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 suicide of a trooper at Hlobane

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Younghusband

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PostSubject: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:07 pm

In the brilliant book 'Blood on the Painted Mountain' by Ron Lock, Mossop details the suicide of a companion during the flight from Hlobane.

Do we know who this was? And were there other recorded instances of this occuring?
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:19 am

Mossop says he knew him well, but would not mention his name!
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:18 pm

Quote :
"Mossop asked a man standing next to him, "Can we get down?" "Not a hope," the trooper replied. He then placed the muzzle of his carbine in his mouth and pulled the trigger"

Doe's not say this in my copy.
Quote :
Mossop says he knew him well
.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:20 pm

Hi All
In a book entitled Running the Gauntlet (Memoirs of Adventure) by George Mossop states the following:-

When Mossop reached the top of the route down the steep mountain, he saw a disorganised mob of white men shooting at Zulus, who shot and stabbed at them as they tried to escape. He met a friend, whom he asked if he thought there was any chance of getting away. “’Not a hope!’ the man said just before he blew his brains out.”
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:46 pm

I often thought about Capt Younghusband's situation at the end. Is it fair to assume they knew all was lost, so took the easy way out by charging down, knowing it to be a certain death.
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Younghusband

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:04 pm

Verbal Zulu narrative describes the moment that a british soldier with 'long fair whiskers' running down the hill at Isandlwana after his ammunition had run out - this was thought to be Younghusband

Back to my initial question - and I do not think that this death counts as suicide as what other choice did he have?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:38 pm

Not Suicide Dave. Younghusband made the right decision with his gallant charge. We will never know how many of the enemy were killed during this charge but I bet they took quite a few with them. The Zulus still had firearms so rather than just standing there waiting to be shot, he and his men died like hero’s fighting the enemy.
(Not one of the numbers running towards fugitive trail)

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90th

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PostSubject: Suicides during the zulu war    Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:35 am

Hi all .
Fairly certain this has been covered previously . Ian Knights ' Companion To The Zulu War ' has more instances of
suicides . At Eshowe Pvt . W. Knee 99th Regt on the 21st Feb left the camp , he had been ill for some time , weaved his
way through the perimeter lines and was found face down in the stream the following morning . His death was listed as suicide
as there was no evidence that the zulu had killed him . Sgt Stratton 2 / 24th had killed himself in a skirmish on the Cape Frontier
6 mths before the Regt marched to zululand . This happened as he appeared cheerful to his men , and in the midst of a desultory
fire fight with the Xhosa in which he was at little obvious risk - He had suddenly called out a brief farewell then blew his brains out
with his rifle ! . Another instance an un-named Pvt of the 99th was in hospital at Ft Pearson , suffering from fever , when on the 13th
March he suddenly dragged himself out of his sick bed , ran down the hill top towards a steep cliff which dropped down to the
Thukela river - and promptly threw himself off . Lt. Robert D'Ombrain 1 / 1st NNC shot himself on the 8th April 79 near Fort Cherry
at Kranskop , above the Middle Drift . D'Ombrain reported to the Forts medical officer on the 6th April suffering from the effects
of a hangover . He was prescribed an appropriate remedy and retired to his tent . Over the next two days he complained of feeling
ill , friends said he spent most of his time in bed , smoking . He couldnt stomach solid foods , he seemed to be verging on Paranoia
was restless and fretful . He was also convinced the men of his regt were talking about him in isiZulu a language he didnt understand
He warned one visitor that ' They are Coming ' and to another ' There was only One Woman who had threatened him ' both comments were regarded as being the product of incipient fever . He had shot himself with a M.H , he placed the barrel in his mouth
, wedged a riding crop across the trigger , then pulled it with his foot . Ian knight goes on to say ' It may well be that a number of men
did commit suicide at Isandlwana , and their stories are simply not recorded ' . Ian says - However there were a significant number
of self inflicted deaths among the irregular corps at Hlobane . Trumpeter Reilly of the Border Horse , dismounted from his exhausted
horse , fired several shots at the enemy from close range , then killed himself . The zulu induna , Sitshitshili KaMnqandi saw one man ' as he approached turning his carbine and shooting himself '. Another most famous case maybe Cecil D'arcy VC F.L.Horse.
He apparantly wandered off during the night from a friends place and was found 28th Dec 1881 some 4 mths later . his death was
attributed to exposure . More details on these items are on pages 193 - 196 .
cheers 90th 😕
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:04 am

Here's an interesting way out!!

"How else can we specify the degree of alarm engendered by news of Isandlwana and the possibility of a massive break-through by the Zulu army? The sappers of 5 Field Company, Royal Engineers, were still moving up to the front. They marched from Greytown on 21 January, and had gone only a few kilometres further on the 22nd 'when we met a mounted messenger with a note, "Push on for Mooi River; rumours of a reverse". That was all we could learn. Push on we did, we almost ran. We got to Mooi River about one. All we could learn there was that the camp had been captured, and every man was cut off'. This party of sappers was only 60 strong and faced an unpleasant dilemma: should they go back to Greytown, which they thought would be attacked, or should they dig in where they were? 

"Corporal Howe gives the answer: 'About a hundred yards [90 metres] from the river where we had first crossed stood the house of a settler. We took possession of this. Along one side and down towards the river we drew up the wagons in line. On the other two sides we threw up a shelter trench. We were hard at work until dusk, when we broke our fast. At night we turned into the trenches ... The eyes were coming out of our heads with trying to pierce the gloom. About twelve a Dutchman came in, and said he had seen the enemy. Hour after hour we stood, but no enemy. The least noise brought the rifle to the ready. We all knew we had to deal with an enemy who did not know what mercy was, and should have to fight to the bitter end. I took one cartridge and put it in my breast, determining if it came to the worst to blow out my own brains rather than fall into their hands. At last day broke, and never did we welcome it with such joy"
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90th

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PostSubject: Suicide Of A Trooper At Hlobane    Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:43 am

Hi 24th .
Can you tell us form where you found this article ?. If you remember , always try to put the source with these postings .
Cheers 90th.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:45 pm

Dave wrote:
I often thought about Capt Younghusband's situation at the end. Is it fair to assume they knew all was lost, so took the easy way out by charging down, knowing it to be a certain death.

Hardly "the easy way out."
The easy way out would have been suicide, and even if Younghusband and his men had taken their own lives, I personally, would not think any less of them given the situation in which they found themselves in at the end.
They couldn't have died more heroically. Salute
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:57 pm

The Red Soldier
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:12 am

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:06 pm

It seems then that there were 3 recorded cases of suicide at Hlobane.
No doubt, rather than accepting the horror of the fate that was coming to them, they saved the last bullet for themselves and good on them. Salute
Can't blame them for that. In NI as a trooper and a medic, in Iraq and the Afghan, I for one was certain in my own mind what I would do, if ever it came to the point of being captured.
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:39 am

Why suicide? Since the Zulus did not make prisoners.

The colonials did not know?

Cheers

Pascal
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:25 pm

Because a shot to the head, would be quicker than be stabbed multiple times and having your stomach slit open, or worse!!
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:54 pm

Worse? And what is that from the Zulu? They do nothing other and only on cadavers!
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:54 pm

Considering the circumstances in which these soldiers ended their own lives. Can it really be classified as suicide. Or should it be KIA.
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:15 pm

No ! Say they were poorly informed about the Zulu traditions ...
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:29 pm

Then consider the saying. " A fate worse than death"
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:42 pm

Quote :
Subject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane Today at 4:15 pm
No ! Say they were poorly informed about the Zulu traditions ...

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:11 pm

For 24 th : Why suicide? Since the Zulus did not make prisoners.

For Ray63 :Yes, they imagine the horrors worse than death ... Heavy mistake ...
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:11 pm

Ray63 wrote:
Considering the circumstances in which these soldiers ended their own lives. Can it really be classified as suicide. Or should it be KIA.

Suicide is suicide - killing oneself. No other word for it.
Is it understandable under certain circumstances? Yes.
Is it wrong, or cowardly? No.
In certain circumstances it is even prudent, the wise thing to do.
Even honourable. Japanese soldiers were encouraged to take their own lives over being captured.
We have all heard of the cyanide capsule, or suicide pill.
It could be considered a tactically correct form of self sacrifice to take one's own life, rather than being captured, tortured and ultimately compromising a mission and the safety of others.
It is easy for armchair Generals who have done nothing riskier than leave their car on a double yellow line for a few minutes, to sit and judge the actions of brave men who have given all that they have got to give.
Braver and better men than they, who ultimately could see no alternative, other than to sacrifice their own life in the service of their Queen, country, family and comrades.
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:12 pm

It's Probaly me..

Quote :
For 24 th : Why suicide? Since the Zulus did not make prisoners.

Pascal what do you mean by this..?

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:50 am

Tasker wrote (in red):

Suicide is understandable under some circonstances? Yes.

Yes in front of the Zulus, who did not practice torture (only Grandier , a heros , was captured and roughed up a bit)

For the post of 24 th the Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:42 pm : It's generally the fear of torture that encourages soldiers suicide on a battlefield ...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:33 pm

Pascal, the average soldier of the 24th in 1879 was not as well read on Zulu customs, as you are today.
In fact, most likely, he couldn't read at all.
What he learned, he learned by listening to the old sweats around the camp fire.
Imagine the stories and rumours of horror that were told around those camp fires Pascal, both pre and post iSandlwana!
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:52 pm

Yeah, that's what I was saying, this is less well inform on the Zulu traditions , the most fragile and naive who committed suicide ...

When I was in the army we told the same crap on the abuse suffered marsouins captured by Chadian allies of Kadafi...

Cheers

Pascal
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:47 pm

Do you not think the boar's would have enlighten them on the ways of the Zulu's
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:53 am

Yes if he had a good lantern Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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John

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:51 am

The British didn't want to know.
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:27 am

Well, they should have !
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:48 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:


the most fragile and naive who committed suicide ...


Pascal, we need to disagree here.
Sadly, I have known and know of too many brave, decent, principled, strong service men who have taken their own lives. Fragile and naiive, they were not.
It is obvious that you never faced any real danger, particularly the danger of falling into enemy hands (who may or may not be signed up to the Geneva Conventions) when you were in the army, or seen any sights that may have caused you to develop combat stress.
(If you had, you would know it was not your place to criticise other mens' decisions in these matters, whatever your own opinion).
As such, you are not entitled to judge those that have and you are entirely wrong to presume that you can do so.

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Tasker

Those who were fighting the Pathans knew very well they might in in case of capture.

Those who were fighting the Zulus should have known they were not prisoners with the zulus.

So why suicide on the battlefield if there is no risk of capture and torture ?

The only thing that could British fighters, it was a glorious death in battle, whether in victory or a defeat that did not change anything for them...

Besides, I think there would have been many more suicides among the British fighters if the Zulus would have had the reputation of Pathans or Native America ...No ?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:07 pm

The Zulus them at least do not commit suicide ...

What a difference with their opponents ...

They left massacre, without fear, by their pursuers when they could no longer fight, they were so exhausted ...

What a difference with their opponents ...
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:25 pm

Quote :
So why suicide on the battlefield if there is no risk of capture and torture ?

"Trooper Pearce and Raubenheim, both had been disembowelled, but Raubenheim had died a painful death. He’d been scalped, and his genitals, nose and right hand had been cut off."

ROBERT GERRARD FRGS.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:57 pm

If I recall, wasn't he heard screaming for most of the night. And wasn't it the Zulu women who carried out the evil deed..
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:33 am

Yes, but this is exceptional case, not a habit.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:54 am

A lovely little habit the Zulus enjoyed was to drive sharpened sticks up a prisoners annus, one after another till he died. Usually took quite a while to die with I should imagine all the usual screaming.
I would have suspicions that this is how Raubenheim would have died with the amputations occuring afterwards for 'muti'. If either his genitals or hand had been cut off he wouldnt have suvived very long.

Enjoy your breakfasts.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:20 pm

click on link bottom of page. Prisoner of war!!!

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:26 pm

A more graphic look at this Impalement,may help to get the point across.


Death by Impalement
Who uses (used) it – which national or cultural groups
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photo posted by littlehand in another topic.


"Impalement was used in the early civilizations of the Ancient Near East, ancient Rome, and frequently in the middle ages in Asia and Europe. It was used particularly in the Ottoman Empire, Poland, Sweden, and South Africa (Zulu tribes). Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) and Ivan the Terrible (Russian) are the most infamous users of impalement.
Is it in use anywhere in the world today? If not, when was it a major form of execution?

Its use is very uncommon if not nonexistent anywhere today. It was a major form of execution in ancient civilizations through the 18th century or so.
Was it used very often, or was it rare?

This method of punishment was used often during the time period in which it was popular.
How did it work? About how long did it take?

“Impalement as a method of torture and execution involves a person being pierced with a long stake. The penetration could be through the sides, through the rectum, through the vagina, or through the mouth. This method leads to a painful death, sometimes taking days. The stake would often be planted in the ground, leaving the impaled person suspended to die.

In some forms of impalement, the stake would be inserted so as to avoid immediate death, and would function as a plug to prevent blood loss. After preparation of the victim, perhaps including public torture and rape, the victim was stripped and an incision was made in the perineum between the genitals and rectum. A stout pole with a blunt end was inserted. A blunt end would push vital organs to the side, greatly slowing death.

The pole would often come out of the body at the top of the sternum and be placed against the lower jaw so that the victim would not slide farther down the pole. Often, the victim was hoisted into the air after partial impalement. Gravity and the victim’s own struggles would cause them to slide down the pole.”

Depending on the position of the stake, this method could be a very slow excruciating death. It could often take days for death to occur if major organs were not pierced.
Why was this method developed?

This method was developed for several reasons. Some of these reasons include shock value, extreme pain on part of victim, materials available (i.e. wooden stakes), and its profound message to the public.
If this method is not used much any more, why not? What problems were found with it?

This method would be considered barbaric by today’s standards. Not only is it incredibly inhumane in the sense of incredible pain and denial of human dignity, but it is a wholly gruesome spectacle to behold. Therefore people in most cultures would not like to witness or partake in impalement".
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:48 pm

Quote :
"But the most potent of all these medicines was human flesh, and in the war of 1879, for instance, a white man O.E. Neal, was killed by the Zulus, and parts of his body were used for 'doctoring' the army"

Source:Military History Journal Vol 4 No 4 - Zulu War Centenary Issue - January 1979
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:33 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:


So why suicide on the battlefield if there is no risk of capture and torture ?


Pascal, I am sure you don't read the posts which people leave in reply to yours. Now you are going round in cirlcles again.
When your questions have been answered by members - in this thread and other threads - you come back and ask all the same questions, all over again.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:30 pm

So what's it to be. The Bullet or the Zulu's Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:29 am

Bonaparte too, impale 5000 Arabs in his campaign in Egypt and many others in Syria in 1798 ...
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:53 am

Its all a bit of a pain in the a**e Not getting involved
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:14 am

I just said this, for all those who admire Bonaparte Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:47 pm

scratch

I'm out.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:50 pm

No
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:59 am

The pal, Napoleon Bonaparte used during the Egyptian Campaign.

Napoleon Bonaparte used during the Egyptian campaign.

The impalement can perform a large number of people in a small space and without requiring complex equipment.

Soleyman El-Halaby (or Soliman) was a Syrian called Muslim fanatic who murdered General Kléber during the Egyptian campaign June 14, 1800.

Scripts is described in these terms by Claude Desprez, witnessed the facts:

The man was condemned by the French council of war, to have the hands to be impaled and burned alive.

The executioner Barthèlemy lay on his stomach Soliman, drew a knife from his pocket, gave him the foundation a large incision, approached the end of his pal and stuck with a mallet.

Then he tied her arms and legs of the patient, rose into the air and stared at the pal into a prepared hole.

Soliman lived for four hours, and he had lived longer if, during the absence of Barthèlemy a soldier had given him to drink the moment he died.


So those who admire, what do you think of your dear Bonaparte?

Cheers

Pascal

Le pal, Napoléon Bonaparte l'utilise au cours de la Campagne d'Egypte.

Napoléon Bonaparte l'utilise au cours de la campagne d'Égypte.

L'empalement permet d'exécuter un nombre important de personnes en un espace restreint et sans nécessiter un matériel complexe.

Soleyman el-Halaby (ou Soliman) était un Syrien qualifié de fanatique musulman ayant assassiné le général Kléber lors de la campagne d'Égypte le 14 juin 1800.

Son exécution est décrite en ces termes par Claude Desprez, témoin des faits :

L'homme fut condamné, par le conseil de guerre français, à avoir les poings brûlés puis à être empalé vif.

Le bourreau Barthèlemy coucha sur le ventre Soliman, tira un couteau de sa poche, lui fit au fondement une large incision, en approcha le bout de son pal et l'enfonça à coups de maillet.

Puis il lia les bras et les jambes du patient, l'éleva en l'air et fixa le pal dans un trou préparé.

Soliman vécut encore durant quatre heures, et il eut vécu plus si, durant l'absence de Barthèlemy un soldat ne lui eut donné à boire : à l'instant même il expira.

Alors ceux qui l'admire , vous en pensez quoi de votre cher Bonaparte ?


Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: suicide of a trooper at Hlobane   Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:21 am

Off topic... Don\'t agree
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