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 Did Gardner Desert.

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90th

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PostSubject: Did Gardner Desert    Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:18 pm

Hi DB .
I'm not confused :lol: I said Chelmesford never left any written orders . And I have in my latest post actually posted
the Clery letter in which Clery states he himself left the orders . Actually they are not the Alison letters , it was sent to
Colonel Harman . :lol: :lol: It just happens to be in the book ' Zululand at war ' by Sonia Clarke which was produced by the
Brenthurst Press , and also has the Alison Letters in it as well .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:54 pm

All

Clery was junior to Pulleine and hardly in a position to Give him an order. Yet its clear that he did. I would therefore assume he gave the orders in Chelmsfords name. Clery freely admitted that he passed orders, in his testimony at the COI.

But its equally clear that orders, written that is, were left. Therefore Staffords testimony can not readily be questioned on the issue of Him having seen the orders being passed between Pulleine/Durnford.

The fact that Stafford has stated the orders were left by Chelmsford could be put down to him either getting it wrong,or Pulleine possibly believing the orders were from Chelmsford, via Clery.

Or am I missing the point?

Tasker

For sure, one has to question statements, but when one is given voluntarily, with no expectations of profit or to avoid any sort of blame, in short with no axe to grind. Then it should be treated with certain respect and given credilbility. I can not see any reason why Stafford should lie. The level of detail in the balance of his statement regarding other issues is pretty remarkable.

With reference to Lock and Quantrills assertions that there is no proof. Cochran has refered to Durnfords comments directed at Pulleine:" You were ordered to draw in etc" Assuming there was no orders, why would there be so many sources refering to them?

Cheers

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:54 pm

Was he not just translating the order as it was put to him.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:12 am

Hi all

Anyway with or without new orders, with or without Gardner, the British are strategically rolled by the Zulus, from beginning to end during the campaign of Isandhlwana, thanks to the incompetence of Chelmsford :lol: ...

It seems that the Zulus would triumphing, although Chelmsford had not left the camp ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:28 am

Littlehand
Could have just been an assumption on the part of Stafford or even Pulleine. Fact remains though that theres no way a Lt Col will take an order from a Major so Pulleine would have been assured that the order came from Chelmsford.


Pascal

Incisive.

Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:01 am

Yes what I say is incisive, but I'm looking for a solution, nothing could prevent the disaster, once the third column entered the Zululand ....

In fact it would have had a single column, consisting of all troops forming the columns 1, 2, 3 and 4 in early January 1879, then deliver and win a single giant battle , then the road to Ulundi would have been free. ..

Actually leaving the camp Isandhlwana, Chelmsford saved the lives of several hundred men, that is, to all those he brought with him ...

But in this war there, as in many others, make a small detachments is very dangerous game ...

Cheers

Pascal
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90th

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PostSubject: Did Gardner desert   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:31 am

Hi Pascal.
There was thought when planning the invasion of having a single column but Chelmesford was worried that the zulu army
would bypass the column and have a free reign into Natal crossing wherever they wished . Also it was seen as being to large and to slow to operate at a consistant pace or to be defended properly .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:05 am

90th
Took the words out of my mouth.
Again Hindsight is a wonderous thing.
Chelmsfords priorities were to defend Natal, defeat the Zulu and not tell the British Government he was doing it.

Besides, it took 10 days to get from Rorkes Drift to iSandlwana with his 4000 men, how long would it have taken with 20 000.
He got it right the second time with the flying column from Dundee.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:30 am

I think if the Zulu had had knowledge of a unique and huge British column entering their country, they would make a point of honors of attacking this column, before they even think about threatening Natal ...

Then they would have suffered one or two massacres of the kind of Gingindlhovo or Ulundi and the war would have been completed at less cost to the poor guys of the 24 th ...

Any ways even with several British columns entering Zululand, the Zulu could enter easily Natal, given the levity of their army, but not stay there, given their lack of military logistics ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:46 am

All
Clery issued the orders in the name of Lord Chelmsford to Pulleine (and my word, was Chelmsford glad afterwards!). This is all well-documented and there should really be no argument about it. Stafford did not actually enter Pulleine's tent but remained outside, overhearing the conversation. The only surviving eye-witness to what happened inside the tent was Cochrane and he wrote:

"Colonel Pulleine gave over to Colonel Durnford, a verbal state of the troops in camp at the

time, and stated the orders he had received, viz., to defend the camp; these words were

repeated two or three times in the conversation."

It may be of course that Pulleine was reading from his orders as he repeated them two or three times to Durnford and that Durnford/Shepstone told Stafford afterwards that so-and-so was in Chelmsford's written orders as read to him by Pulleine but Stafford didn't personally see them for himself.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:59 am

Julian
its a moot point really. Stafford does not specifically say he entered the tent, " Col Durnford and Captain Shepstone entered the tent." He does comment specifically that Pulleine handed him the written instructions. And again: " In looking over the orders, Col Durnford remarked.'you have orders to draw in the camp.'
He also comments on Pulleins reply to that remark.
Its a pretty explicit series of comments.
Cochrans mention that the orders were repeated two or three times does not as you say intimate there were no written orders or indeed that they were shown/given to Durnford.
Considering the circumstances of the day, hot conditions etc I would be suprised if Pulleins tent flaps were closed, even if a conversation was taking place. It would therefore appear that even if Stafford were outside he would have had a view of the interaction.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:53 pm

Springbok
i have no doubt that Stafford overheard the conversation, may even have glimpsed what was going on through the flap, was thoroughly briefed afterwards as to what had transpired, and was telling the truth about the event.
I have no doubt that Clery did write orders for Pulleine as he stated.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:11 pm

Hi Julian
I was really trying to make a point that Lock and Quantrils argument that there was no proof the orders existed was patently incorrect.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:16 pm

And I totally agree with you.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:42 pm

This is not the first time i have read about L and Q's works being unreliable.
I was quite convinced by the Missing 5 Hours essay. Should I disregard it?

And to get things back on topic, from what I have read on here, I am coming down on Gardner's side. I do not think he deserted, i agree with DB14, that he bravely ran a hazardous errand. I am more convinced that Coghill and Melville deserted - doh - off topic again!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:10 pm

L and Q's work on TMFH is an outstnding peice of reashearch.




Cheers


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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:53 pm

Drummer Boy 14
When viewing your posts I find myself looking for your spelling mistakes instead of the post content. Try word spell
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:56 pm

kendrick Nelson wrote:
Drummer Boy 14
I find myself looking for your spelling mistakes instead of the post content.


Kendrick, im 15 years old and bad at english,i try to make my words readable, to me odd word realy doesn't matter
as long as you can read it.




Cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:31 pm

kendrick. We all make spelling mistakes, but we are not here to pick up on that. As long as we understand what's being said. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:20 pm

Is this fact or speculation on David Rattay's part

" In an act of insubordination, Captain Gardiner writes a note to Major Clery
(An officer on patrol with Lord Chelmsford) That Stepstone had come in for reinforcements and that the British contingent was too thinly spread out to make an effective defensive stand"
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:49 pm

Its fiction .
Gardiner did add a note to that sent by Pulleine. It read:" Heavy firing near left of camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports the Basutos falling back the whole force turned out and firing about 1 mile to left flank. Alan Gardner Captain."

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:00 pm

Why would David Rattay make it up scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:02 pm

Because he was a story teller, not a historian.





Cheers
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PostSubject: Did Gardener Desert   Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi Littlehand.
I dont think its a case of David Rattray '' Making it up '' it's well known David was a '' Story Teller '' and therefore
he used as we say Artistic Licence . Lets just say he didnt let the facts get in the way of a good story , much like the press of today . This is in
no way any criticism of D.Rattray or his work .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:46 pm

littlehand
Purely artistic licence! Just like Spike Milligan!
springbok
Just so the others have it absolutely correct, Gardner's note actually read, "Heavy firing near left of Camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements, and reports the Basutos falling back. The whole force at Camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank."
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:48 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There is reference to that here on page 7
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:58 pm

Except that Greaves's quotation is wrong. Gardner's message does not read:
"Heavy firing near left of camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports that the Basutos (Shepstone‟s men) are falling back. Whole camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank."
It does read:
"Heavy firing near left of Camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements, and reports the Basutos falling back. The whole force at Camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank."
One needs to get these things absolutely right.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:15 pm

Hardly any differents.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:36 pm

If one quotes from a document it is important to get it right - especially in the attribution of blame or what another might have read into a message. 'Hardly any difference' is not good enough. Either something is correct or it isn't. In this case it isn't.
Ever heard of the WMD dossier?
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue May 22, 2018 9:56 pm

in addition:
Quoted inn" God, Queen and Colony";
-From Fairlie [W.F. Fairlie, Shepstone’s Horse?] “Capt. Alan Gardner rode here from Isandlwana and was out of his head, and spread panic through the place and everywhere he passed”.
-There were witnesses to Gardner’s rescue and one of them wrote the following for the press: “ I can affirm that honour on that occasion is due to Lieutenant-Adjutant Biecher, of Woods Irregulars, for I was standing within three yards of the gallant Captain, when he implored Biecher to assist him, and I saw him carried on Biecher’s crupper across the nek, between the pass and the lower plateau, and through a heavy cross fire from the Zulus”.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Tue May 22, 2018 10:06 pm

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the 2nd quote is about Hlobane.
Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 7:19 am

Quote
"
Gardner is seldom credited for the vital part he played in the drama of Rorke’s Drift (arguably the most celebrated battle in the history of the British Army). Bearing in mind that the garrison had little more than an hour in which to prepare their makeshift defences, each minute was absolutely crucial and Gardner’s message arrived at least 110 minutes before Lieutenant John Chard R.E, the senior officer present, got back to the depot where he found, due to Gardner’s note, the defences already being built in feverish haste."

In his approximate chronology and sequence, Whybra Studies in the Zulu War 1879 vol 1 pp 68, The first notification was received by Bromhead at 3.05. a few minutes later Chard met with Adendorff. At 3.15 Chard arrived at the post and found preperations underway.

Its impossible to be totally accurate in times but 110minutes? That would put Chards received warning at around 5 ish around the time when battle had commenced.
Is Ron then saying Chard had nothing to do with the preparation work?

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 9:39 am

Xhosa
I agree with all that (except MacPhail was NOT a waggon conductor).
Frank
I think 110 is a typo for 10 perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 10:58 am




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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert. Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:36 pm


Quote from july 3 2012

"If one quotes from a document it is important to get it right - especially in the attribution of blame or what another might have read into a message. 'Hardly any difference' is not good enough. Either something is correct or it isn't. In this case it isn't.
Ever heard of the WMD dossier?" Joker


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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 11:14 am

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 11:22 am

Bonjour Frank,
Totally agree with "your/Julian"'s quote (and incidentally with your conclusion). Personnally, if I knew the rumors about Gardner's behaviour at Isandhlwana, I didn't know the quote about Hlobane....

Xhosa,
As usual with you: no comment.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 12:33 pm

Probably going to get myself in trouble here......

Wasn't Gardners message dictated by Essex and that it was Gardner's message only because he had pencil & bit of paper.

I thought Essex, Gardner and AN Other officer (can't recall his namebut there are 3 more options..... scratch ) met up and conferred - then splitting up in two parties.

I have always questioned the 'military' validity of the message - given the issuers lack of knowledge about the current state of RD, nor the fact that he did not know the strength of the Zulus advancing on the post (or even if they were?) and the fact that as far as he knew he was issuing an order to Major Spalding (CO of RD).

However leaving that aside (my personal gripe) - if things had gone pear shaped at RD - who in the subsequent inquiry would have been 'blamed' the issuer or the writer....it sound a bit like the recriminations at the end of the 1968 CoTLB movie when Raglan says that (the fourth order) was "not his writing".

Cheers

Sime
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 12:47 pm

Sime you make a number of good points so at the risk of angering Kate would an explanation be that he was even at that stage suffering some form of panic attack? The PTS seems to have been making itself felt when he met up with Macphail, which makes his ride through the night even more arduous. He was without doubt a good soldier and brave man but there is something to his behaviour that's out of character. Personally if I had been chased over that hill and through/across the river I would be a tad jittery as well.
In terms of 'blame' who was first on the army list? Essex or Gardner ?
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 1:19 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:

In terms of 'blame' who was first on the army list? Essex or Gardner ?

Essex 19th Feb 1867
Gardner 27th July 1866

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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 1:22 pm

Thanks Andy
That would seem Simon that Gardner with Authorship and Seniority would have carried any can.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 1:31 pm

Hi Frank,

Having read a lot of things about battles in past and the decisions made by participants during or soon after, I am a big believer in PTSD - in whatever phrase was used at the time.

'Of his head' (wasn't something similar used to describe AWD but never in his defence?).....'in a right funk' 'nervous' etc - the Victorians had some rather quaint ways of describing a condition - which is only starting to finally understood today.

We have mentioned before how many AZW veterans have ended up killing themselves, drinking themselves to death or finishing in asylums -possibly years down the line.

A number of the survivors who trotted past RD seemed to be suffering similarly.

Cheers

Sime

PS I personally would have been a bit more than a tad jittery, I would have invoked the old war cry of the Browns 'Armageddon Armageddon' (- I'm a geddon out of here)...... Rolling Eyes


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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 1:32 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Thanks Andy
That would seem Simon that Gardner with Authorship and Seniority would have carried any can.

That's why he was 'Lucky' Essex.......I spose....
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 2:42 pm

A one word answer to the title of this thread:-

NO

Nor did he have post traumatic stress disorder as his actions during later life testifies. As a cool professional army officer he was not 'off his head' nor was he running away. He had a job to do and he did it well.
There's a lot more going on here than first meets the eye with the other survivors.
It is all in here so I'll say no more.

http://www.alangardnerbook.com/

Kate Very Happy
p.s. no worries about being angry Frank. The suns out and I've got 4 days off work. Happy days:D Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 3:04 pm

Enjoy the break Kate. Ive got to stop staring at your book and get into turning the pages. This weekend. lock the doors, handcuff the grandkids and get down to it. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    Wed May 23, 2018 3:38 pm

Hi y'all

I know very little about PTSD and even less about the later life of AG (I know his gt grandfather was born in my home town)

But looking on the internet, as well as PTSD, there is:-

Accute Stress Disorder/Reaction

◾️The person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with (e.g., can include learning of) an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others.
◾️Though not required, the person’s response is likely to involve intense fear, helplessness, or horror.

Either during or following the distressing event, the individual has 3 or more of the following dissociative symptoms:
◾️A subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness
◾️A reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings (e.g., “being in a daze”)
◾️Derealization
◾️Depersonalization
◾️Dissociative amnesia (i.e., inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma)

If the symptoms of this last from 3 days to 1 month, if they go on for more than 1 month - it is called PTSD (which is permanent - without treatment). So it sounds like ASD is short term self curing PTSD

I don't wish to argue because I too am off work and the sun is shinning in Staffordshire but just because AG showed no signs of PTSD in later life - it does not mean he did not have ASD at the time, likewise I won't/can't argue that he had it (for the same reasons) but I can say we do not know if he had it or not.

Now with out actually asking/psychoanalysing AG we can not be sure of his symptoms or what was going through his mind.......

Cheers

Sime (sitting in the garden psychoanalysing himself)
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PostSubject: Re: Did Gardner Desert.    

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Did Gardner Desert.
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