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 ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS

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cam simpson



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:09 pm

I'm going to revisit the original article this week and also get into some of the more obscure SA Papers to see what other little gems of info are buried away.
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:29 pm

Good Stuff Cam Salute
90th You need to study mo
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cam simpson



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:08 pm

I've just re-read the article in the Eastern Province Herald and there's a slight curve-ball in as much as the name Lea is used with Clear in brackets with a question mark. Its exactly as it appears below.

So who inserted the question mark, Massey-Hicks or the EPH Editor? I cannot find an officer by the name of Lea.

Below the article is a guess as to what NNC Companies were in the battle.

‘Eastern Province Herald’: 7.2.79 (Friday) Page 6; At midnight (Thursday) the following telegram, addressed to his brother, was received from Capt. Geo R. Massey-Hicks, 1-3rd Regt of the Natal Native Contingent:-“Pietermaritzburg, Jan 30, 8.10pm – Myself and W Hicks are well, with thirty-eight officers from the Cape. Officers killed: Krohn, Lonsdale, Erskine, McCormack, Avery, Jameson, Chambers, Young, Murray and Pritchard. Narrow escapes: Vaines, Higginson, Ardendorff, and Lea (?Clear). Will write next mail”.

NNC Companies numbered as follows as Isandhlwana:
1st Bn – No6 (Krohn), No9 Lonsdale.
2nd Bn – No4 (Erskine), No10 (Murray).
Jameson and Vaines No9 Coy 1/3NNC.
Lt Higginson Adjt & Chambers QM.

Cam.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:34 pm

2nd Battalion
Murray No1
Erskine No 4
Barry No 5
I think?

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:11 pm

Cam
Ive located the parents, Denis was a police constable in Uitenhage ( Port Elizabeth) his wife was Mary Ann. Im looking up her will, she died in 1890. I cant at this stage locate his death or will. Hopefully there will be a number of beneficiaries to the will.

Cheers

PS looking at Wednesday for the archives but that could change, I will give you a call soon as its definite.
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cam simpson



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:36 pm

Frank, thats great stuff, hopefully we'll get this one nailed soon. The companies was the EPH speculating and trying to make sense of it all. The same edition issued a revised list of casualties but nothing out of the ordinary.

I'm good for Wednesday; I've got a decent size list together of MOOC & GH Records to pursue; Krohn, Rutherford, the two Rangers brothers etc; should be a great day of discovery. On the Ranger brothers, it looks like Captain J.M. Stevenson (Two Frontier Wars) was there step-father; I'm hoping W. Stevenson (Stephenson) NNC will fit into the picture some how.

Cam.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:41 pm

Cam
For info the companies were:

1st Bn – No 6 (Krohn), No 9 (Lonsdale).
Higginson was 6 and adjutant, Adendorff 6, Jameson 9, Vaines 9, Avery 1, Holcroft 2
QM McCormack, Surgeon Bruce, Interpreter Grant

2nd Bn – No 4 (Erskine), No 5 (Barry), No 1 (Murray).
Pritchard was 1, Vereker 5. Young, Gibson, Rivers not known.
QM Chambers
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cam simpson



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:06 pm

Cheers Julian.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:23 pm

This reminds me that as the Reconnaissance force was leaving the camp there was some swapping about between the subalterns in the hope of seeing action. I'm wondering whether Massey-Hicks was misremembering something along those lines with his Lea (Clear)?
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:02 pm

There are a couple of linking threads that Im hopefully going to look at tomorrow in the archives. Port Elizabeth/Eastern Cape ties in with the elder Mr and Mrs Clear, the news paper article and Massey-Hicks. The other thread is the repetitive references to the Kimberly/Griquland area. Looking forward to sharing some findings.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:04 pm

Its been an interesting morning in the archives, 3 hours of searching.
I eventually managed to find a reference connecting Thomas to the senior Mr and Mrs Clear. In addition there are two possibilities for the J Clear. James and John.
John is the oldest brother followed by William Patrick Thomas and James. John eventually went on to become a Detective in Kimberly. A further branch of the family settled in Cape Town. Both William and Patrick appear to have settled in the Eastern Cape, John in the Northern Cape and James on the Natal/Eastern Cape Border.
Its also highly possible that John fought on the side of the Boers and after being taken prisoner with a cousin, Fred, was interred at Simonstown.
Its highly possible/probable that there were two Clears fighting the Zulus, Thomas and either John or James. At this stage it remains open to speculation but my money would be on James.

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PostSubject: Isamndlwana Survivors    Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:48 am

Hi Frank
In Terry Sole's work ' For God , Queen & Colony ' it's T. Clear whose name is on the Roll for the NNC , I've gone through all the book and there is also another ' Clear ' Trooper , unfortunately no Initial listed on the Roll for him in Bettington's Horse You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:45 am

Thomas also served in Bettingtons Horse after the NNC was disbanded at RD. BUT there is still to my mind a second Clear involved, Cam I know disagrees. The search continues.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:51 am

90th and Cam
It doesn't really matter what Sole wrote (he can also make mistakes) or any secondary source (including mine).  With anything uncertain or controversial a writer must state his sources.  Otherwise it's just an opinion and the reader is left none the wiser.
I can write Hitler died in his bunker, pistol in hand, fighting to the last.  If I don't back it up with primary sources, it's simply opinion.

I am mindful that the original report on which all this is based says 'Lea (?Clear)' not just 'Clear'.  I wonder whether this actually said 'Lea (unclear)'.  Cam, please have another look because I can't get a copy of this paper in the BL Newspaper Library. If this is the case then we're all barking up the wrong tree.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:34 am

Hi Julian
We cant of course dismiss any possibility but a consideration is that there 'could' be a family business connection on that both families were involved in Gold mining. Massey Hicks and John Clear both registered gold prospecting licences. Indeed the Massey Hicks company on the Witwatersrand became quite a player in the market. The Cape Town branch of the family also got involved with claims registered in the Cold Bokerveld area.
Cam is going to do a family tree search to try and nail down all the members of the clan. Interestingly I cant at this stage find a death certificate for Thomas, when Anne his mother dies all the children and the estates of three deceased where mentioned in the will. But not Thomas, in fact the only mention of Thomas was in his fathers will where he was listed as a descendant. That leads to an assumption that there could have been either a break in the family or the death of Thomas, out of the country, with no spouse or children.

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:08 pm

Hi Julian, it's 'Lea (?Clear)' not unclear, exactly as posted.

From what I've seen; a 'T Clear' is cited in the Natal Papers as being a Lieutenant in the 3rd NNC. The same paper mentions no other Clear, but they could be wrong. Thomas states in the GWBP records that he served with the 3NNC & Bettington's Horse. He cites his parents name as Denis and Anne. So far he's the only Clear that we can find in primary sources to have links with the NNC & Bettington's Horse.

A 'J. Clear' is cited by Harford as being in 1/3NNC so we do have a possible 'J. Clear' on our hands. What we know about the Clears that may fit the profile are:

1. John Clear, elder brother of Thomas was serving with the 3rd CMY at Morosi's stronghold. Whilst many CMY absconded to serve in Zululand; John is on the medal roll and still listed as a member in 1880. (He's also on the 1879 Burgher List for Uitenhage for interest sake).
2. The John Clear that joined the CMR and later the Cape Police cites different parents (John & Jane who were still in Killkenny when he joined up); He still could be the NNC man, but further investigation is required.
3. James Clear, the younger brother was old enough to serve in the NNC. We know he wasn't on the Burgher List and not in the 3rd CMY with John and another brother William. He's a strong candidate.

4. It could be another J Clear that we haven't identified yet.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:44 pm

As an aside the original family name was 'Hell' it was changed in the early 1800s by the original German source to Clear. The American branch of the family is riddled with Johns, as is the Irish and English branches.
There was another John at the time that sided with the Boers and fought against the British, in the photo I saw on Wednesday there was also an F Clear.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:07 pm

It would be worth pulling the Boer War Clears files out. I know of at least one former CMR man (J.H. D'Arcy) having his service feature in the Intelligence Departments file's. You never know your luck in the big city.

I've just been on Ancestry.com but having no luck at all. I'll get back to it tomorrow.

Cam.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:25 am

Hi Cam
I think getting family tree sorted out is going to bring a touch of clarity to very muddy waters. In addition to your list there is the following.
Edmund and Margaret Clear had a son William John in the Cape. He went on to become a Baker based near the military camp in Wynberg and was eventually declared insolvent and charged with fraud.
David Daniel Clery, married to Mary Ann nee Buckley, died in 1880 and in his will bequeathed to Joseph Steven Clear of Natal. David Clear of East London and Daniel Clear of the Diamond Fields.

So another J for the collection.

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:49 am

As we say out here ' It's as Clear as Mud ' No No
90th agree
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:11 am

A lot of 'J,s' to sort out 90th.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:20 am

...and still no nearer solving the original riddle...
I am drawing total blanks at my end. Absolutely no trace of any Clears surviving Isandhlwana mentioned in any sources I can find. A couple more to go though.
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:28 am

Julian is it not possible the wording is taken out of context as to him being an Actual Survivor , it could've meant he was elsewhere , instead of being at the camp , and therefore had a close shave so to speak ? . No doubt to actually place him at Isandlwana , and to have survived , will most certainly require , up to now , an unknown piece of Primary source evidence , would be excellent to come across this said evidence . You need to study mo
90th
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:16 am

90th
Your probably right. My issue is really to try and firstly isolate a J Clear from the many and then try and establish his movements. If that is possible then it will either confirm the current listing of a J Clear as being part of the column OR amend it to T Clear. Or possibly...................both. TGIF
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:32 am

Good Luck to all on this Quest !
90th You need to study mo
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:49 am

90th
From the wording it becomes difficult to put a slant on it to be as inclusive as you suggest.  It IS quite specific - killed - narrow escape.
I do think however we should not ignore the 'Lea' part.  To my mind, looking at it from a telegraphist and newspaper editor's point of view, this has to be made sense of.   Cam has said that the wording is definitely Lea (?Clear).  I suggest that the telegramme said 'Lea' and the newspaper editor, knowing that this could not be right looked among the listings of 1/3 officers and 'assumed' that letters were missing - the only possible one that might fit was C-LEA-R. And so the (?Clear) part was added by the editor and not part of the original telegramme.
I think we are barking up the wrong tree and we should be looking for a man (an NCO?) with the surname Lea/Lee/Leigh or a word which would fit into the sentence and still make sense which may have been misread by the telegraphist.
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:25 pm

Julian
Don't we just love Isandlwana and all it's intricacies ? Shocked Shocked . Here's hoping something crops up .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:52 pm

Hi
Well. (Friday) and (Thursday) have been inserted by the editor so obviously so has (?Clear).
It shows the editor couldn't make sense of 'Lea' and so has queried it. 'Clear' is simply a guess (and therefore possibly an incorrect or inaccurate one) on his part.
The more I look at it, the more convinced I am the answer will be found in the 'Lea'.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:39 pm


I couldn't find a Lea or Lee, but found this chap:

LEIGH Harry Braybrooke. Pay Sergeant, Natal Horse, Anglo-Zulu War 1879. Later servin in the Anglo-Boer War with the Imperial Light Horse (No766). (Age 39 in ABW).

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:54 pm

And so it goes on...
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:15 pm

As we are discussing variations to names, there was this chap who could be Lea as no Lea can be located in the NNC. If only we could see the document the editor was trying to translate.

SKEA John.
Kaffrarian Rangers. Operations 1877-78.
Corporal, Natal Native Contingent.
Corporal, Natal Horse, Anglo-Zulu War 1879.
His SAGS was issued on 12.1.86 after Captain A. Welch 5NNC submitted his entitlement from Bedford, Cape Colony on 1.10.85
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:35 pm

Brilliant Cam! Now that is interesting and just the sort of possibility that might fit the bill! Well done!
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:09 am

Frank, the Clear's that fought with the Boer's were:

1. Frederick Henry Clear (Age 22).
2. John George Clear (Age 26). Later a member of the Leage of Veterans citing his DOB as 6.10.1873.
3. William Thomas Clear (Age 19).

All were from Ficksburg and captured at Fouriesburg 30.7.1900 and sent to Ceylon aboard the 'Mongolian'.

Cam.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:08 am

With those ages, takes them out of contention for the AZW. Amazing how the family names of William, John and Thomas keep recurring.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:14 am

Julian
It seems that all the names mentioned by Massey-Hicks were 'Officer Class', John Skea was an NCO from Bedford. Possible significant?

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:23 am

True, but with so few 1/3rd escapees maybe he just mentioned their names, no matter whether officer or NCO...?   I still think the answer lies with Lea or a misreading of it.  It just seems more likely because the misreading cam from the editor.  Mind you, the misreading could still be for 'Clear'!
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:53 pm

I followed up on Captain Alexander Welsh who submitted Skea's SAGS application and he served with the 2/2NNC and 5NNC. The assumption must be that Skea served under Welsh or was known to Welsh in those units and not our man either.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:37 pm

A good try, nevertheless.
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:34 pm

I have a medal from the 1879 Isandlwana battle with the the following engraved around the edge. Anybody know how I can confirm the name in comparing to a list of survivors ? The engraving reads "232 TPR J.TINLING, FRONT R L HORSE"
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:51 pm

Hi Markus
All I can tell you is that the Frontier Light Horse weren't at Isandlwana , your man Tinling , according to the Roll I have on the Frontier Light Horse , was engaged against Sekukuni and not the Zulus , therefore making it impossible for him to have been at Isandlwana let alone be a survivor , as always happy to be corrected , sorry .
90th You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:29 pm

Thanks for the info. So what was he then awarded the medal for ? Or did many others receive the same medal ?
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors   Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:52 am

Hi Markus
There were about 25,000 SAGS ( Sth African General Service Medals ) issued to participants of the Zulu and Basuto wars from 1877 -78 - 79 . In a nutshell to have the Clasp 1879 you needed to have crossed the Border and gone into Zululand , unless you were at Rorke's Drift , but that's another story , your man Tinling as I said was listed as being engaged against Sekukuni which the same medal is awarded , Tinling in the Forsyth Medal Roll is listed as being entitled to the 1879 Clasp , in another Roll he is down as enlisted on 27 / 8 / 78 & Discharged 31 / 10 / 78 , unfortunately very nearly all the Colonial Records for the Anglo Zulu War were pulped in England in 1915 , in an effort to help war production , what they could possibly have done for the war effort isn't clear to me ! . Hopefully this helps You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:52 am

Markus
To be clear, there is no such thing as an "Isandhlwana medal".
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Thanks a lot 90th. Sounds like you know a lot about this topic. Do you know if this medal would be worth much today ?
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:55 pm

How much did you purchase it for?
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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:39 am

Hi Markus
With Tinling being a member of the FLH and it seems was engaged against Sekukuni , not actually the Zulus , you could well expect upwards of 750 GBP's , more , if those who collect the Colonial Medals are able to find him in records that exist , I have no idea of where these records may ,  or may not even exist Suspect  Sorry .
Cheers 90th Salute
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:50 am

Here's some infoe on the FLH, but no mention of the man in question!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Light_Horse
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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:02 am

FLH were also part of Woods column, they were at Hlobane and Kambule. Werent D'Arcy and O'Tool FLH, VCs at Ulundi.

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:59 am

Yes Frank that's correct , although D'arcy and O'toole were awarded their VC's for their actions at the White Mfolozi River on the 3rd of July , the day before the battle of Ulundi ( 4th July ) but we are talking about the individual being Tpr Tinling 232 Frontier Light Horse , who , in the record , is stated as being engaged against Sekukuni , and not listed as being engaged against the Zulu . These records are located in ' What Happened To A VC ' by Patricia D'arcy .
90th You need to study mo
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS   Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:48 am

Hi Gary
Merely suggesting that as the records are so bad its possible that he was with Woods column. Depends really how accurate that discharge date is, if it is then it would be the second Sekukuni war, if inaccurate could be the third, the 79.
What does tie up is the disbanding of the force in the Transvaal around the 27th October 1878, that would mean that the FLH detachment was sent home around the end of the month. The question then would be did they get a medal award for taking part in an advancing column without actually seeing active service? Second point would be of course is there a bar to the medal? Third point was that the FLH were more or less immediately reconstituted for the Zulu war build up. Its an interesting trail.

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