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 Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling

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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:37 pm

I have seen many way of spelling "Cetshwayo" & "Isandlwana" Here's a few..

ISANDLWANA
ISANDHLWANA
ISANDULA

CETEWAYO
CETSHWAYO
CETYWAYO

Im fairly sure the Zulu would not have used these spellings, and the spellings would have been instigated by Europeans. But what is the correct way to spell these words.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:54 pm

I would assume the correct spellings his how those who were in Zululand in 1879 spelt them. I believe the troops spelt Isandlwana with an (H) ISANDHLWANA.

The Zulu King learned to spell his name in this way, the Zulu sound, more accuratley represented by tshwa, tshwe, tshwi,&c.,having for many years been spelt tywa, tywe,tywi,&c., By Zulu Scholars.

CETSHWAYO
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Not in copyright.

Spelt "Cetshwayo"

Source: The ruin of Zululand :
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90th

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PostSubject: Cetswayo / Isandlwana    Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:02 am

Hi all.
This or at least the spelling of Isandlwana has been well and truly covered on this forum . Pete may know where the thread is .
I cant remember where it is , but maybe a few months back under ' General Discussion ' links.
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:15 am

Quote from Ian Knight in the introduction to Through the Zulu Country by Bertram Mitford.

In the 1940s Zulu was scientifically codified as a language and adjustments made to a number of spellings, Isandlwana ( new spelling) being a notable case.

During the war the British troops liked to call the Zulu chief ' Catch-away-o'. Gingindlovu was christened ' Gin Gin I love you".

Regards
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:36 pm

Gin Gin I love you". :lol!: You made that up!!!

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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:28 pm

Its true Mr G.
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90th

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PostSubject: Cetswayo / Isandlwana    Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:54 pm

Hi MrG.
It isnt made up , thats what the british troops named it believe it or not :lol!: . Many references to Isandlwana being
spelt Isandula by British officers in letters home .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:51 am

Mr G, C,mon would I kid you? :lol!:
Regards
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:44 pm

Hi All

The Zulu language, isiZulu, operates a noun class prefix system so, technically, the correct spelling is 'iSandlwana' (the lower case 'i' being the appropriate prefix in this case). In some cases I have seen the prefix dropped in written translation leaving, simply, 'Sandlwana'.

As regards the question of whether it should properly be "dhl" or "dl" in the middle, and in addition to the 1940s review mentioned by Springbok9 above, I think the confusion is (or rather, was,) probably down to the similarity in form of the isiZulu consonants, "hl" and "dl". The former being very similar in pronunciation to the latter when prefixed by "d" as in the case of "Isandhlwana". The "h" does appear to have become silent over the years which presumably was the reason for it being dropped in the written form.

In respect of the King, then 'Cetshwayo' appears to be the accepted form and is how it appears in the 1922 (translated) work by Zulu, Magema M. Fuze. Pronunciation wise, it is interesting to note that the letter 'c' is one of the isiZulu 'click' sounds (a bit like 'tut' in our 'tut tut') while the 'tsh' is a consonant similar to our "ch' in 'church' (the best way I have seen it described). Bearing this in mind, it is perhaps easy to see why the early Europeans, in particular, had difficulty settling on a standard form. However, having said all that, I have seen a copy of the King's signature where he signed himself 'Cetywayo'; indeed, this is how Norris-Newman (and also Moodie) refer to him in contemporary accounts of the AZW.

So, no straightforward answer it seems but at least we all know who, and what, we mean! My brain's hurting now so I'm off for a cup of tea and a lie down. Meantime, hope this is of some help.

U
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:58 pm

Wow!!!! This is well over my head. Sometimes its just good to observe. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:16 am

Umbiki
Im sure that your good lady has a miriad of jobs for you to do around the house.

regards
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:25 am

:lol!: :lol!:
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:05 pm

Springbok9 wrote;

"Im sure that your good lady has a miriad of jobs for you to do around the house."

Absolutely true Springbok9 - am currently under pressure to finish packing for an imminent trip "down under' for Xmas and the New Year. Excess baggage is proving to be a bit of a problem - but think I would feel guilty if I didn't take Mrs U along too! :lol:

Seriously though, as I will be away from the computer for a while, can I just take this opportunity to wish all Forum Members a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I'm relatively new to this Forum but have really enjoyed participating over the past few months. It's been both informative and good fun - so thanks folks.

Have a good one!

Best

U 😕
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:29 pm

Umbiki. Have a great Christmas and an even better New-Year. 😕
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90th

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PostSubject: Cetswayo / Isandlwana    Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:45 pm

Hi Umbiki.
Merry xmas to you and your family , seeing you are heading ' Down Under ' you may need to bring a Brolly !. I cant believe
the amount of rain we have had in the last 2 months , many Rivers in flood at the moment on the East Coast from Queensland
down through Victoria which is a great distance . Best wishes . Where abouts are you heading in this vast country ?.
cheers 90th. 😕 😕
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:03 am

90th
I think he is of to watch some cricket, a secret member of the Barmy Army. I wonder if he is the bloke that dresses in a funny hat and sings " ....the Mighty mighty Eng-a-land."

Umbiki
Have a great xmas mate.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Cetswayo / Isandlwana    Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:09 am

Hi Springbok.
I think we have enough of the Barmy Army here at the moment !. But you couldnt blame him as we are not going well
and I dont see it improving in a hurry !!!! . Mad . U will have a great time no matter where he goes or what he does out ' Here '
cheers 90th.
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:40 pm

Hi Chaps
Presently in a wi fi bar in downtown Kowloon sipping cocktails with a leggy blonde (Mrs U - but cocktails working wonders!) on route for Melbourne tomorrow. No cricket for me unless I Can catch the Melbourne test for a day. But anyway - seen England snatch defeat from the jaws of victory too many times at all sports to get over confident yet! Ha!
Thanks for all your good wishes!
Best
U
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:58 pm

Found these tow spellings, Cetywajo & Ketchwayo.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:08 pm

Here's a new one ( King Chattaweo)
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Well I'm going with Umbiki on the spellings. The original Q is settled then is it?

On the subject of pronounciations, could Umbiki please spell the names for us phonetically, so we can all pronounce them correctly too?

Tasker224

PS - when i was at school, we pronounced Niger as "nij a"; now it seems the BBC has decreed it be pronounced "nee zhair"; a few more examples of the BBC's know it all pronounciations: Newcastle must now be pronounced New CASSSel, the Himalayas as "himaarliers", the capital of Switzerland is now "Baasel", Peking is now Beijing, Bombay/ Mumbai, Baghdad to BACCHHdad, President Ahmedinejad has become "Acchhmedinejad".......need i go on? And before anyone suggests local pronounciation, should we now be calling Paris "Parree",
New Zealand "New Zilland" and Cardiff "Cairdiff"?
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:04 pm

The word “Niger” in the above post is by no means directed in a defamatory way. It is merely for the purpose for which the original topic was posted correct spellings/ and those spellings used in other localities around the world.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:33 pm

Thanks admin - yes - I was obviously referring to the country of Niger on the continent of Africa.
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90th

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PostSubject: Which name is it ????.   Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:10 am

Hi all .
I know we have covered this on the forum before but I was reading ; Natal , Transvaal and Zululand . ( The Substance
Of Two Lectures On The Zulu War ) by W. Hartley . And here is another variant of Isandlwana ........ Ishalwhani ; I havent
come across that version before !.
cheers 90th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:22 am

Here's a new one "Isandwahla"

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Last edited by littlehand on Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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90th

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PostSubject: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana correct spelling .   Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:42 am

Hi littlehand .
Dont wish to sound picky but you left out the ' D ' . Idea .
cheers 90th. Another great photo , thanks for posting them . Idea
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:44 am

Thanks 90th Corrected!!!! Idea
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Cetshwayo / Isandlwana Correct spelling   Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:03 pm

Umbiki wrote:
Hi All

The Zulu language, isiZulu, operates a noun class prefix system so, technically, the correct spelling is 'iSandlwana' (the lower case 'i' being the appropriate prefix in this case). In some cases I have seen the prefix dropped in written translation leaving, simply, 'Sandlwana'.

As regards the question of whether it should properly be "dhl" or "dl" in the middle, and in addition to the 1940s review mentioned by Springbok9 above, I think the confusion is (or rather, was,) probably down to the similarity in form of the isiZulu consonants, "hl" and "dl". The former being very similar in pronunciation to the latter when prefixed by "d" as in the case of "Isandhlwana". The "h" does appear to have become silent over the years which presumably was the reason for it being dropped in the written form.

In respect of the King, then 'Cetshwayo' appears to be the accepted form and is how it appears in the 1922 (translated) work by Zulu, Magema M. Fuze. Pronunciation wise, it is interesting to note that the letter 'c' is one of the isiZulu 'click' sounds (a bit like 'tut' in our 'tut tut') while the 'tsh' is a consonant similar to our "ch' in 'church' (the best way I have seen it described). Bearing this in mind, it is perhaps easy to see why the early Europeans, in particular, had difficulty settling on a standard form. However, having said all that, I have seen a copy of the King's signature where he signed himself 'Cetywayo'; indeed, this is how Norris-Newman (and also Moodie) refer to him in contemporary accounts of the AZW.

So, no straightforward answer it seems but at least we all know who, and what, we mean! My brain's hurting now so I'm off for a cup of tea and a lie down. Meantime, hope this is of some help.

U

Apologies, to Umbiki, the language is isiZulu
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