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 Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.

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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:53 am

rusteze wrote:
Frank

Reading Macleroy's father's letter that you posted it seems he was quite adamant he did not want his sons remains to be disturbed. Why then did he have him re-interred in Pietermaritzberg?

Steve

Where can i read Macleroy Fathers letter??????  Link please
Thanks

Aussie
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:36 am

Steve
I think JY is more qualified to answer that one. But I would suggest it wasn't a case of having his son disturbed but more retaining the individual grave rather than a mass grave.
Aussie
Go back a few posts its on page 2.
Gary
Just extracting the urine a touch Very Happy
I was lucky when I went of to find the Shepstone grave, I was staring at the ground so bloody hard looking for Adders that I found an MH round. Also two snakes, Ive never ever walked around there in shorts and sandals again, these days boots and Kharkies.
JY
probably as you say, just a bit of affectation. ( I do the same when I tell the grandkids to call me 'oh mighty one') Very Happy Their more likely to tell me to bugger of though.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:39 am

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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:29 am

Hi Frank
No problem mate Very Happy . I can say I've never worn shorts , sandals , or the like whenever I've been actually on the battlefields , strictly boots and Cargo pants ( lots of pockets ! ) . Yes my eyes were looking downward , but I still didn't see the three nesting birds fly off just near my left foot Shocked Shocked , luckily it wasn't an Adder or something else just as nasty Shocked Shocked Shocked . I assume you did the '' right '' thing and left the MH round where you fond it ? Joker Joker Joker Joker Joker
Cheers Mate
90th
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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:36 am

Does anyone know if the Macleroy gravestone has been replaced or repaired ? , if I get the chance in Oct we may go and have a look , does anyone know which cemetery ( In case there are several ) and its location , along with details to find Macleroy ? . ....Tim ??????
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:45 am

90th
Follow littlehand's link to JY's post.
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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:50 am

Thanks JW , so if I contact JY he will have the relevant information I may need , is that what you mean ? , there is no mention of directions in JY's post .
Cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:09 am

90th
No. Read my post again. It's Littlehand's post of 8.39 with a link to a post from JY giving the cemetery details.
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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

Thanks JW , all good .
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:35 am

Commercial Road Cemetry = Chief Albert Luthuli Road Cemetry
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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:51 am

Thanks Frank agree
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:56 pm

Been there 90th with Paul Naish
Macleroy grave is on the left hand side as you enter the gate on Commercial Road its about 100 down the path
on the other side of the Road you can see the graves of Bishop Colenso daughters go through the gate its your first or second path on your left about 50 paces you can not miss it and Theopolis Shepestone
go down the entry path there is another path on your right go down 100 meters or so many of his family members are buried beside him mate

good luck mate
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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:10 pm

Thanks Aussie , when you going over again ?
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:22 pm

I cam only go after Christmas most likely 2017 I have a list of places for the Major he still needs to find a couple of them for me.

Frank when you go to find Macleroy grave take some 360 degree photos mate and get the GPS cordiants please that will be first on my list his story is quite moving.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:17 pm

Hello Frank
Did you make it up to Isandlwana on Sept 10th? Did you find Macleroy's marked grave?
We managed to get to the battlefield on Monday Sept 19th, the day after the first substantial rainfall for 18 months or so. 300 to 400 yards down the Fugitives' Drift we found a small cairn with very little whitewash, but no memorial stone with Macleroy's name on it. Was this the wrong cairn or has Macleroy's named stone been removed?

I had a look at the Aberdeen Evening Express March 15 1879 which quoted from a letter from Muirhead that had appeared in a Natal paper. Andrew Muirhead and George M'Leroy had left the field of battle when "a bullet struck George between the shoulder-blades. He swayed once or twice, and then fell. Andrew stopped, and as a doctor was passing at the time, he asked him to see if George was really dead. They jumped on their horses again, and had gone about 20 yards ------ when they saw a Zulu quivering his assegai for a throw --- Andrew dug the spurs ---the assegai passed him and killed the doctor". If this is the "true story" it implies George was not injured till he had left the battlefield and it also confirms that Peter Shepherd died very close to George Macleroy. What do you think?
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David Shepherd
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:08 pm

Hi David
I did indeed get to the Fugitives trail. The hottest day of the year so far wasn't the best timing Im afraid.
I think this is the cairn you refer to
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Just passed this one, around 200 metres the fence line on the left takes aa bend, The Macleroy grave in that region, very difficult to locate, I searched for a long time without success. I subsequently discovered it was now surrounded by thorn trees.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:13 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:53 pm

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PostSubject: Surgeon Maj P Shepherd AMD    Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:01 pm

Hi All
IK has a photo which he and Paul Castle from memory took back in the 90's , it's basically from memory on a rise , so none of those shown appear to be the one , with the exception of the one JW posted , but you cant see the background , IK is bringing the photo to Sth Africa , hopefully we'll find it , and I'll ask someone to post it for us .
90th Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:13 am

Hi All
As I pointed out to David, the photos Ive posted are of a 'cairn' on the track that he thought was the Macleroy grave. It isn't, his grave is further down over to the left in a copse of trees. The headstone is still there but virtually invisible. I spent a long time and couldn't locate it, but when I got back to the carpark it was described by one of the FDL guides.

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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:04 am

Julian
That photo was pirated from this one:
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:32 am

Do you mean that this photo is yours?
Ask Maritzburg College to change the attribution!
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:38 am

Most of those photos from the College have been 'apropriated' from this site. Ive spoken to them before about it but they have no sense of morality at all. Reading their site they have no sense of accuracy either. That particular photo actually belongs to another forum member, no longer active.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:49 am

Tsk! And they're educating children too!
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:13 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:28 pm

Hello Frank
Sorry to hear that you couldn't find Macleroy's marked cairn. The one we found, pic attached, was different from the one you saw. We thought ours looked like the earlier Macleroy one with minimal whitewash, but clearly there are several like this. As you said the field guide knows that Macleroy's marked cairn still exsists higher up and further on the Drift route. At least we have been close to where Peter Shepherd was interred. The whole battlefield scenario was moving, having changed so little since January 1879.

Some of you in the past have known/been in contact with descendants of Peter's brother William Shepherd. Any contact details would be much appreciated.
Regards
David Shepherd
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:03 pm

John Young wrote:

I taken you mean MacLeroy - Mac means Son of.  Leroy might take some translation from Frederic's mother tongue.  The name betrays the family's regal roots.

JY

Bonjour,

Leroy (or Leroi, Le Roi, Rey in the south-west of France...)

1°) A surname must be considered more like a nickname that as a title of nobility. Indeed, the name Leroy means "King", and it is difficult to think that the ancestors of these people were kings, otherwise during popular festivals or in parallel societies (think of the King of the Court of Miracles in Notre - Dame of Paris).

For example in Picardy, during the Middle-Ages there was a game: "The archers gathered at shooting competitions at the bird . The bird (Papegault, papegeay or simply jay) was set up on a pole. The shoot was not easy because we had to do it completely. Breaking a member or head was not enough, we had to take the body away. That's why the game could last several days. One who succeeded was named "king" and was entitled to the first place in the parades for a year. Whoever was "king" two years later became "constable". If he succeeded a third time, he took the title "emperor".
 (JF. Leblond et Y. Brohard, Vie et traditions populaires en Picardie) ».


2°) The name may also refer to someone who operated property belonging to the King, not to the local Lord.

Actually, there are  94 000 Leroy in France .

I.E.: Informations taken from two French genealogy websites.

Regards

Frédéric
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:39 pm

Photos from 90th
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The resting place of Surg Maj Shepherd , it's about 15 -20 metres from Macleroy
Here's the believed Shepherd Cairn , I'm (90th) in one of the photos to show it's scale.. I'm about 5' 11''
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:03 pm

1879Graves
How can you be absolutely sure that this cairn is where Shepherd was buried?
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:06 pm

Julian,

It is 90th’s assumption rather than Andy’s. Andy is merely the conduit for the Australian who can’t manage to post his own photographs.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:09 pm

Thanks John...all right then...

Andy
How can you be absolutely sure that this cairn is where Shepherd was buried?
I really don't think you can.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:48 pm

Julian,

It is Gary (90th) who you should asking.

JY
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:01 am

Hi Julian
No-one knows for sure if this is the Shepherd Cairn , but in all possibility it may just be so . Trpr Muirhead who left the camp with Macleroy ( also known as ' Kelly ' to his fellow Carbineers ) quotes '' Kelly ( Macleroy ) staggered in the saddle , evidently hit with an assegai , I stopped my horse to see what was the matter , and tried to support him , but could not , and had to left him off onto the ground . At that Moment Dr Shepherd came galloping past . I called out to him , and he dismounted to examine poor ' Kelly ' . After carefully examining him he said ' Ah the poor fellow ! Too late , too late ! ' . I had just mounted my horse and Dr Shepherd was in the of putting his foot into the Stirrup , when he was struck fatally with an assegai ''. This is in zulu rising p430 and in the Shepherd Bio in Mack & Shad , so on the evidence this ' Possible ' Shepherd Cairn is only a few metres from Macleroy's original grave , so it seems , it just may well be Shepherd who's under it ?.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:11 am

Gary (eventually!)
Thanks for the reply. I am familiar of course with Muirhead's account and the reasoning derived from it. I was wondering whether there was any other reason why THAT particular cairn was hit upon as Shepherd's. Apparently not.
As for the name 'Kelly', as far as I'm aware that is just not true. No-one ever referred to him as 'Kelly'. The Muirhead quotation was just a mistranscription following the first time that this story appeared in print, repeated ever after.
I am willing to be corrected but I don't believe there's any evidence at all for the nickname 'Kelly'.
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:27 am

Julian,

Having known the descendant family for decades, and having had the opportunity to study much of their period correspondence, the nickname of ‘Kelly’ does not appear anywhere.  George was known by his family and friends as ‘Geordie’.  

In some of Muirhead’s early published accounts the name appears as M’Leroy, as it does on some published casualty returns.  At sometime in late February/early March 1879 the name Kelly begins to appear in the U.K. press, which other publications reproduced and the myth of Kelly was born.

JY
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:05 am

Hi Julian .
I don't know weather the ' Kelly ' thing is correct or not to be honest , this was from Ian K's ' Zulu Rising ' as I mentioned , but Macleroy is also referred to as ' Kelly ' in Mack & Shad page 280 , just because family and friends knew Macleroy as Geordie , it doesn't mean M'head and or his Carbineer friends didn't have their own nickname for him ie Kelly , we'll never know to be honest , I had at least 3 nick names from seperate groups of friends whilst growing up , therefore no reason that Macleroy couldn't have had another nick name also ? , in regard to the Cairn , this Cairn is the only one near Macleroy , it's also quite high , not large , could this possibly be because Shepherd may have been identified and consigned to the pages of history by the finder / finders ? ,  therefore resulting in a larger than average size Cairn  ?  , outside of pulling it apart and doing some tests we'll never know with 100 % certainty , we do know that Muirhead said Shepherd was fatally struck attempting to mount , not that he was mounted , this could also possibly explain the Cairn being in very close proximity to Macleroy , I think it's more probable than not , but we'll never know with certainty .
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:54 am

Gary,

The ‘Kelly’ thing is an error first made in the U.K. in 1879.  Mac’ & Shad’ perpetuated the error and subsequent authors have compounded it.  The memorial site of Geordie’s old school has the error on their website http://collegewargraves.blogspot.co.uk/p/isandlwana-1879.html as well using material without due acknowledgement. I have challenged both the assertion and material without response.



JY
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:15 pm

Hi JY
Understood , but how can you know for any certainty he wasn't called Kelly by Muirhead alone , or by others who were close to him in Carbineer ranks , just because there is no documented evidence doesn't purely mean it didn't happen ? , as I said I had different groups of friends growing up , I was known by different nick names ( all complimentary by the way ! hahahaha ) , let's not forget that someone's nick name may not be common knowledge to someone's other friends and family , it may well be a mistake , but unfortunately ...we can't ask anyone ! Joker Joker
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:45 pm

Gary,

In the first published accounts of Muirhead’s account, George MacLeroy is referred to as M’Leroy as I stated above. Someone then publishes the same account only with the name Kelly substituted for M’Leroy. The report is then picked by other newspapers and Kelly - in lieu of the correct name - starts appearing in regional newspapers.

It is an error, either a typographical one or one made at proofreading stage in 1879.

We can ask someone, the person made repeated it as fact in Zulu Rising, for his source. You are in contact with Ian ask him for his source.

JY
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:51 pm

Ian K said he first heard of it from Terry Sole , who said it was Klroy , Sole believed it was probably changed to Kelly , as it's easier to say .
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:32 pm

Gary,

Contradicting his reference in Zulu Rising which he cites as Mac’ & Shad’.

Sorry but it doesn’t wash with me. A snippet from a person now sadly deceased.

Just my opinion.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:19 pm

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Aberdeen Evening Express 15 March 1879

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Shetland Times 22 March 1879
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:38 am

Hi JY
I wasn't clear with my reply from Ian K yesterday , obviously Ian did get the Kelly nickname from Mack and Shad... because it's footnoted in Zulu Rising that he did so , and it's certainly in Mack & Shad as I mentioned . I didn't actually ask him what was his source , but in conversation he also said Terry Sole was certain M'leroy's nick name was Kelly , but Ian wasn't sure why , also there is no Trpr Kelly in the Carbineers , so who else is Muirhead referring to ? , after all there was only Muirhead and Macleroy together . In a later conversation , it was then that Ian Mentioned he remembered Terry Sole saying it was probably the Carbs that amended Klroy to Kelly , as it sounds a bit like it , and was easier. Hopefully that's a bit clearer , it's a little difficult to refute out of hand , or it doesn't wash , if you read Andy's post from the Shetland Times dated 22/ 3 / 79 ? .
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:08 am

Gary,

We’ll agree to differ.

However, you will note that the first account is taken from a Natal newspaper source.  Throughout it Andrew Muirhead refers to many of his Natal Carbineer colleagues by diminutive versions of their full given names.  Essentially calling them by the names that he knew them by - Charley, Willie, Charlie and Teddy.  Why did he not refer the George in that narrative as ‘Kelly’ MacLeroy?

Things change in publications for example in some of the reports the Swinburne(sic)-Henri(sic) has changed for public consumption to Martini-Henri(sic) in the U.K.

The source for the Kelly fable is The Lancet, the Shetland Times and many publications treated as fact.  The Lancet is still alive and kicking.  So I will endeavour to contact them to establish whether they hold any archives which might reveal the identity the person - no doubt a doctor - who submitted the original piece.  I hope that picked up the key work there - a doctor - and we all know what doctor’s handwriting is like don’t we?

Maybe then we can debunk this myth for once and for all.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:07 pm

The Aberdeen Express, seems imply that Lt Durrant Scott, was killed near the river and that a wounded George Shepstone was trying to hide under some bodies.

I believed that Scott died with died with Durnford and an account (a Zulu one) mentions another scenario for Shepstone's death.

Given the mistakes (or relaying of rumours/embellisments by reporter or interviewee) that appear to be about these two - how much of the other stuff, such as conversations can be counted as fact.....

Can he know the conversation between HBP and AWD......?

I recall that QM Bullock was shot, however......

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Sime

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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:16 pm

Sime,

We can apply the same rationale to every survivors’ statement. Who or what do we believe?

The descendant family of George MacLeroy have another version of events as well. Their version has it that George was actually shot whilst in the line, rather than being shot whilst decamping. Mortally wounded he was being assisted from the battlefield by Muirhead when he succumbed to his wound and fell from his horse.

For many years it was accepted that fifty-five Europeans survived iSandlwana. That myth was debunked by David Jackson in 1965, yet again and again the figure fifty-five is still trotted out by authors. The same for the number defenders of Rorke’s Drift debunked over again yet still repeated by modern authors. Who do we believe?

JY
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:36 pm

Hi,

Yes that right - even in my family we have 'tales' from my great great uncle, who was trapped and almost killed when a local pit flooded, in 1908 - the family 'history' says one thing but when I got my hands on the official report into the disaster (with the witness statements etc) - it was totally different to what was said within the family.

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Sime
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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:37 pm

Hi John

On the note of a Doctor as the source of the Kelly fable.

I am going to say it could be Surgeon Dugald Blair Brown.

The following was written by Surgeon Dugald Blair Brown and published in The Lancet.

My late confrere and friend, Surgeon-Major Shepherd, was killed by a thrown assegai just as he was starting from the side of a wounded Natal Carabineer whom he was examining. Trooper Muirhead of the Carabineers, who was with him at the time, informs me that he saw it coming, bent his head down on his horses neck and escaped it. Shepherd was close to him and received it in his back. He at once fell from his horse with a loud exclamation, and was surrounded by Zulus and finished. The depth a thrown assegai will penetrate is great.


I do not have a date when the above was first published in The Lancet.


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PostSubject: Re: Surgeon Major P. Shepherd Army Medical Department.   Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:07 pm

Hi Andy,

Just to clarify Surgeon Dugald Blair Brown was actually serving in the Army Medical Department, he was first appointed to the rank of Assistant Surgeon on 30th March 1872.  When that rank became obsolete his appointment as Surgeon was ante-dated to that date.  I think I might have erroneously shown him as Civil Surgeon in the old journal at some stage.

Shepherd and Brown actually served together at Woolwich Garrison and the Herbert Hospital, prior to Shepherd being posted to the Cape.  I believe Brown embarked with 99th when they left for Natal in November 1878.

I was in contact with Brown’s relatives about ten years ago, who supplied me with copies of photographs of him.  If I still have their details in my address book I will drop them a line and see if they can assist further re-any possible correspondence.

JY
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PostSubject: Surgeon Major P Shepherd AMD    Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:40 am

JY
I don't remember ever seeing a pic of Dugald Blair Brown , is it possible for you to post one on the Forum ? .
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