WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Colonialism: A Moral Legacy
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyYesterday at 5:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyYesterday at 11:37 am by lydenburg

» Writing advice
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash

» Sergeant W E Warren RA - Veteran
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 9:32 pm by Matthew Turl

» Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu Dawn
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» 100,000 posts!
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra

» British rations and morale
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» William J Hoare 24th Regiment??
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash

» Swinburn Carbine issue in AZW
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young

» Philip Price
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra

» About the second invasion
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Watford band boys killed at iSandlwana
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN

» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997

» What was the distance?
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan

» Mrs Henry Hook
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny

» "With 6 good riflemen"
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyMon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» What was G company supposed to do?
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William Wylie
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young

» South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60th
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody

» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie

» Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-Tynte
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
Dash
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
Hobbes
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
Bill8183
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
SRB1965
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
John Young
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
ADMIN
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
jgregory
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
90th
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
DavidS
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_leftISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 BarISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Bar_right 
New topics
» Colonialism: A Moral Legacy
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyYesterday at 5:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyYesterday at 11:37 am by lydenburg

» Writing advice
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 8:57 pm by Hobbes

» 100,000 posts!
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 17, 2024 11:14 am by ADMIN

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 8:27 pm by Rob Herrick

» British rations and morale
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:24 pm by Hobbes

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell

» About the second invasion
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes

Similar topics
    Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
    Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
    Fair Use Notice
    Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
     

     ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS

    Go down 
    +39
    xhosa2000
    John Young
    SRB1965
    steve.333
    Chard1879
    Markus135
    waterloo50
    cam simpson
    rusteze
    ymob
    Taff price
    Younghusband
    Ulundi
    impi
    24th
    Drummer Boy 14
    tasker224
    dhragonheart
    Julian Whybra
    kwajimu1879
    trooper
    rai
    Frank Allewell
    horsefixer
    Suem
    Chelmsfordthescapegoat
    old historian2
    Dave
    littlehand
    SirDCC
    izabel
    LadyCat
    Mr Greaves
    ADMIN
    garywilson1
    90th
    1879graves
    John
    joe
    43 posters
    Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
    AuthorMessage
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:28 pm

    Taff
    Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle. He didn't have any men to leave!!

    All
    One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite.
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:38 pm

    Julian Whybra wrote:
    Taff
    Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle.  He didn't have any men to leave!!

    All
    One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite.

    Bonsoir Mister Whybra,
    Can you give us his name? (Chermside? Gooding? / Raymond? / Hallaghan?)
    Cheers
    Frédéric
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    rusteze

    rusteze


    Posts : 2871
    Join date : 2010-06-02

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 10:48 pm

    Keep them guessing Julian. I only say that because I know the answer, having recently acquired a copy of England's Sons with an addendum!

    Steve
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Feb 26, 2015 11:26 pm

    Steve,
    Give me the name and i tell you the source for FROWEN. Very Happy
    Cheers
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 7:28 am

    Gooding (acknowledgement to Rai England)
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 7:54 am

    Well done Julian & Rai , good work . You need to study mo
    90th
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Feb 27, 2015 8:17 am

    90th wrote:
    Well done Julian & Rai , good work . You need to study mo
    90th

    Thank you Mister Whybra/
    Cheers
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    Taff price




    Posts : 37
    Join date : 2015-02-14
    Age : 49
    Location : cardiff

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 28, 2015 8:20 pm

    Hi Littlehand /Julian
    Yes, Thanks! I stand corrected.
    Because of his conduct in trying to help other soldiers during his dramatic escape from the battlefield, he was nominated for a Victoria Cross, but, as the nomination did not go through the proper channels, he never received it.
    Which is a shame, he deserved one.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Feb 28, 2015 11:04 pm

    Nominated?
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 6:50 am

    Suggested?
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 6:53 am

    Hi Taff
    Horace Smith - Dorrien basically went over his superiors head to go to South Africa , as his superior wouldnt release him , Horace went higher , and subsequently gained approval . The paperwork for Horace's VC  went through the wrong channels if memory serves me correctly , Horace , I think , wasnt impressed , but , as he said in his book ( ? ) 50 years or so after the AZW ,  he saw many , many more actions in WW1 worthy of a VC rather than his own effort in 1879 .  I dont have the book but the wording is similar , I think it's mentioned in his book , or , possibly him being quoted later in life . You need to study mo
    Cheers 90th You need to study mo
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Suvivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Mar 01, 2015 7:01 am

    Possibly Recommended ? .
    90th
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 pm

    Has anyone seen a reference to Thomas Clear (Lt 1/3NNC) escaping Isandlwana as I found him mentioned in the correspondence of George Massey-Hicks wrote:

    ‘Eastern Province Herald’: 7.2.79 (Friday); At midnight (Thursday) the following telegram, addressed to his brother, was received from Capt. Geo R. Massey-Hicks, 1-3rd Regt of the Natal Native Contingent:-“Pietermaritzburg, Jan 30, 8.10pm – Myself and W Hicks are well, with thirty-eight officers from the Cape. Officers killed: Krohn, Lonsdale, Erskine, McCormack, Avery, Jameson, Chambers, Young, Murray and Pritchard. Narrow escapes: Vaines, Higginson, Ardendorff, and Clear. Will write next mail”.

    Thomas Clear for info was born in Ireland in 1853 and served with the FAMP between 1870-73. He was also in the Kaffriarian Rifles during the Ninth Frontier War. After the AZW he served with the Griqualand West Border Police.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    ymob

    ymob


    Posts : 2268
    Join date : 2010-10-22
    Location : France

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 8:17 pm

    Bonjour,
    I don'd find his name in the list of European survivors and possible European survivors in "England's sons: a casualty and survivors roll of British Combatants for the battle of Isandhlwana and the defense of Rorke's Drift" by Mr Julian Whybra.
    Cheers
    Frédéric
    Back to top Go down
    http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
    waterloo50

    waterloo50


    Posts : 600
    Join date : 2013-09-18
    Location : West Country

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyThu Sep 10, 2015 9:33 pm

    I think that it is 'Recommended for' and then 'awarded' the VC, when you have been awarded the VC you are then referred to as the 'Recipient'.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:26 am

    Cam
    All I can offer is that Lt T. Clear is on the Roll in Terry Sole's book ' For God , Queen & Colony ' other than his name that's all that is in the book . I'll check again later I've got to go out for a while .
    90th You need to study mo
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:50 am

    Very interesting.  Not seen that before.  He does get his precise figure very wrong for the total as well.
    In my listings he's certainly out with Chelmsford.  There's also no corroboration from another source for Clear's having been at the camp and the opposite is true (others giving officers escaped name only Vaines, Adendorff and Higginson).
    For the moment he has to go down as a possible survivor until a second confirmatory can be found.
    Well done!


    Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:25 am

    Couple of errors in that list from memory. Erskine comes straight to mind. I don't have Clear at Helpmakaar either, Nourse, Smythe and Stafford yes.
    For some reason, no idea why, I seem to recall him as J Clear?

    Cheers
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:40 am

    Frank
    No, Capt. Charles A. Erskine (o/c no. 4 coy) was killed. You're confusing him with Wallace Erskine.
    42 officers from that unit were with Chelmsford.
    I also have the initial as J. for Lieut. Clear although I note that the 'Thomas' does not come from Massey-Hicks.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:53 am

    Ah yes, sorry all from memory at present, out of town on safari.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:58 am

    Cam
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1626
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 6386
    PART 2
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. APPOINTED AS SUB-INSPECTOR. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1906
    ENDING 1906



    Document 2 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1703
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 4908
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. ANNUAL REPORT ON. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1906
    ENDING 1906
    REMARKS REPORT INCLUDED.



    Document 3 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1789
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 12416
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J AND DE KOCK, AN. SERGEANTS. TRANSFER OF. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1907
    ENDING 1907



    Document 4 of 5
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG
    TYPE LEER
    VOLUME_NO 1807
    SYSTEM 01
    REFERENCE 13978
    PART 1
    DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. DISCHARGE AND PENSION. KIMBERLEY.
    STARTING 1908
    ENDING 1909
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:06 am

    Looks like J then!
    That's what I've got from NNC lists.
    I really think this can only be a possible at the moment (and an unlikely one at that) given the contemporary lists that specifically mention the escapees and those out with LC.
    But then, who knows what has still to turn up?
    The question in my mind is why would Massey-Hicks bother to mention him? He couldn't have confused him with another officer because there was no other escaped officer to confuse him with. Could he have confused him with an escaped anonymous N.C.O. perhaps?
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:29 am

    Last one then Im off chasing Elephants

    Document 17 of 26
    DEPOT KAB
    SOURCE AG Collection
    TYPE Photo
    REFERENCE AG8635
    DESCRIPTION Anglo-Boer War. Group of Boer prisoners, Tent F, Bellevue
    Camp, Simonstown. Back row from left to right: Schalk M,
    Koot M, F Clear, J Wille, J Clear and F Wille. Second row
    from left to right: John, Japie M, Henry and Sybrand. Front
    row from left to right: W Tylor, T Tyler, W Wille and W
    Clear.
    STARTING 0000
    ENDING 0000
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 10:31 am

    The Kimberly connection fits with the Griquland West reference.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 11:44 am

    Cam Simpson
    You said you found this remark in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks. Can you tell me whether this is a printed version or is it the original hand-written docs? I'm trying to exclude the possibility of a mistranscription. If it's a published book can you give me the source so I can check the original please?
    Thanks.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:25 pm

    It does look like a 'J'. I believe I extracted the 'Thomas' from the Griqualand Police Records which I'll re-check.

    Julian, it was a very small newspaper article and of course could have been miss-trancribed from the original letter.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:32 pm

    Cam Simpson
    Thanks. Just to be clear...you're saying it was not in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks, you actually saw a newspaper article in which this appeared. Can you tell me the newspaper, its date (soon after 7.2.79 I imagine) and if possible the page number.
    S. African newspapers would often re-print each others' stories. This might be a re-print of something that appeared in the Eastern Province Herald that was taken from a telegram so the possibility for a mistranscription to creep in is there. I'd like to track down the original source and check it.
    Thank you in advance.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 12:57 pm

    Looking at my Griqualand West Border Police notes right now:

    CLEAR Thomas. (Beyond a doubt).
    Attested 9.12.81 Constable, GWBP (No13) Age 30.
    Previous Service: 2 years, 5 Months, FAMP 1870-72.
    Kaffrarian Rangers, Gaekeka War 1878.
    'in Lonsdales Contingent and Bettington's Horse in Zulu War 1879'.
    Discharged (Reduction of the Force) 30.8.86.

    Father: Denis Clear. Mother Anne Clear.

    Its a possibility he changed his name, but in saying that they needed to provide testimonials and discharge papers.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:02 pm

    Yes, I read it in the 'Eastern Province Herald' for 7.2.79 and looks like it was the first paper to print it. I've yet to see it in another but in saying that it was very small and I was lucky to notice it.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:09 pm

    There is at least one brother.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:11 pm

    There were two J. Clears in the Police in Kimberley:

    CLEAR John. Born Dublin, Ireland 15.8.1858. Enlisted 1.8.81. Detective, Kimberley. Detective Enlisted CMR 2.8.81. Sergeant 1.3.01. Transferred to Detective Departmemt 9.8.01. Sub-Inspector c1909.

    CLEAR John. Kilkenny, Ireland. Enlisted 1.10.84 (Age 25). Constable, District No2, Cape Police (No120). Transferred to the Diamond Detective Department 1.5.97.

    I'm yet to find a Thomas or J Clear in the Kaffrarian's or the FAMP….more questions that answers in this chap.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:13 pm

    Julian, I'll be back in amongst the newspapers next week and will re-visit the EPH.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:16 pm

    Cam
    Is there an F Clear?
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 1:50 pm

    Not that I can see Frank.

    I noticed that Terry Sole has him listed as 'T. Clear' also. When I get time, I'll dig into ancestry.com to pin the family down.

    Back to top Go down
    rusteze

    rusteze


    Posts : 2871
    Join date : 2010-06-02

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:05 pm

    A couple of extracts from the original medal rolls. Clear (no initial) Bettington's Horse. Clear William and Clear John, A Troop 3rd Cape Mounted Yeomanry.
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    Steve
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 2:55 pm

    Strange, there is a William John Clear, declared insolvent in 1900 and a lunatic a few years later. Im also picking up mention of an Edmond Clery
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:06 pm

    Let me pose a possible solution to this conundrum.

    I don’t mean to be long-winded but let me explain my reasoning.

    All the evidence states that Lieut. J. Clear was out on the Mangeni Reconnaissance.

    Yet we have a captain in the 1/3rd NNC making a clear statement (no pun intended) that ‘Clear’ was a survivor.

    Both can’t be true.  Or can they?

    We know that there was a John Clear, a Thomas Clear (that was in “Lonsdale’s Force”), and even an F. Clear.  A possible family of Clears.  Not unusual to have several of them in one unit.  Like the Scotts or the Symons or the Tarbotons.

    Massey-Hicks gives two lists: Officers Killed and Narrow Escapes.  Lieut. J. Clear was one of 43 N.N.C. officers not 40 (38 plus Hicks and Massey-Hicks).  Massey-Hicks’s list of Officers Killed omits Holcroft, Bruce (often mistranscribed as Buée) and Grant (all 1/3rd) and Gibson, Rivers and Vereker (all 2/3rd); the Narrow Escapes misspells Adendorff.  Ergo Massey-Hicks made mistakes and omissions.

    We know that there were two 1/3rd NCOs who escaped Isandhlwana and whose names we don’t know (they are nos. M76 and 77 in England’s Sons).  How about if Massey-Hicks is not referring to Lieut. J. Clear but to a Sergt. or Corp. T(homas) Clear?  That way the Lieut. J. Clear can be on the Mangeni and the NCO T. Clear can be at Isandhlwana.

    I suggest Terry Sole has confused the matter by stating in his book that Lieut. T. Clear was a survivor.  I think he has ‘assumed’ that the Clear referred to by Massey-Hicks was the same man as Lieut. J. Clear.

    It’s a thought and I could be wrong but it might explain the discrepancy.  Thoughts?

    The proof would lie in a complete list of NCOs in the 1/3rd NNC. Any takers?
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 8:22 pm

    Ah yes, how many pipes (cups of tea) was that solution worth? Soon as Im back in town I will meet up with Cam for coffee and compare notes but in the mean time its an early game drive so time for a glass of something and sleep.

    Cheers
    PS I believe that a solution could lay in the archives and the references to J Clear Diamond Detective.
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptyFri Sep 11, 2015 9:39 pm

    Julian, that all makes sense. I've got some more notes on the two John Clear's that were in Kimberley in the 1880's so I'll try and get these together over the weekend.

    Frank, I believe your right about the files in the achieves. Lieutenant's Festing and Garde of the NNC both later became Constables and had very detailed pension files.

    See you when your back in town.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 4:05 am

    Hi All
    Is it possible Massey - Hicks just mentioned or meant T.Clear as being a survivor of the '' DAY '' , and not necessarily meaning the actual battle at Isandlwana , possibly because of to whom he was writing , knew T. Clear personally ? . Hope this made sense ? .
    90th scratch
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:05 am

    90th, Indeed and the assumption must be that his brother knew these people other wise why mention a name.

    Julian, what's the source that places Clear with Dartnel?

    Thinking about the NCO angle I looked through my notes from the Natal Mercury (27 Jan 79) that provides a list Officers and NCO's and men serving with Lonsdale and it does mention 'T. Clear' as being a Lieut. He's the only Clear on this particular roll. (22 Captains, 42 Lt's, 57 Sgt's & 35 Cpl's). Obviously like all roll's it's riddled with mistakes.


    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    Frank Allewell

    Frank Allewell


    Posts : 8572
    Join date : 2009-09-21
    Age : 77
    Location : Cape Town South Africa

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:22 am

    Yeah I know this has absolutely nothing to do with the subject in question and Im probably going to get a b*******g from Pete but what the hell this is my early morning view.
    [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

    Cam
    Next week lm going to spend a couple of hours in the archives, maybe get together in Dunkly Square for lunch?
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 6:52 am

    Frank, sounds great, I've got an Archives to do list; Estate Papers etc of former NNC Men. Let me know what day.

    Cam.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isaslwana Survivors    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 7:36 am

    Hi Frank
    I hope breakfast was as good as the view ? LOL .
    90th Joker Shocked Shocked
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 8:28 am

    Frank
    The only other possibility is a mistranscription or an error.
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 9:25 am

    There is another possibility by which J or T Clear could have been described as having a narrow escape.  What if he carried either Pulleine or Gardner's message? I believe Hayhow carried one of them but the other...?
    Back to top Go down
    cam simpson




    Posts : 90
    Join date : 2014-10-10

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 5:51 pm

    Yes, or even an unknown event with Dartnel's force that has been lost to time.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySat Sep 12, 2015 8:37 pm

    Hi Cam
    Quite possible , unfortunately we may never know No
    90th Salute
    Back to top Go down
    Julian Whybra




    Posts : 3950
    Join date : 2011-09-12
    Location : Billericay, Essex

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 9:46 am

    Actually I think we shall get to the bottom of this. I have a few things to check and I know Frank has. As an absolute last resort Clear will have had descendants and they may hold docs or oral history that will confirm one way or the other. Forgive the cliche but time will tell.
    Back to top Go down
    90th

    90th


    Posts : 10881
    Join date : 2009-04-07
    Age : 67
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 Empty
    PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS - Page 3 EmptySun Sep 13, 2015 9:52 am

    I hope so Julian , would be excellent to possibly have T. Clear recorded as an Isandlwana survivor , one way or the other .
    90th
    Back to top Go down
     
    ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
    Back to top 
    Page 3 of 7Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
     Similar topics
    -
    » Rorke's Drift Survivors 1932

    Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
    Jump to: