| ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS | |
|
+39xhosa2000 John Young SRB1965 steve.333 Chard1879 Markus135 waterloo50 cam simpson rusteze ymob Taff price Younghusband Ulundi impi 24th Drummer Boy 14 tasker224 dhragonheart Julian Whybra kwajimu1879 trooper rai Frank Allewell horsefixer Suem Chelmsfordthescapegoat old historian2 Dave littlehand SirDCC izabel LadyCat Mr Greaves ADMIN garywilson1 90th 1879graves John joe 43 posters |
|
Author | Message |
---|
impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:07 pm | |
| Well if his brother was 9-10, if would be safe to say it was hs brother-in law. |
|
| |
Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:42 pm | |
| |
|
| |
Ulundi
Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:25 pm | |
|
The British/Colonial forces suffered 1,300 deaths. There were 78 fugitives who escaped the carnage at Isandhlwana and survived: Durnford's no.2 Column Lieutenant W F D Cochrane, 32nd Regiment (staff) Mr Hamer (civilian transport officer) Rocket Battery, 4 men - Bombardier G Gough RA, Privates H Grant (1/24th), W Johnson (1/24th), J Trainer (1/24th) Captain W Barton NNH Lieutenant Charles Raw NNH Lieutenant V Vause NNH Lieutenant A Henderson NNH Lieutenant H D Davies NNH Captain C Nourse NNC Captain W H Stafford NNC Captain D M Smythe NNC Lieutenant W Erskine NNC
Colonel Glyn's no.3 Column Captain E Essex, 75th Regiment (staff) Captain A C Gardner, 14th Hussars (staff) Lieutenant L H Smith-Dorrien, 95th Regiment (transport) Mr J A Brickhill (civilian interpreter) Lieutenant H T Curling RA 9 men of N Battery, 5th Brigade RA Bandsman Bickley, 1/24th Bandsman Wilson, 1/24th 11 men of no.1 Sqn Mounted Infantry - Sergeant P Naughton (2/3rd), Corporal J McCan (1/24th), Privates E Evans (2/3rd), J Edwards (2/3rd), J Gascoigne (2/3rd), D Whelan (1/13th), S Wassall (80th), T Westwood (80th), H Davis (1/24th), W Parry (1/24th), J Power (1/24th) Natal Mounted Police, 9 men - Trumpeter Stevens, Troopers Sparks, Hayes, Collier, Kincaid, Eaton, Shannon, Doig, Dorhill Natal Carbineers, 7 men - Troopers Muirhead, Fletcher, Edwards, Barker, Grainger, Tarboton, Sidthorpe Newcastle Mounted Rifles, 7 men - Trumpeter Horne, TroopersBurne, Moodie, Walsh, Brown, Berning, Parsons Buffalo Border Guard, QM McPhail and 4 men - Troopers Lennox, Adams, Adams, Stretch Lieutenant J Adendorff NNC Lieutenant W R C Higginson NNC Lieutenant T Vaines NNC Sergeant-Major Williams NNC and 2 NCOs Lieutenant G F Andrews, Natal Native Pioneers Conductor Foley
|
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:40 am | |
| 87 mule driver Hans Boer waggon conductors R J Hall, L Hall, Berling, Homan, Parsons and Street you omitted 1 additional R.A. OR (10 in total) Serg-Maj Sharp NNC |
|
| |
Younghusband
Posts : 60 Join date : 2010-08-17 Location : Southampton
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:01 pm | |
| Thanks for the list Ulundi - have not before seen a list compiled before.
Did any survivors escape 'on foot' - I was always under the impression that nobody escaped unless they were horsed
A follow up question I suppose, if any of the survivors who escaped would not normally have been issued with a horse were there any that came under scrutiny for having taken a horse? (appreciate that in the confusion there were likely to be horses milling around) |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:55 pm | |
| No-one escaped on foot. One survivor said that one man escaped on foot but he's never been identified. No-one came under the scrutiny you mention. I don't normally blow my own trumpet but I suggest you look at England's Sons for the details of the 87 and for the 4 possible European survivors as well as the African survivors' details. |
|
| |
Dave
Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:58 pm | |
| Didn't Smith-Dorrient make good his escape partly on horse and foot! |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:37 pm | |
| Dave , as Julian mentioned no -one escaped by foot , you'll find that once some of the survivors crossed the river including Smith - Dorrien ( No t ) , that , they , did manage to complete their flight on foot , but only once they were on the Natal side of the river . 90th |
|
| |
Taff price
Posts : 37 Join date : 2015-02-14 Age : 49 Location : cardiff
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:58 pm | |
| Smith-Dorrien made it to the Buffalo River on horse. He crossed to the other side and found an injured soldier, who he picked up and put on his horse. The soldier galloped off leaving Smith-Dorrien to make the rest of his escape to Helpmaker on foot. He was chased by about 20 Zulu's which he managed to fend off with his revolver and 11 rounds that Bromhead lent him that morning. He came under scrutiny for leaving his men in the midst of the battle, but some years later he was awarded the (I think) V.C for attempting to help a soldier and saving the life of another. |
|
| |
littlehand
Posts : 7076 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 55 Location : Down South.
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:33 pm | |
| Hi Taff, welcome to the forum.
That's correct, he did help a trooper, it is said that Smith-Dorrien ran non-stop for about 20miles, out running many Zulu, albeit he had a revolver to help keep them at bay. As far as the VC, he was never awarded one. He became more famous in WW1 for disobaying orders. Ironic that! |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:28 pm | |
| Taff Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle. He didn't have any men to leave!!
All One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite. |
|
| |
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:38 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- Taff
Smith-Dorrien did not come under scrutiny for leaving his men in the battle. He didn't have any men to leave!!
All One of the possible survivors in England's Sons is now identified as definite. Bonsoir Mister Whybra, Can you give us his name? (Chermside? Gooding? / Raymond? / Hallaghan?) Cheers Frédéric |
|
| |
rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:48 pm | |
| Keep them guessing Julian. I only say that because I know the answer, having recently acquired a copy of England's Sons with an addendum!
Steve |
|
| |
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:26 pm | |
| Steve, Give me the name and i tell you the source for FROWEN. Cheers |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:28 am | |
| Gooding (acknowledgement to Rai England) |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:54 am | |
| Well done Julian & Rai , good work . 90th |
|
| |
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:17 am | |
| - 90th wrote:
- Well done Julian & Rai , good work .
90th Thank you Mister Whybra/ Cheers |
|
| |
Taff price
Posts : 37 Join date : 2015-02-14 Age : 49 Location : cardiff
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:20 pm | |
| Hi Littlehand /Julian Yes, Thanks! I stand corrected. Because of his conduct in trying to help other soldiers during his dramatic escape from the battlefield, he was nominated for a Victoria Cross, but, as the nomination did not go through the proper channels, he never received it. Which is a shame, he deserved one. |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:04 pm | |
| |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:50 am | |
| |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:53 am | |
| Hi Taff Horace Smith - Dorrien basically went over his superiors head to go to South Africa , as his superior wouldnt release him , Horace went higher , and subsequently gained approval . The paperwork for Horace's VC went through the wrong channels if memory serves me correctly , Horace , I think , wasnt impressed , but , as he said in his book ( ? ) 50 years or so after the AZW , he saw many , many more actions in WW1 worthy of a VC rather than his own effort in 1879 . I dont have the book but the wording is similar , I think it's mentioned in his book , or , possibly him being quoted later in life . Cheers 90th |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Suvivors Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:01 am | |
| Possibly Recommended ? . 90th |
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:50 pm | |
| Has anyone seen a reference to Thomas Clear (Lt 1/3NNC) escaping Isandlwana as I found him mentioned in the correspondence of George Massey-Hicks wrote:
‘Eastern Province Herald’: 7.2.79 (Friday); At midnight (Thursday) the following telegram, addressed to his brother, was received from Capt. Geo R. Massey-Hicks, 1-3rd Regt of the Natal Native Contingent:-“Pietermaritzburg, Jan 30, 8.10pm – Myself and W Hicks are well, with thirty-eight officers from the Cape. Officers killed: Krohn, Lonsdale, Erskine, McCormack, Avery, Jameson, Chambers, Young, Murray and Pritchard. Narrow escapes: Vaines, Higginson, Ardendorff, and Clear. Will write next mail”.
Thomas Clear for info was born in Ireland in 1853 and served with the FAMP between 1870-73. He was also in the Kaffriarian Rifles during the Ninth Frontier War. After the AZW he served with the Griqualand West Border Police.
Cam. |
|
| |
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:17 pm | |
| Bonjour, I don'd find his name in the list of European survivors and possible European survivors in "England's sons: a casualty and survivors roll of British Combatants for the battle of Isandhlwana and the defense of Rorke's Drift" by Mr Julian Whybra. Cheers Frédéric |
|
| |
waterloo50
Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:33 pm | |
| I think that it is 'Recommended for' and then 'awarded' the VC, when you have been awarded the VC you are then referred to as the 'Recipient'. |
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:26 am | |
| Cam All I can offer is that Lt T. Clear is on the Roll in Terry Sole's book ' For God , Queen & Colony ' other than his name that's all that is in the book . I'll check again later I've got to go out for a while . 90th |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:50 am | |
| Very interesting. Not seen that before. He does get his precise figure very wrong for the total as well. In my listings he's certainly out with Chelmsford. There's also no corroboration from another source for Clear's having been at the camp and the opposite is true (others giving officers escaped name only Vaines, Adendorff and Higginson). For the moment he has to go down as a possible survivor until a second confirmatory can be found. Well done!
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:25 am | |
| Couple of errors in that list from memory. Erskine comes straight to mind. I don't have Clear at Helpmakaar either, Nourse, Smythe and Stafford yes. For some reason, no idea why, I seem to recall him as J Clear?
Cheers |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:40 am | |
| Frank No, Capt. Charles A. Erskine (o/c no. 4 coy) was killed. You're confusing him with Wallace Erskine. 42 officers from that unit were with Chelmsford. I also have the initial as J. for Lieut. Clear although I note that the 'Thomas' does not come from Massey-Hicks. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:53 am | |
| Ah yes, sorry all from memory at present, out of town on safari. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:58 am | |
| Cam DEPOT KAB SOURCE AG TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1626 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 6386 PART 2 DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. APPOINTED AS SUB-INSPECTOR. KIMBERLEY. STARTING 1906 ENDING 1906
Document 2 of 5 DEPOT KAB SOURCE AG TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1703 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 4908 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. ANNUAL REPORT ON. KIMBERLEY. STARTING 1906 ENDING 1906 REMARKS REPORT INCLUDED.
Document 3 of 5 DEPOT KAB SOURCE AG TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1789 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 12416 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J AND DE KOCK, AN. SERGEANTS. TRANSFER OF. KIMBERLEY. STARTING 1907 ENDING 1907
Document 4 of 5 DEPOT KAB SOURCE AG TYPE LEER VOLUME_NO 1807 SYSTEM 01 REFERENCE 13978 PART 1 DESCRIPTION CLEAR, J. DISCHARGE AND PENSION. KIMBERLEY. STARTING 1908 ENDING 1909
|
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:06 am | |
| Looks like J then! That's what I've got from NNC lists. I really think this can only be a possible at the moment (and an unlikely one at that) given the contemporary lists that specifically mention the escapees and those out with LC. But then, who knows what has still to turn up? The question in my mind is why would Massey-Hicks bother to mention him? He couldn't have confused him with another officer because there was no other escaped officer to confuse him with. Could he have confused him with an escaped anonymous N.C.O. perhaps? |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:29 am | |
| Last one then Im off chasing Elephants
Document 17 of 26 DEPOT KAB SOURCE AG Collection TYPE Photo REFERENCE AG8635 DESCRIPTION Anglo-Boer War. Group of Boer prisoners, Tent F, Bellevue Camp, Simonstown. Back row from left to right: Schalk M, Koot M, F Clear, J Wille, J Clear and F Wille. Second row from left to right: John, Japie M, Henry and Sybrand. Front row from left to right: W Tylor, T Tyler, W Wille and W Clear. STARTING 0000 ENDING 0000
|
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:31 am | |
| The Kimberly connection fits with the Griquland West reference. |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:44 am | |
| Cam Simpson You said you found this remark in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks. Can you tell me whether this is a printed version or is it the original hand-written docs? I'm trying to exclude the possibility of a mistranscription. If it's a published book can you give me the source so I can check the original please? Thanks.
|
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:25 pm | |
| It does look like a 'J'. I believe I extracted the 'Thomas' from the Griqualand Police Records which I'll re-check.
Julian, it was a very small newspaper article and of course could have been miss-trancribed from the original letter.
Cam. |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:32 pm | |
| Cam Simpson Thanks. Just to be clear...you're saying it was not in the correspondence of Massey-Hicks, you actually saw a newspaper article in which this appeared. Can you tell me the newspaper, its date (soon after 7.2.79 I imagine) and if possible the page number. S. African newspapers would often re-print each others' stories. This might be a re-print of something that appeared in the Eastern Province Herald that was taken from a telegram so the possibility for a mistranscription to creep in is there. I'd like to track down the original source and check it. Thank you in advance. |
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:57 pm | |
| Looking at my Griqualand West Border Police notes right now:
CLEAR Thomas. (Beyond a doubt). Attested 9.12.81 Constable, GWBP (No13) Age 30. Previous Service: 2 years, 5 Months, FAMP 1870-72. Kaffrarian Rangers, Gaekeka War 1878. 'in Lonsdales Contingent and Bettington's Horse in Zulu War 1879'. Discharged (Reduction of the Force) 30.8.86.
Father: Denis Clear. Mother Anne Clear.
Its a possibility he changed his name, but in saying that they needed to provide testimonials and discharge papers.
Cam.
|
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:02 pm | |
| Yes, I read it in the 'Eastern Province Herald' for 7.2.79 and looks like it was the first paper to print it. I've yet to see it in another but in saying that it was very small and I was lucky to notice it.
Cam. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:09 pm | |
| There is at least one brother. |
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:11 pm | |
| There were two J. Clears in the Police in Kimberley:
CLEAR John. Born Dublin, Ireland 15.8.1858. Enlisted 1.8.81. Detective, Kimberley. Detective Enlisted CMR 2.8.81. Sergeant 1.3.01. Transferred to Detective Departmemt 9.8.01. Sub-Inspector c1909.
CLEAR John. Kilkenny, Ireland. Enlisted 1.10.84 (Age 25). Constable, District No2, Cape Police (No120). Transferred to the Diamond Detective Department 1.5.97.
I'm yet to find a Thomas or J Clear in the Kaffrarian's or the FAMP….more questions that answers in this chap.
|
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:13 pm | |
| Julian, I'll be back in amongst the newspapers next week and will re-visit the EPH.
Cam. |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:16 pm | |
| |
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:50 pm | |
| Not that I can see Frank.
I noticed that Terry Sole has him listed as 'T. Clear' also. When I get time, I'll dig into ancestry.com to pin the family down.
|
|
| |
rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:05 pm | |
| A couple of extracts from the original medal rolls. Clear (no initial) Bettington's Horse. Clear William and Clear John, A Troop 3rd Cape Mounted Yeomanry. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Steve |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 2:55 pm | |
| Strange, there is a William John Clear, declared insolvent in 1900 and a lunatic a few years later. Im also picking up mention of an Edmond Clery |
|
| |
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3950 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:06 pm | |
| Let me pose a possible solution to this conundrum.
I don’t mean to be long-winded but let me explain my reasoning.
All the evidence states that Lieut. J. Clear was out on the Mangeni Reconnaissance.
Yet we have a captain in the 1/3rd NNC making a clear statement (no pun intended) that ‘Clear’ was a survivor.
Both can’t be true. Or can they?
We know that there was a John Clear, a Thomas Clear (that was in “Lonsdale’s Force”), and even an F. Clear. A possible family of Clears. Not unusual to have several of them in one unit. Like the Scotts or the Symons or the Tarbotons.
Massey-Hicks gives two lists: Officers Killed and Narrow Escapes. Lieut. J. Clear was one of 43 N.N.C. officers not 40 (38 plus Hicks and Massey-Hicks). Massey-Hicks’s list of Officers Killed omits Holcroft, Bruce (often mistranscribed as Buée) and Grant (all 1/3rd) and Gibson, Rivers and Vereker (all 2/3rd); the Narrow Escapes misspells Adendorff. Ergo Massey-Hicks made mistakes and omissions.
We know that there were two 1/3rd NCOs who escaped Isandhlwana and whose names we don’t know (they are nos. M76 and 77 in England’s Sons). How about if Massey-Hicks is not referring to Lieut. J. Clear but to a Sergt. or Corp. T(homas) Clear? That way the Lieut. J. Clear can be on the Mangeni and the NCO T. Clear can be at Isandhlwana.
I suggest Terry Sole has confused the matter by stating in his book that Lieut. T. Clear was a survivor. I think he has ‘assumed’ that the Clear referred to by Massey-Hicks was the same man as Lieut. J. Clear.
It’s a thought and I could be wrong but it might explain the discrepancy. Thoughts?
The proof would lie in a complete list of NCOs in the 1/3rd NNC. Any takers? |
|
| |
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:22 pm | |
| Ah yes, how many pipes (cups of tea) was that solution worth? Soon as Im back in town I will meet up with Cam for coffee and compare notes but in the mean time its an early game drive so time for a glass of something and sleep.
Cheers PS I believe that a solution could lay in the archives and the references to J Clear Diamond Detective. |
|
| |
cam simpson
Posts : 90 Join date : 2014-10-10
| Subject: Re: ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:39 pm | |
| Julian, that all makes sense. I've got some more notes on the two John Clear's that were in Kimberley in the 1880's so I'll try and get these together over the weekend.
Frank, I believe your right about the files in the achieves. Lieutenant's Festing and Garde of the NNC both later became Constables and had very detailed pension files.
See you when your back in town.
Cam.
|
|
| |
90th
Posts : 10881 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:05 am | |
| Hi All Is it possible Massey - Hicks just mentioned or meant T.Clear as being a survivor of the '' DAY '' , and not necessarily meaning the actual battle at Isandlwana , possibly because of to whom he was writing , knew T. Clear personally ? . Hope this made sense ? . 90th |
|
| |
| ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS | |
|