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 What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?

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Dave

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PostSubject: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:14 am

What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana? Or did he not get involved. Was it not he who with Chelmsford made the decision to invade Zululand.

“Lord Chelmsford invaded Zululand without the knowledge of the British Government in the hope that he could Capture Cetshwayo, the Zulu King, before London discovered that hostilities had begun”

Frere must have come under fire at some point. Was he part of the count of enquiry? And why were they both not reprimanded for invading with out first obtaining the queens / Governments permission to do so.? When did the Government actually discover that Chelmsford had invaded, was this around the time of Isandlwana or before. If before why did they not recall Chelmsford before he even had chance to enter Zululand.
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90th

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PostSubject: bartle frere   Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:28 am

hi David.
The govt in the UK didnt find out about the invasion until the debacle at Isandlwana had taken place .
At a rough guess it was about 2 weeks after the battle ! . Frere certainly came under fire , He was
I think requested back to England . Not sure of the complete details . Hope this helps.
cheers 90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: bartle frere's opinion.   Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:05 am

Hi David.
I have spent a while looking through books etc etc and cant find any definitive proof of how Frere felt
after the Isandlwana Massacre , I think you would need to read his private papers , but it isnt hard to
analyse what he felt , Shock , Denial , Embarrasment to name but three , I am sure he felt more !.
As far as I know he had nothing to do with the Enquiry into Isandlwana . In regard to your other question
they certainly came under fire , Chelmsford was replaced by Wolseley , who lucky for C'ford didnt get
to the front line till after C'ford had defeated the zulu's at uLundi and therefore regained some of his
credablilty . Frere was censured but not removed and was placed in charge of the Cape Colony .
Many in the govt wanted Frere recalled but it looks as if it was thanks to Hicks - Beach and the Queen
that Frere was able to stay in Sth Africa . In regard to Frere not asking for actual permission to invade ,
he had on several ocassions informed the govt that war with the zulu nation was inevitable . So in a round
about way they had an inkling it was coming ! . Hope this helps .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:24 am

Dave. With regards to Isandlwana, Frere said and wrote that the disaster was caused, because a senior officer disobeyed direct orders, which as we know is quite right.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:19 am

Quote :
Frere said and wrote that the disaster was caused
Not sure this is correct. He may have thought it. But I don't recall reading it anywhere.
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90th

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PostSubject: bartle frere's opinion.   Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:12 pm

hi ctsg.
can you tell me where you found this , as I dont think I've seen it before . Would like to know the
source material . Idea .
cheers 90th.

ps. Some orders were disreguarded even by those who set them ! , therefore it is a correct assumption some were
disobeyed by those who should have known better , and I am speaking of several individuals .
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Saul David 1879



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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:12 pm

Quote :
Would like to know the source material
If you don't mind. I would like to know also.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:01 pm

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:29 pm

CTSG. Who's the author
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90th

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PostSubject: bartle frere's opinion.   Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:32 pm

hi ctsg.
Thanks for the post , what is the books title ?
cheers 90th.

ps. 24th I didnt see your post , hopefully ctsg will help us out .
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:35 pm

24th You name the name of the author. I don't have to tell you that. And if you don't know take sometime to find out.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:37 pm

CTSG. Was it your good old friend: FRANCES E. COLENSO. :lol!:


Remember this from the Durnford was he capable. Discussion.

CTSG Says
Quote :
"You may be glad to know that I will not entertain the new discussion regarding Durnford and Colenso.
A fantasy tale that led to a Conspiracy against the Good Lord Chelmsford."

So are we now to belive what Colenso says about Frere.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:48 pm

Ouch!!! CTSG. That must have hurt. Shocked
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:11 pm

CTSG
You have no idea the entertainment that has given me. My stomach HURTS.
While we are on the subject of source material, please give me the source for your comments on Luards courts martial........... apart from Wikepedea that is.
Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:13 pm

Frere asked that he be relieved of his post. Thats also contained in the Chelmsford letter.
I believe his first comment on getting the news was " Bugger".

Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:58 pm

Springbok your sources:
1 New York Times - 20 September 1908
2 New York Times - 19 September 1908
3 New York Times - 20 September 1908
4 A Reasonable Doubt by Julian Symons First published by the Cresset Press Ltd in 1960
5.New York Times - 20 September 1908
6.New York Times - 27 November 1908
7 Adam, Hargrave Lee. The Police Encyclopaedia. London: Waverly Book Company.
8 Janes, Diane. Edwardian Murder: Ightham & the Morpeth Train Robbery. Stroud: Sutton Publishing.
9 Symons, Julian. A Reasonable Doubt. London: Cresset Press
10 The Murder of Caroline Luard at Spartacus Educational
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:42 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Dave. With regards to Isandlwana, Frere said and wrote that the disaster was caused, because a senior officer disobeyed direct orders, which as we know is quite right.

CSTG I totaly agree Idea

Chelsmoford disobayed his own standing orders


Fail to see who else did Suspect

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:46 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Dave. With regards to Isandlwana, Frere said and wrote that the disaster was caused, because a senior officer disobeyed direct orders, which as we know is quite right.

Well, of course Frere would have written that.
Like 2 peas in a pod. C'ford and Frere would have spewed out the same rhetoric and same excuses.
What C'ford and Frere wrote in their sorry cover up does not answer the original question which is a good one.
How did Frere (and Chelmsford) FEEL about the disaster at iSandlwana ?
(As human beings, one can only imagine that they would have felt as 90th has begun to describe above).
However, I am sure that private papers, diaries etc about how men like that felt emotionally, do not exist. Can you imagine C'ford or Frere writing down anything about their "feelings?"
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: What was Sir Bartle Frere’s opinion of the disaster at Isandlwana?    Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:04 pm

Sir Bartle. Didn't have much choice,he had to agree with Chelmsford. Did they both not agree to invade Zululand without the knowledge of the British Government.

There is an author by the name of Damian. Who has written some leading work on Sir Bartle Frere. Don't know his surname.
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