I'm off Salute zzzzzzzzz
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:19 pm

Durfords orders 19th Jan 1879.
"1. You are requested to move the troops under your immediate command viz: mounted men, rocket battery and Sikeli's men to Rorke's Drify tomorrow on the 20th inst.; and to encamp on the left bank of the Buffalo (in zululand).
2. No 3 column moves tomorrow to the Isandhlana (sic) hill.
3. Major Bengough with his battalion native contingent at Sand Spruit is to hold himself in readiness to cross the Buffalo at the shortest possible notice to operate against the chief Matyana & c. His wagons will cross at Rourke's (sic) Drift.
4. Information is requested as to the ford where the above Battalion can best cross, so as to co-operate with No 3 column in clearing the country occupied by the chief Matyana."

John posted.

Martin. Not sure if this relevant, could it be that Durnford was doing as you say. See highlighted below.
Smith-Dorrient.
At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chelmsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorke's Drift for Colonel Durnford, R.E., who was expected there with reinforcements consisting of native levies. I rode back, 10 miles, arriving at Rorke's Drift just before dawn on the 22nd, and delivered my dispatch. It ought to have been a very jumpy ride, for I was entirely alone and the country was wild and new to me, and the road little better than a track; but pride at being selected to carry an important dispatch and the valour of ignorance (for I only realised next day that the country was infested with hostile Zulus) carried me along without a thought of danger. Colonel Durnford was just moving off with his levies towards Sandspruit (away from Isandhlwana), but on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march.

Why was Colonel Durnford moving towards Sandspruit. When his orders were to move to RD on the 20th.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:44 pm

CREALOCK'S statement.

"3. Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., was not under Colonel Glyn's command at this time; he had been moved from his original position before Middle Drift, with some 250 Mounted Natives, 200 of Sikalis footmen, the Rocket Battery, and one battalion of the 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent to the Umsinga District, on the Lieutenant-General's seeing the ease with which the Natal frontier could be passed in that part of the Buffalo River. The Lieutenant-General's order was therefore sent to him by me, being the only Head Quarter Staff Officer (except the Aide-de-Camps) with him. These details formed part of No. 2 Column under his command.
4. I sent the orders to him by Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, of 95th Foot, with directions to leave as soon as he could see his way. I expected him to find Colonel Durnford at the Bashee Valley; it was delivered and acted upon."

This also shows that any orders issued on the 19th were superseded by those on the 22nd Jan.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:27 am

Ulundi
If I recall correctly, Durnford accompanied by one NNH troop was on his way to Sand Spruit to buy horses or forage, I don't remember which, I think you'll find it in Davies's account. He was to return later. He never reached Sand Spruit as the message interrupted his journey.
John
The two companies refer to the LEFT of the line, i.e. Cavaye and Mostyns coys. Gardner is using the past tense 'sent' describing the situation, i.e. that which had already happened before Gardner's arrival. Cavaye would have been instructed to go to that position by Pulleine but this was at Durnford's order (see 'Essex' in Chelmsford's notes to the CoI) and Mostyn was sent/ordered by Pulleine after Durnford had left in order to reinforce Cavaye who was under some pressure.
Ray
You're making lots of errors of fact and wording in your postings which lead to assumptions that are just not tenable. There are too many to respond to here but you might check your facts before posting. I'll respond to just one: the whole chain of command thing is very simple and you're making far too much of it. Whilst Durnford was in the camp he had the senior rank and was in command. When he wasn't there, command fell to Pulleine (or Degacher as 2-i-C). Whether he was ordered to take command or not is irrelevant. Command fell to him naturally as the senior officer present. Chelmsford's orders were passed to him as it was natural for the man i/c to be fully apprised of the situation. Chelmsford;s orders were binding unless a situation arose which called for individual initiative on the part of the man i/c.
As for the rest, I'm not being critical, but they're diverting the train of thought and discussion.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:00 pm

Somewhere there must be a document, that will give us the definitive answer. Its ok being told thats how it worked, but something has to be shown to back it up. Based on the Victorian chain of command.

It's easy to say Gardner was working in the past tense!!

But he is clearly stating what he saw. And the fact he remained with Pulleine.

"
Quote :
Colonel Pulleine sent two companies to support Colonel Durnford, to the hill on the left, and formed up the remaining companies in line, the guns in action on the extreme left flank of the camp, facing the hill on our left. I remained with Colonel Pulleine by his order."

It appears we all have various ways of desifering the various orders.but when the statements where used as part of the equiry, they wasn't look at as though the writer was talking in past tense. they were offical documents of what the person witnessed. Guessing what he was trying to say, only confuses the issue more, as some members take it as fact!,
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:14 pm

Smith-Dorrian got it wrong. He did not see Durnford when he got to Rorke's Drift, he handed the orders to George Shepstone. Durnford was not on his way to Sand Spruit, he was on the road to the Dutch farms on the Biggarsberg for the purpose of commandeering Dutchmens wagons for the invasion.

Crealocks statement?? Would you trust anything that this creep said? It is well known that he conspired and lied to put the blame on Durnford to protect his own and Chelmsford's backsides, the man was a cretin first class.

The orders of the 22nd do not supersede the orders of the 19th, read them again, they are part of them.

Regarding Cochrane's statement that Durnford took command, he, like many of the officers, and like many of you, made the simple mistake that because Durnford was the senior man, he would be deemed to have taken command. But Cochrane later corrected himself about this when he stated what Pulleine said,; "I'm sorry you have come, as you are senior to me, and will of course take command", Colonel Durnford replied, "I'm not going to interfere with you, I'm not going to remain in the camp"

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:08 pm

Julian. Why do you think Durnford was order to the camp?

For me i'ts

1)The camp only had half of the original force.so would have made sense to reinforce.
2)The camp contained all the supplies.Which was needed to push forward to the intended target Ulundi. To support this the invasion was delayed, when it was lost.
3)Durnford being senior when he arrived took over command, from a less experienced officer. Chelmsford would have know that and his orders would have been binding to him.

Although the order wasn't detailed, it was clear enough to see what was required.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Quote :
Crealocks statement?? Would you trust anything that this creep said? It is well known that he conspired and lied to put the blame on Durnford to protect his own and Chelmsford's backsides, the man was a cretin first class.

The orders of the 22nd do not supersede the orders of the 19th, read them again, they are part of them.

Regarding Cochrane's statement that Durnford took command, he, like many of the officers, and like many of you, made the simple mistake that because Durnford was the senior man, he would be deemed to have taken command. But Cochrane later corrected himself about this when he stated what Pulleine said,; "I'm sorry you have come, as you are senior to me, and will of course take command", Colonel Durnford replied, "I'm not going to interfere with you, I'm not going to remain in the camp"

Martin your first comment, is your personal observation regarding Crealock.

Your second its trying to convince others Cochrane made a mistake again your personal observation. The debate cannot continue if you base in on what if's.

Cochrane made the first statement soon after,while it was fresh in his memory. We are all trying to stick to the facts!!
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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:27 pm

Just a line of thought. I think that it could be debatable about Cavaye, as nobody seems to know when he went to the ridge. The only mention in any of the documents that Durnford was responsible comes from Essex who says Durnford sent him to the hills. However, it could be that he was on the ridge shortly after Pulleine sent the message to Chelmsford, as it just seems to fit. The zulus appear, Pulleine is worried enough to send the note to Chelmsford, timed at 08.05. At that time there is only a detachment of the NNC on the Mkwene hill, and any commander worth his salt would want to protect his vulnerable flank, so could Pulleine have sent Cavaye and his men between 08.15 and 08.30? After that, Mostyn, Stafford Barry where all sent by Pulleine, AFTER Durnford had left.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:32 pm

Interesting to see Cavaye was sent by Durnford to the ridge, and not Pulleine!

Quote :
Pulleine is worried enough to send the note to Chelmsford, timed at 08.05.
Not sure if members agree, but this note didnt really give much detail or cause for concern?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:41 pm

SAS
Gardner used the past tense. 'Sent' is not 'send'.
Gardner is not "clearly stating what he saw". He wasn't at Isandhlwana when Cavaye was sent to the top of the spur. Gardner arrived an hour or so later.
Martin
Yes, I've just checked too, Durnford went to Sand Spruit to get waggons not forage/horses. Apologies.
impi
Durnford was not ordered to the camp.
impi/Martin
It is a fact that Durnford did take command.
Martin
Cavaye was sent to the top of the spur when Raw/Roberts went on to the plateau. They picked up Barry's coy and took it with them, which Durnford also seems to have 'requested'. A replacement picquet was needed on the spur. Cavaye was sent.
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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:42 pm

impi.

It is well known that Crealock told lies, therefor his statement cannot be trusted.

I am not trying to convince anyone that Cochrane made a mistake, and it is not my own personal observation, it is written in Cochrane's own account, and is therefor not a 'what if'.

Cochrane's full account is available for you to see and read for yourself, just google in 'The Cochrane accounts of iSandlwana', and you will be able to see for yourself that it is not my own personal observation.

You are wrong about why Durnford was moved up to the camp, read the orders and you will see why he was moved.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:56 pm

Quote :
It is well known that Crealock told lies, therefor his statement cannot be trusted
Personal observation.

But no one can contest that. He states he's the only person alive to tell the story. He should have mentioned this in the first instance. And Durnford did interfered with Pulleine’s command.

Quote :
You are wrong about why Durnford was moved up to the camp, read the orders and you will see why he was moved.
In your eyes only.

Julian.
Quote :
Yes, I've just checked too, Durnford went to Sand Spruit to get waggons not forage/horses. Apologies.
impi
And on receiving fresh orders to move to the camp he did.

Witness Statements, have to be taken on face value, as they would part of the offical investigation into the loss of the camp.

The chain of command issue will resolve a lot of the issues.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:03 pm

Julian.

You say that Durnford took command, yet Durnford told Pulleine that he would not interfere and would not be staying at the camp, so do you mean that Durnford took command 'technically' by default (being senior officer), or do you mean he took command 'officially' and therefor accepted the responsibility for the camp? Because it seems strange that someone takes command for less than an hour, then moves off to try to find out where the zulus were going that were reported as moving towards Chelmsford.

You see, to my way of thinking, Durnford had orders to support Chelmsford against the Matyanas, and came up to the camp to be able to carry out those orders. However, when he arrives and gets all the reports of zulu movements in the area, he can see that Pulleine has done little about it all, so he sends out his own men to try to get some better information, then he gets the report of zulus moving in the direction of Chelmsford, so he has to act on this just in case they are trying to cut LC off or attack him. So it would seem very odd to take command knowing that he was required by LC to support him in the action against the Matyanas.

Can you make things a little clearer about this?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:10 pm

impi.

Cochrane's account is dated 8th Feb 1879, less than a month after iSandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:11 pm

Quote :
Durnford took command 'technically' by default (being senior officer), or do you mean he took command 'officially' and therefor accepted the responsibility for the camp?

Martin this is what some members including myself are trying to establish. But as pointed out, its no use a well known Zulu War Author and Historian saying the chain of command worked in such away of his own back. Proof is needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:13 pm

Ok but he should have mentioned this at the court of enquiry. Why didn't he?
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:26 pm

Chelmsford's order to Durnford on the 19th is below.

1. You are requested to move the troops under your immediate command viz: mounted men, rocket battery and Sikeli's men to Rorke's Drift tomorrow on the 20th inst.; and to encamp on the left bank of the Buffalo (in zululand).

2. No 3 column moves tomorrow to the Isandhlana (sic) hill.

3. Major Bengough with his battalion native contingent at Sand Spruit is to hold himself in readiness to cross the Buffalo at the shortest possible notice to operate against the chief Matyana & c. His wagons will cross at Rourke's (sic) Drift.

4. Information is requested as to the ford where the above Battalion can best cross, so as to co-operate with No 3 column in clearing the country occupied by the chief Matyana


There is nothing in that order to indicate, (as Bengough’s orders do) that Durnford was required to co-operate with No 3 column against the Matyana's. He was to remain on the left bank of the Buffalo!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:28 pm

It certainly looks that way!,
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:47 pm

Looking at this from Zulu War Historian/Author John Young. Is could be used as a time-line.

!On 1st January, 1879, Durnford received orders from Lord Chelmsford ordering him to remain at the Middle Drift until the invasion, scheduled for the 11th January, was under way. When Durnford would be expected to co-operate between Pearson's Number 1 Column, which was to cross at the Lower Drift, and Colonel Richard Thomas Glyn's Number 3 Column, which was to ford the Buffalo River at Rorke's Drift.

On the afternoon of 11th January, Durnford paid a visit on Lord Chelmsford, who had now attached his headquarters to Glyn's force. He acquainted the General with some intelligence gleaned from messengers loyal to the Lutheran Bishop Hans Schreuder, before returning to his designated position.

At this time rumours and counter-rumours as to the Zulu dispositions were rife. Schreuder wrote to Durnford warning him of a threat of a Zulu incursion over the Middle Drift. Durnford received the message on 13th January. He hastily wrote a dispatch to Chelmsford apprising him of the supposed threat, and that he intended to meet the enemy on the Zulu side of the Middle Drift.

At 2 a.m. on 14th January, Durnford roused his men, and readied them for a forced march at 4 a.m. As Durnford was on the summit of Kranz Kop preparing to descend into the valley leading towards the drift a galloper from Lord Chelmsford met him.

The dispatch from Chelmsford was forthright and to the point:

Dear Durnford,

Unless you carry out the instructions I give you, it will be my unpleasant duty to remove you from your command, and to substitute another officer for officer for the commander of No. 2 Column. When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column under his command. Your neglecting to obey my instructions in the present instance has no excuse. You have simply received information in a letter from Bishop Schroeder[sic], which may or may not be true and which you have no means of verifying. If movements ordered are to be delayed because report hints at a chance of an invasion of Natal, it will be impossible for me to carry out my plan of campaign. I trust you will understand this plain speaking and not give me any further occasion to write in a style which is distasteful to me.

Chelmsford.

This is where it seemed to fall apart for Durnford. Could it be LC couldn't trust him anymore????


The following day Durnford was ordered to the vicinity of Rorke's Drift, with a few companies of his N.N.C., five troops of the N.N.H., and a rocket battery under the command of Brevet Major Francis Broadfoot Russell.

On 19th, Durnford received further orders to relocate the force under his immediate command to the Zulu bank of Rorke's Drift. On the 20th Number 3 Column reached Isandlwana.

On 21st, Lord Chelmsford sent out a two-pronged reconnaissance to ascertain the whereabouts of any Zulu forces. Elements of the reconnaissance came into contact with Zulu forces late in the afternoon. Messages were passed back to Chelmsford at Isandlwana requesting reinforcements.

In the early hours of the morning of Wednesday, 22nd January, 1879, Chelmsford made the decision to divide Number 3 Column, leaving one half at Isandlwana, whilst marching out with the other to meet the Zulu threat.

At 3 a.m., Lieutenant Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien, of the 95th (Derbyshire) Regiment of Foot, a special service officer detailed to transport duties, was ordered to return to Rorke's Drift. He carried orders for Durnford, instructing him to the camp at Isandlwana with the forces at his disposal.

Durnford received the orders at about 7 a.m. Durnford moved on towards Isandlwana with his mounted troops, having given orders for his infantrymen to follow on"


I'm sure there is a letter, where Durnford claims to have been left behind????
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:07 pm

Well that puts the order on the 19th issue to bed!! Salute Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Ray.

Julian has corrected you before about this, you are assuming and guessing again, and again you are wrong.

Do you think that Bengough was a different column or something?

What column did Bengough belong to?

Who's command was Bengough under?

Why do you think Durnford got the order saying what Bengough had to do?

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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:28 pm

Dave.

How does it put the order of the 19th to bed?




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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:32 pm

Martin. More to the point, why doesn't it put it put it to bed?
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PostSubject: Re: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:36 pm

Impi

How is it a personal observation that Crealock lied ? He lied about the order he sent and when he got his note book
back he didn't come forward and say he was wrong.
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PostSubject: Crealock's notebook.   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:46 pm

Hi LH.

For the simple reason that there were no other orders for Durnford waiting at the camp from Chelmsford cancelling out the earlier orders. Therefor, his original orders were the ones he had to go by, if Chelmsford wanted Durnford to do anything other than what he was ordered to do, then he should have made this clear and left him orders confirming this.
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