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 They should have waited. Conditions were not right.

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impi

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PostSubject: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:58 pm

Did the British not realise before they invaded Zululand that the terrain & element conditions would not be in their favour. The rivers were high and fast flowing making crossings near on impossible. The roads were turned to mud by the torrential rain.

The conditions for the men were appalling. There are accounts of men falling asleep and waking up in puddles. Most of them wore damp and sodden clothes for days on end. If they had waited for better conditions surly they would have been able to move faster, the men would have been better equipped and healthier. And the Zulu would have been busy trying to harvest their crops to repel the British the way they did.

Why did it take Chelmsford column so long to get from R.D to Isandlwana?

There is much talk of the Boers explaining the ways of the Zulu to the British. They should have advice them on when the conditions were right to invade. Does anyone know why the British chose to invade when they did? And what would the consequences had been if they had not.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:00 am

Good post Impi. Should be an Interesting disussion.
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90th

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PostSubject: conditions were not right.   Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:33 am

Hi Impi .
Believe it or not the good Lord Chelmsford thought he got the timing right , and it isnt hard to agree with him !. If they
delayed the advance till the sth African winter June , July , August . The weather may have been good with sunny days
and little rain , but the grass would be dry and of little value therefore the grazing animals would be stopped in their tracks . Also the
zulus could have lit grass fires ,basically using the scorched earth policy . An impossibility for the columns to advance . The negatives
for when he did advance in Jan were hot days and heavy rain , but at least there would be plenty of foliage to supply the animals
required to move the column and no chance of facing the scorched earth policy. Also there had been a drought for 10 yrs or so ,
and Chelmsford was hoping he may miss the worst of the rains . Also harvest time is , I think about January , this would have been a
vital time for the zulus who couldnt afford to be away for to long , and C'ford wanted a quick decisive action this was a way to get it .
Also Frere was told by the British Govt that a war with zululand was more than likely imminent , but certainly not at this time , as
the Govt were worried about the Russians and thought Afghanistan the primary focus with weapons , troops and expenditure .
Frere and Chelmsford launched their invasion without the consent and backing of the Home Govt , Both looking for a knockout
blow which did arrive but not in a way imaginable to either of them . Hope this helps .
cheers 90th.

ps. Forgot to add the commanders and the govt never let adverse weather conditions or hardships play a factor in wartime .
which is fairly evident by the lack of tents during the campaign in zululand , Just need to look at the thousands who died of
disease and other fully preventable procedures which took place in the Crimea , a mere 25 yrs earlier . Suspect .
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:49 am

The 1st attempt wasn’t successful

March 1879 the second phase of the war began

Final invasion of Zululand (May to July 1879) At which time Cetshwayo asking for terms of surrender.
Maybe Cetshwayo knew he had a good chance of beating the British in January but not so sure as the conditions improved. Plus it was moving fast to the harvest season.
So maybe the delay was a blessing in disguise.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:36 pm

There are a few members on this forum who have been to the Battlefields and in some cases retraced the route taken during the invasion. Neil as attended Rorkes Drift, many times and normally in January. It would be interesting to know what time of the year they would have suggested to invade.

I would have thought preferably when the rivers were low. The 1st Incident that comes to mind is the Ntombe River massacre where the British were separated due to high rivers.
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Saul David 1879



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:50 pm

Conditions are never right for war.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:40 pm

Hi. Thanks for all the replies.90th very informative. I would be interested in what those that have been to South Africa have to say about the conditions at various times of the year.

This from Mr Neil Aspinshaw. Taken from the Zulu Trip Discussion.

“After the Manzimyama the trail is difficult enough on foot, never mind a bike, the first ascent in now rock to rock, and the overhead bush now means you spend most of the time stooping. The swampy area is impossible on a bike, and the final descent to the river a steep scramble. If the Buffalo is athing like Jan, running three feet up and like a train, erm, I'll stick to the Kyack from FDL.”


“If the Buffalo is athing like Jan, running three feet up and like a train” Did they really have to put up with this, far to risky if you ask me. And I do believe Troops did drowned why attempting to cross.

At what time of the year, doe’s the water recede, when it becomes east to cross.

Once again Thanks for the replies.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:51 pm

Not sure it was the wrong conditions, they seem to have made head way with these. I do believe this regiment was the first to reach Isandlwana, 3-4 Hours ahead of Chelmsford.

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:00 pm

Ok. Thanks for that Littlehand. This is new to me. I was totally unaware of this.

What was the name of this regiment and who was in command? The Zulu’s must have been flabbergasted, when they saw a regiment of British troops making their way towards them on bicycle's.

I take it this regiment didn’t stay for the Battle, because I don’t recall any mention of a bicycle regiment being at Isandlwana. Did they leave with Chelmsford column?
I’m going to surf the web to see if I can find any information on this particular regiment.

Thanks again for the information.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:13 pm

Hi Impi. They were originally know as the penny-farthing company, Founded in 1872. They only played a small part in the Zulu war at the early stages. The officer in command of this regiment was Capt: Wheelturner. The reason for there demise at the early stages of the Zulu war, was that the Zulu’s had worked out, if they threw their spears at the wheels the spear would get stuck in the spokes, unseating the rider. I do believe the same company took part in the first Boer war, when they faired better, as the Boers only had rifles.
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Saul David 1879



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Quote :
Founded in 1872.
It was 1874.

S.D
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:37 am

is it April fools day ? Capt Wheelturner of the bicycle company ? :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:48 am

Hi. Came across this artical

"Born in 1846, Capt Robert Wheelturner, of the Royal bicycle company. He entered the Army in 1863, and served in the Jowaki Expedition in 1877, as Superintendent of Army cycling proficiency testing (despatches, medal with clasp), the Afghan War in 1875-9, as Superintendent of Field Telegram mounted bicycle units, and in charge of Army field despatches with the Kurum Valley cycle club, at the capture of the Peiwar Kotal, also present at the actions in the Mungiar Pass and Matun Khost (despatches, medal with clasp and brevet of Major); Took part at the early stages of the Zulu War 1879-79 Was the first officer of the British army to arrive at Isandlwana arriving two hours ahead of the main colum. the Boer War in 1881, with the Natal Field Force as DAA and QMG for cycling; and the Sudan Expedition in 1884-5, employed on the Lines of Communication cycling between out-posts ( despatches, medal with clasp, bronze star and brevet of Lieutenant Colonel). From 1886-1891 he acted at DAAG at the Army Headquarters; acted as AAG for the Curragh District from 1891-4; was DAG at Malta from 1894-8, and at Aldershot from 1895-9. He served in the Boer War in 1899-1901, on the staff, including service as Chief of Staff in South Africa (afterwards in Natal), and in command of the 11th cycle Brigade at Standerton; lost his first bicycle at the relief of Ladysmith, (Believe to have been stolen) (Just out of interest. This was the first report of a bicycle being stolen) and the actions at Spion Kop and Vaal Kranz, and the operations on Tugela Heights; the operations in Natal, including the action at Laing's Nek, and the operations in the Transvaal and Cape Colony (despatches, QSA with seven clasps; promoted Major General for distinguished service)"

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:36 am

You couldn't have made it up !
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:03 pm

Littlehand, CTHSG, SD. I take it that was my initiation to the forum. Well done. :lol!: :lol!: Idea

But seriously if some can give an overview on the climate changes throughout the year in ZuluLand. Would be appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:04 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Hi Impi! Wellcome to the forum and good reply!!!!
Having lived and farmed in Northern Natal for the past 25 years I can say that no season is the same. Later in the year March to April certainly would have been better from a climatic point of view, but sporadic floods still occur, eg 12 March 1879, when the Entombe River was in flood and it had been raining for days. Later in the winter it gets extremely cold especially the higher lying areas and the natural vegetation, mostly tall grassveld loses its nutritional value once the seeds have been formed and by March really is not worth much. As has been netioned in other replies, the danger of veld fires is always a worry especially as soon as the first frost has taken its toll. Cattle diseases are more frequent in summer, particularly the tick-borne diseases like Redwater, Heartwater and Gall-sickness and African Horse-sickness certainly played havock in the early months of the Zulu War!
I suppose if all had gone according to plan the time of year should really not have played such a major role, since it should have been over by tea-time!!!The fact that the Zulus traditionally would have their first-fruit festival in about January could have been used to the British advantage.
More than anything else, however I think it was personal gain and fame that decided the timing of the start of the Zulu War!!!

Cheers for now!!
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:01 pm

Hi johann.
Quote :
"Gall-sickness and African Horse-sickness certainly played havock in the early months of the Zulu War!"
Could you tell us more about these diseases, and is it a problem to day.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 pm

Impi. You played that like a real gent. Welcome to the forum.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:49 pm

Dont worry, Its happened to all of us!

Welcome to the forum! Idea

Joe
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:11 pm

Thanks Joe. That makes me feel better :lol!:

johann. Thanks for giving a good overview of what they were up against.

But am I right in thinking now, no matter what time of the year they still would have encounter the same problems. I was thinking logistically, with the amount of equipment need for their undertaking. It would have been better to travel when the waters were low and rains decreased. Time was needed for the R.E's to construct pontoons ECT. Delaying the movement forward. I know they completed what they had started out to do, but I think it could have been made easier with a bit of thought, before hand.

Quote :
“I suppose if all had gone according to plan the time of year should really not have played such a major role, since it should have been over by tea-time!!!
Typical British thinking at that time.

Quote :
“however I think it was personal gain and fame that decided the timing of the start of the Zulu War!!!”
I would agreed with you on this 100%
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:28 pm

CTSG. This from "Campaigns of a war correspondent" By Melton Prior.


"Mr. Fripp, the artist of the Graphic, was less fortunate than myself, for he lost one and never recovered it. Our animals were a terrible trouble to us in this way, because of those horrible ticks, while I lost one of my best horses with that vile sickness called Red Water. He had been ill for two days, when I found him lying on the ground apparently in awful agony. The veterinary surgeon assured me he could not live, and the officers begged me to shoot him and put him out of his misery.

I went to my tent to fetch my revolver to do so, when some one called out to me, " Never mind, Prior, the poor brute is dead." He must have suffered terribly, for he had pulled up the ground with his teeth and feet, and his mouth was full of earth. I was awfully sorry, for he was my best horse; but oxen as well as horses were dying all round."



Johann. I to would be interested in what this disease actually doe's to make an animal die in such a manner.

As a farmer of 25 years have you experienced this first hand? And from a Zulu point of view back in 1879, was the meat of the animal still enable after death from Red water sickness.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:55 pm

Interesting Post.

What I would like to know. Doe’s Red Water sickness just affect animals or can it be passed on to humans. Was there a cure for it, back in 1879.
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johann engelbrecht



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:37 am

Hi all! Did not think I would ever reply on veterinary matters on this forum... just goes to show how wide and interesting this little war is!!!
Red Water as far as I know does not affect horses, so the old vet had it wrong! That horse of Prior most probably died of Horse-sickness, which is a disease transmitted by gnats or biting flies and is most prevalent in summer and in low lying wet areas. Red water and gallsickness are cattle diseases transmitted by the blue tick and the parisites causing the conditions onlyaffect cattle. Heart water is transmitted by the bont tick and it affects sheep, goats and cattle. None of these diseases are transmitted to humans, there is however a brown tick that transmits tick-bite fever to humans and I have suffered from that. Severe headache, high temperature... goes over after 3 days.
Horse sickness can take several forms sometimes causing swelling of the head all depends on what strain of the virus is involved. The virus multiplies in the blood and damages the blood vessels, causing the lymph to flow out of the vessels resulting in swelling of the tissues. Even today no effective medication for horse sickness is available and is best prevented by vaccination and keeping horses away from affected areas.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:55 am

As anyone seen accounts of the British Horse's suffering with horse sickness during the Zulu War. I know there were vets in place during this time.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:39 am

Impi
The timing was a political decision made by Frere. He needed to have the war over and done with before being stopped by the British Government.
Because of the time taken for messages to travel back and forth, he had informed England that he would invade knowing full well it was against policy, he therefore had to invade and beat the Zulu before orders to the contrary were sent to him.
As we all know that didnt happen.
With travel in Zululand you take your choice, January the rivers were high, flash floods the norm. But forage was available so less supplies were needed for the enormous quantity of live stock. Later in the year the rivers could be lower, but so was available forage.
Dont forget that Neil was describing the Buffalo as being 3 foot higher and going like an express train. The main column crossed this river at RD, it was the fugitives that suffered at Fugitives Drift. There, apart from the the water volume and speed, is a large flood plain. This would have been covered in January making the river a lot wider, possibly a 100metres or more. In a post a few weeks ago I posted a photo of my son standing on this plain and a shot from further up the hill looking downwards. Those will give you a good idea of the waters extent.
The main force effected by the rivers was the coastal column, they had to cross some really large obstacles, including the Tugela.
Seem to recall they were christened Crealocks crawlers because of the slow progress.
A lot of farms in the area were infected with either foot and mouth or horse sickness. SD in his memoires comments on a farm he was ordered to buy that he found to be infected, I believe he refused.
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PostSubject: Horse names   Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:58 pm

Talking of horses: who knows whose horse was called "War Games""? And "Warrior"? and " Garibaldi"?
/
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:48 pm

Mossop's Horse was "Warrior"
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:38 pm

That is the easy one!!! Whose horse was called "TommY" How about the others?
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:06 pm

African horse sickness (AHS) is an acute or subacute, insectborne, viral disease of Equidae that is endemic to Africa. It is characterized by clinical signs and lesions associated with respiratory and circulatory impairment.
Etiology and Epidemiology:

AHS is caused by an orbivirus, 55-70 nm in diameter, of the family Reoviridae. There are 9 immunologically distinct types. Extracts of mouse brain infected with AHS virus hemagglutinate horse RBC. The virus is inactivated at a pH of <6 or ≥12, or by formalin, β-propiolactone, acetylethyleneimine derivatives, or radiation.
Appearance of AHS is preceded by seasons of heavy rain that alternate with hot and dry climatic conditions. Outbreaks in central and east Africa have extended to Egypt, the Middle East, and southern Arabia. In 1950-1960, a major epidemic extended from India to the Near Eastern countries; an estimated 300,000 Equidae were destroyed. A second epidemic in 1966 occurred in northeast Africa and southern Spain. In 1987, the disease entered Spain via imported zebra from Namibia. These 2 outbreaks in Spain were controlled, but another occurred in 1988, and sporadic cases occurred through early 1989. Recent AHS outbreaks (through 2001) have been reported only in Botswana and Namibia. In Botswana there were fewer cases in 2000 than in 1999. The disease was reported in horses and donkeys in the western regions. In 2001, 11 outbreaks were reported in Botswana. Two outbreaks were reported in Namibia in 2000, and 7 outbreaks in 2001. In a survey in Egypt, antibodies to AHS virus were detected in sheep, goats, camels, buffalo, and dogs.

Transmission:
Culicoides spp are the principal vectors of transmission. AHS is seen during warm, rainy, seasons, which favor propagation of the vectors, and disappears after frost. The virus was isolated from blood of clinically healthy street dogs, the dog tick Rhipicephalus sanguineus sanguineus , and the camel tick Hyalomma dromedarii during winter in the Aswan region of southern Egypt where the disease is endemic. AHS has been experimentally transmitted by infected mosquitos. Limited studies in Egypt using dogs that had recovered from experimental infection revealed that 3 successive daily attacks by groups of Culex pipiens activated latent AHS virus and initiated viremia and fever. It has been suggested that the virus may overwinter in dogs with persistent infection. However, the full role of arthropods in transmission of the disease is unclear.

Clinical Findings and Lesions:

African horse sickness, swelling of supraorbital fossa


Mortality depends on virulence of the viral strain and susceptibility of the host. It may reach 90% in epidemics. The acute respiratory form is characterized by an incubation period of 3-5 days, interlobular edema, and hydropericardium; death occurs in ~1 wk. A fever of 40-40.5°C (104-105°F) for 1-2 days is followed by dyspnea, spasmodic coughing, and dilated nostrils; the animal stands with its legs apart and head extended. The conjunctiva is congested and the supraorbital fossa may be swollen. Recovery is rare, and the animal dies of anoxia. At necropsy, pulmonary edema is especially visible in the intralobular spaces. The lungs are distended and heavy, and frothy fluid may be found in the trachea, bronchi, and bronchioles. There may be pleural effusion. Thoracic lymph nodes may be edematous, and the gastric fundus may be congested. Petechiae are found in the pericardium, and there is an increase in pericardial fluid; however, cardiac lesions usually are not outstanding. The abdominal viscera may be congested. A frothy exudate may ooze from the nostrils. The pulmonary form is the usual form in dogs.
The cardiac form is subacute with an incubation period of 1-2 wk. A fever of <1 wk is followed by swelling of the supraorbital fossa, which is pathognomonic. Swelling usually extends to the eyelids, facial tissues, neck, thorax, brisket, and shoulders. Death usually occurs within 1 wk and may be preceded by colic. The mortality rate is ~50%. Petechiae and ecchymoses on the epicardium and endocardium are prominent. The lungs are usually flaccid or slightly edematous. There are yellow, gelatinous infiltrations of the subcutaneous and intramuscular tissues, especially along the jugular veins and ligamentum nuchae. Other lesions include hydropericardium, myocarditis, hemorrhagic gastritis, and petechiae on the ventral surface of the tongue and peritoneum. A mixed pulmonary and cardiac form is usually found in outbreaks, with signs and lesions of one type predominating.

Diagnosis:
In endemic areas, clinical signs and lesions may lead to a provisional diagnosis. However, laboratory confirmation is essential for definitive diagnosis and determination of the serotype; the latter is important for control measures. Blood specimens should be obtained at the peak of fever, preserved in OCG solution (50% glycerol, 0.5% potassium oxalate, 0.5% phenol), and transported (at 4°C) to the laboratory. Spleen samples collected from freshly dead animals should be preserved in 10% buffered glycerin. For virus isolation, infant mice or cell cultures are used. Infected mice may develop nervous and paralytic signs and should be observed for 3 wk. To obtain a high-titered antigen from mouse brains for the complement fixation test, 2 or 3 passages may be necessary. Brains from paralyzed mice only are harvested for antigen preparation. The complement fixation test is useful for disease diagnosis; virus neutralization and/or hemagglutination-inhibition tests are used for serotyping.

Prevention and Control:
Surviving Equidae develop solid immunity to the homologous serotype but remain susceptible to other serotypes. There are vaccines for all 9 serotypes. These are either cell-culture adapted or mouse-brain attenuated and provide long-lasting protection. Inactivated vaccines are available; 2 doses are required to provide adequate immunity. These vaccines induce local reaction at the site of inoculation and a short protection period.
When the disease first appears in an area, affected horses should be eliminated immediately, and noninfected Equidae should be vaccinated with polyvalent vaccine and rested for 2 wk. When the virus isolate has been typed, animals that received polyvalent vaccine should be revaccinated with the homologous vaccine. Vector control is also initiated by using insecticides and repellents. Vaccinated horses should be kept in insect-proof housing because vaccine failure may occur. Aircraft flying from endemic areas to countries free of the disease should be sprayed with insecticides on arrival. In the USA, equids from African countries are quarantined for 2 mo and then tested for the virus. Presence of antibodies does not interfere with importation of Equidae into countries free of the disease

Well that's easy enough to understand.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:11 pm

What about this (Lung Sickenss)

"South Africa also had its own particular hazard, a mysterious 'lung sickness' that could kill horses in a matter of hours. The solution was partly to recruit irregular cavalry locally, and partly to allow several weeks (at least six, according to veterinarians) for the newly arrived horses to acclimatise. Even then, the defeat at Isandhlwana in 1879 was just one example of an army advancing without adequate scouting horsemen and paying the price."
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:51 pm

"War Games""? And "Warrior"? and " Garibaldi"?

johann. I have been looking, but came up with nothing. So I give in. But would like to know. Was one of them owned by the Prince Imperial.
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90th

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PostSubject: conditions were not right.   Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:52 am

hi impi.
If I remember , The Prince's horse was named Percy . War Game was Wood's horse .
And taking a stab with Garibaldi , either Chelmsford or Buller 's horse ?.
cheers 90th.
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johann engelbrecht



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:41 am

Well done so far! It was the Prince Imperial's Horse called "Tommy" and not "Percy" as many believe. Garibaldi was the horse of Heinrich Filter Jnr, the hero of Lüneburg, who rode his horse as Schermbrucker's interpreter and was present at Hlobane and Khambula and later on patrol with Capt Priar when he was the last one to follow Umbelini and fire the fatal shot on 16 April 1879. It was out of revenge for this that Filter was then ambushed later on 6 June 1879, on which occasion he was not riding his favorite horse Garibaldi !!
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:09 am

Coming back to the winter season in Northern Natal. This is what burned veld looks like this time of the year. This incidentally is a shot of the site of Rabe's House where Booth and his men made a final stand.[img][/img]
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:15 am

Johanna. No photo attached.
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johann engelbrecht



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:18 am

still learning...
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90th

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PostSubject: conditions were not right.   Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:21 am

Hi Johann .
Dont worry mate , you are still a long way in front of me !. :lol!: .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:38 am

admin will post photos
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:44 am

Johann. Send then over.
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johann engelbrecht



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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:46 pm

they are coming..... its a hell of a long way from here to the UK!!!! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: They should have waited. Conditions were not right.    Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:52 am

Burned veld near Entombe. Rabes House Ruins. Where Booth made final stand
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Photo By Johann engelbrecht.
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90th

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PostSubject: conditions were not right.   Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:56 am

hi johann.
Thanks for sharing the photo. Idea . Thanks pete for posting it. Idea .
cheers 90th.
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