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[Mac & Shad] Isandula Collection)
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 SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.

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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Alleged cruelty   Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:09 pm

Hi springy.

I am not trying to justify any retribution by the British, Colonial or other (zulu) soldiers against the zulu's. What I am saying is that the wounded zulu's were shown mercy and given medical treatment for their wounds, but for a thank you, they snubbed the care they received, and threw the dirt from iSandlwana in the faces of those that showed them compassion. I am not trying to condone any cases were they were hung for being spies, shot, bayonetted or assegai'd, but after some men seeing what the zulu's could do to their mates, it is a wonder that there were not more retributions afterwards, and is it not right that many, if not most of these retributions were carried out by other zulu tribes that opposed Cetshwayo?

Are you watching the IPL 20 overs Cricket on TV mate, they are playing in Jimjams (pyjamas) I think, :p;:

Salute

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:03 pm

It's always the British who are expected, to show kindness to those who would kill them. So easy for non-British to say otherwise. The British will be civilised to those who are civilised towards them. You can't have your cake and eat it all f the time. And not all British are the same, there are those who couldn't give a dam, they had a job to do.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:28 am

The Battle of Isandlwana, along with individual events and personal losses, created a desire for revenge which was not present before the battle. Chares Norris best describes the development;

Many a vow of vengeance was breathed in the stillness of the night; and many and deep were the sobs that came from the breasts of men who perhaps, had never sobbed before, at discovery even by that dim light, of the bodies of dear friends, brutally massacred.”
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:31 pm

The British and Irish are not above a bit of slap and tickle, IF, they think they can get away with it, believe me!

Martin's anecdote about Zulus being treated and then throwing dirt in the faces of the compassionate ones reminds me of a story from NI in some ways:
A shop was being evacuated after an IRA bomb warning. A woman outside was screaming hysterically, as her baby was still in the shop. A British soldier ran into the evacuated shop and brought out her baby, shielding the baby from the blast as the shop went up. The baby survived, but as the stricken soldier lay dying with his back torn open, the locals spat on his broken body, including the mother of the baby he had just rescued.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:22 am

Tasker
Reminds me of patroling through Omagh when the Landie blew up. I got thrown out, pretty badly banged up. An elderly couple gently took me into their cottage, made me comfortable and started to look at my injuries. Whilst doing so the old man said:" So my buoy tell me now are ye Protestant or Catholic." In spite of the injuries I thought pretty quickly and blurted out,"Im Jewish."
There was a momentary pause then he said, "Begorah I must be the luckiest Arab in Ireland."
:p;:

Sorry no offence meant. Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:47 am

But if the old man had asked you to drop your keks to prove it, would he have been satisfied with the evidence Springy? :p;:


Sounds like you were lucky enough to run into a decent couple there who were brought up in an Omagh before the troubles - I reckon the old man would have got you no matter what you'd said!
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Alleged cruelty   Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:33 am

Hi springy.

You should have said you were an Atheist :p;: :p;: :p;:

Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:54 am

Hi Springbok .
Very good , quick thinking at its best ! . :p;: :p;:
Cheers 90th. Very Happy
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:22 pm

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:39 am

There seems to be quite a few of reports coming to light!  

Reading between the lines.

Wolseley states.

" He believed no Zulus have been killed by white men, except in action"

By we know, native units took great pleasure in dispatching wounded Zulus.

There's is nothing to say, the British didn't allow this to take place!
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS   Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:05 pm

Sad Sad War is a cruel business but to say Zulu or British committed no cruel acts is simply not true on page 102 of Cetshwayo's Dutchman by Cornelius Vijn between 400 to 500 Zulu Men Women and Children were hiding in a cave were dynamite was used  to blew the caves up and we all know what horrors Chelmsford and his men saw on returning to the Isandlwana battlefield
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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:40 pm

Aussie
Greetings and welcome to the forum, unfortunatly war is a cruel business. Ive read that story you have quoted, there is no proof it actually happened though, in europeon or zulu history.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: The Zulu war - Alleged cruelty of the British trops - Question    Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:33 pm

Hi Springbok.
The blowing up or more to the point the sealing of the cave did indeed happen , two soldiers were killed ,
Sgt E.Smith 1644 2 / 4 and Corp .I . Pomfret 910 2 / 4th , these two being the last two casualties of the Zulu War. This incident took place at or near Luneberg on the 8 / 9 / 79 .
Cheers 90th. Salute 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Hi 90th
I was refering to the 500 dead.
I dont recal that ever being proven?

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:59 pm

On 8 September two NCOs of the 4th Regiment were killed in skirmishing
outside Mbilini’s caves and in retaliation the British decided to seal up the mouths of the caves with
gun-cotton, despite the fact that there were some thirty people still sheltering inside. According to one
report,
The Engineers, under Captain Courtney, were employed blasting the rocks; but I believe their
efforts were fruitless, at least as far as the outcasts were concerned. For, despite the incessant
shocks from the concussion of the slabs of dynamite, which were employed on the occasion, we
were totally unsuccessful in driving them from their location. (3)
The Engineers eventually succeeded in sealing the caves; none of the Zulus emerged alive. And
upon this rather inglorious note the slaughter of the Anglo-Zulu War ended.

30 to 500? Thats what I call inflation
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:08 pm

Springbok wrote:
The Engineers eventually succeeded in sealing the caves; none of the Zulus emerged alive
If they sealed the caves, how could the Zulu's inside emerge?
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90th

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PostSubject: Alleged Cruelty of British Troops    Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:49 am

Hi Springy
Thanks for posting the info on the cave , I knew there were some in the cave , but had never heard of the number
being 500 ! . Salute 
Cheers 90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:59 am

Chard
Tiny little zulus?

Very Happy 
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:20 am

were they Dead!
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:23 am

were they Dead!
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Thanks to all for your warm welcome   Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:55 am

springbok9 wrote:
Aussie
Greetings and welcome to the forum, unfortunatly war is a cruel business. Ive read that story you have quoted, there is no proof it actually happened though, in europeon or zulu history.

Cheers
Thanks so much for the info everyone provided,  I would love to share with you some photos and get some feed back from you all but I dont know how, can you please help
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:44 pm

Molyneux witnessed an incident, where an act of compassion by the British troops, was noticed
by Zulu messengers sent back to Ulundi, during Cetshwayo’s attempt to peacefully end hostilities
without another slaughter, in early June 1879. In his mind, this did enhance public relations by
writing that:

‘These messengers, must have been reassured by one curious sight. That day an old Zulu woman,
in the last stage of decrepitude, had been found in a deserted kraal; some men hearing moans
proceeding from a bundle that looked like a chrysalis, had in the kindness of their hearts brought the nuisance into the camp. She had been wrapped up tightly in a fresh hide, raw side inwards, put out in the sun to harden ( so that the skin might protect her from the dogs), and then deserted.Our men had cut a peephole for the naked skeleton, and were feeding her with green mealies, which is all she would eat; but her great joy was snuff made out of Cavendish tobacco. Our fellows did what they could for her till she died and then gave her a decent burial.’


Further acts of compassion were reported, including that of Lieutenant-Colonel Lonsdale Hale,Royal Engineers, who demonstrated an interest in the welfare of Zulus who had lost all, following the wholesale burning of their kraals in and around the Umlalazi Plains. During the evacuation of troops from Port Durnford in late August 1879, Hale organised a substantial distribution of mealies and mealie-meal to the near-starving natives.

See we're not all bad!!!
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— ALLEGED CRUELTY OF THE BRITISH TROOPS.—QUESTION.   Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:19 pm

A bit of compassion!

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