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 Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:34 am

Chelmsford's orders to Col. Pulleine as stated by Clery at the Court of Enquiry. "You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn (commander of the 24th); Draw in your camp or your line of defense while the force is out; also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly, but keep your cavalry videttes still far advanced."

Now does that sound like an order to skirmish in the open field a few miles from the camp.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:18 am

CTSG
Nope very definitly it doesnt. But, and its a big but. You cant claim that the letter Chelmsford/Durnford gave his commanders freedom of choice and then reverse it. If Pulleine had freedom of choice then he had ever right to disperse the troops.
One small point Chelmsford didnt even know untill afterwards that orders had been issued to Pulleine. He was a pretty relieved guy when Clery told him.

Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:28 am

Pulliene did disperse the men how he thought fit, Consequencely they died.

Quote :
One small point Chelmsford didnt even know untill afterwards that orders had been issued to Pulleine. He was a pretty relieved guy when Clery told him.

If this is the case, then this even more so takes The Good Lord Chelmsford out of the frame.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 am

Possibly, but does show his lack of concern for the camp. Over confidence or shear arrogance, take your pick.

IF he was that confident he was going to pursue the main impi, remember he only had Dartnells word on it, then why would Pulleine be any different. His boss was of to thrash the savages, just because there were a few more charging round the heights, so what. The boss had it all in hand.

Quide Mea Vexari ( with apologise to Asterix ).

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:59 am

Possibly because there had been no sightings of consequence around the camp, Dartnell how ever had come across them, and was prepaired to do battle, which was what the whole invasion was about. They were all on their way to the Ulundi.

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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:05 am

Should the responsibility not fall to Chelmsford as he was the commarnder of the forces. The buck should stop with him.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:35 am

Saying that Chelmsford was in overall command so the responsibility must be his, is nonsense; your argument would then follow up the chain of command to the commander-in-chief in London, the Duke of Cambridge and, to drag on this ridiculous argument, to Queen victoria herself.

The diaster lays with the man in command on the spot - and that was Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:32 am

No I dont believe it is nonsense.
Chelmsford had a duty to the men under his command, ostensibly the invading army, but he had usurped Glyn as head of the column therefore the safety and well being of that column was his. He did not pass on any command to those he left behind. That was done by a relativly junior officer in Clery acting at his own behest with his own ideas.
This whole episode is fraught with bad communications, from Chelmsford to Durnford, to Pulleine even down onto the coast with Pearson. Chelmsford has to accept responsibility for that lack of/poor communication

Chelmsford cannot be castigated for splitting his force, there was no alternative if he was to achieve his objective. I dont believe the camp could have been fortified in any significant manner so again he cant be blamed.

In passing orders/instructions and clarifying his purpose, he was a dismal failure. And should be castigated.

Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:52 pm

Quote :
Chelmsford cannot be castigated for splitting his force, there was no alternative if he was to achieve his objective. I dont believe the camp could have been fortified in any significant manner so again he cant be blamed.

Good god!!, cough, splutter!!!!! Am I seeing things. Shocked scratch Salute :lol: :lol:

Springbok " God loves a sinner turned.

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:20 pm

CTSG
Take more water with it. :evil:
Im consistant, ive been saying for years that IF blame was to be thrown the biggest chunk should be at Dartnell. It was his disobedience of orders that caused him to camp out. He misread the force he was opposing and again it was he who thought he could take on the main zulu army with his rag tag collection of the NNC. Yet again when the NNC proved totally unreliable it was him who squeeled for help. If non of that had happened the camp would have faced up to the main army with a full defensive capability.

Cheers Salute

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90th

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PostSubject: Chelmesford , Pulleine & Durnford    Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:24 pm

Hi Littlehand .
:lol: A bit rich I think attempting to throw in the Duke and Q.Victoria as they didnt have any idea that Chelmesford and Frere would
take it upon themselves to start the war; which they were told to avoid at all costs !!!. Shocked Shocked Shocked . Chelmesford has no doubt some blame in the whole fiasco , but as I've said , there are others and Dartnell is among them . Chelmesford , as Springbok has mentioned , probably didnt have a choice when he split his command , he needed to back Dartnell , much in the same way Durnford attempted to back Chelmesford by leaving the camp , in an attempt to stop the zulus who he thought may try to cut of Chelmesford and his force from the camp . Salute
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:44 pm

Quote :
Durnford attempted to back Chelmesford by leaving the camp

Now if we are honest, we don't know that for sure. For all we know, he may have got fed up with Pulliene, and the situation at Isandlwana. And just left only to be forced back by the Zulus. Just a thought.....
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:56 pm

Still some on here believe that Lt Col Pulleine and others at the camp did not think they were liable to be attacked by the Zulus.

"The Zulus is going to tackle us, 40,000 of them, and all tough ones, they say."

Quote - letter of 2038 Private Samuel Walker, G Coy 2/24th

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So, Pulleine did not know, but a private soldier did?
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:04 pm

Tasker

That letter you quote from was written in 1878 Shocked so not sure what your point is ?

Pulleine had been told the 40,000 zulus were off in a diffrent direction and the general had just left to attack them, the reports were coming in of 4,000 Zulus, not 40,000 and those reports were very confusing, one moment they were advancing, the next retiring, then they were in 3 columns, then the columns were splitting up, Pulleine would have been totaly babmuzled by what was going on.



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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Not sure it makes any differents when the letter was written. The lad was just writing home after arriving in SA and was relaying what he had probably been told with regards to the 40,000 Zulus waiting for him. Either way the poor lad died at Isandlwana on the 22nd Jan 1879.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:22 pm

With regards to Dunrford leaving the camp, no matter how you look at or for whatever reason, he was still prepaired to leave the camp, even after receiving an up-date on the situation with the Zulus, he of all people knew only to well the ways of the Zulu military fighting system. I have always been of the opinion that, he left under the pretence of protecting Chelmsfords rear, just as Melville used the colours.


Personal opinion of Isandlwana. There was no commarnder giving orders, all the companies were being looked after but thier own officers, no two companies were working together, most of whom were in the same boat, far from the camp and short of ammuntion. I still believe the comment made by one trooper that " our officer shot himself" holds water. Only one person claimed to have seen Pullienes body, but couldn't remember where it was after. And that story was told by one of the biggest tellers of soldiers stories in the Zulu War. It maybe so that the solder who made that statement regarding "our officer shot himself" wasn't at Isandlwana, but he heard it from somewhere.



Last edited by littlehand on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:26 pm

LH

Browne, Glyn and Mancell make refrence to Pulleine's body, and you realy believe Thomas, who wasn't at isandlwana
and also says the tents were struck and the men formed square that Pulleine shot himself ?

Coghill says he was shot dead, he told Curling, Melvill and Bickley.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:35 pm

DB14, if the letter was written in 1878 it shows that many months before the battle, even a private soldier was aware of the possibility that a large Zulu army might attack.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:39 pm

Now that my friend Tasker, is a very good point. Perhaps this soldier was not of the same mind-set as the other Victorian soldiers, who didn't think they were going to be attacked.. Wink
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:52 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
LH

Browne, Glyn and Mancell make refrence to Pulleine's body, and you realy believe Thomas, who wasn't at isandlwana
and also says the tents were struck and the men formed square that Pulleine shot himself ?

Coghill says he was shot dead, he told Curling, Melvill and Bickley.


"We saw the British soldiers all lying formed up in a square, where they had held their ground till all were slain where they stood."
Archer Secretan.
It is exciting to have these 2 new primary accounts which AHB1872 has discovered to read and quote from!
It does illustrate that it is important not to believe some accounts that support our preconceived ideas and then disbelieve others that don't. All primary accounts need to be considered and not ruled out. That being said, I personally would not put as much trust in the accounts of Browne or Coghill, as I would others.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:56 pm

LH. If it was the case with Durnford, why did he return.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:57 pm

Zulus!!!!
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:01 pm

Tasker

When the bugle called out the retire the companies formed squares.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker

When the bugle called out the retire the companies formed squares.

Beg your pardon, I thought for a moment that you were doubting that square(s) had been formed.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:07 pm

DB the tents wouldn't have been standing, when Thomas arrived, to him they may well have been struck. And I did say although he might not have been there, he may have been told.

And with Coghill saying Pulliene was shot, adds weight to the argument. Mainly because some accounts say the Zulu were walking through the camp stabbing as they went, and by the time the Zulus had reached the camp, I doubt very much they had any ammunition left or found it necessary to use guns.

I'm surprised Brown didn't say he had eaten a Zulu child to survive :lol:
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:11 pm

Squares that was not in Chelmsford's orders, extended lines only. Another order disobeyed by Pulliene. Salute

Perhaps he should have formed squares in the first place....
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:04 am

No squares. Just lines... Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: Chelmesford , Pulleine & Durnford    Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:09 am

Hi Tsker .
Allowing for the speech and education of the period , and hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say ! . '' The zulus is going to tackle us 40,000 of them '' , obviously as you are aware there are many rumours which abound when an army is about to fight a war , Poor Walker wouldnt have any idea he was to be attacked by 20,000 let alone 40,000 , as he states they dont fight in the open !!. All those in the army at the time in SA Knew there was a big chance that they'd be tackling the zulu at some stage , but that is a long way from thinking you'd actually be facing 40,000 or 20,000 for that matter , when Walker states they won't fight openly . Hope that makes sense , its difficult to put into words . :lol:
Cheers 90th. .
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:50 am

"babmuzled" - i love that word ! A cross between bamboozled and puzzled - sums it up quite nicely .
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:39 am

Quote :
90th its difficult to put into words
Not if you think about it.

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.
Each man that’s in the side that’s in goes out, and when he’s out he comes in and the next man goes in until he’s out.
When they are all out, the side that’s out comes in and the side that’s been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.
Sometimes you get men still in and not out.
When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.
There are two men called Pulliene & Durnford who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.
When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, . Those that were out attack those that were in. And those in didn't tknow when they would be attack. Thsts it the end of the Battle. Simple...

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90th

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PostSubject: Chelmesford , Pulleine & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:48 am

Hi Littlehand .
:lol: :lol: :lol: scratch scratch scratch , I'm afraid Isandlwana ' just wasnt cricket ' old boy !. :lol: :lol:
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:01 am

Can't make any sense of that. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:03 am

Yes , its simple . :lol:
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PostSubject: Chelmsford, Pulleine, & Durnford.   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:09 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice one LH.

It's easy when you know isn't it Very Happy

I have "the game of cricket " Tea Towel on the wall in the kitchen, it does make people laugh when they read it.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:13 am

Rolling Eyes

Tasker

Thomas Thomas says the tents were struck the men formed a square round the ammo waggons and held the zulus off for over 2 hours then durnford arrived and ordered the men to advance and that the colonel in command killed himself.

Thomas was not at Isandlwana, there for nothing he says can be trusted, the tents weren't struck and the men didn't
form a square round the ammo waggons and hold the Zulus off for 2 hours before Durnford ordered an advance. As for Pulleine killing himself there's absolutly no evidence that happened.

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:37 am

Thomas Thomas from Ystafaan has been discredited for the last 130 years, no reason to give him any airtime, he was a liar then and his memory gives proof to that. :evil: :sleep:

LH. Hmmmm Is that possibly the reason English cricket .................................... yes well. :lol: :lol:

Salute
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PostSubject: Chelmsford, Pulleine, & Durnford.   Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:57 pm

LH.

The reason why Col Durnford left the camp was because of reports of a large body of Zulus heading in the direction of Chelmsford. Don't forget that he was in command of an independent column not the camp, and he didn't really have much option other than to try to find out where this large body of Zulus were heading in an effort to protect his generals flank. If these Zulus had been heading towards Chelmsford to attack him and Durnford had not tried to protect him, he would have been guilty of neglection of duty, he had to try to find out where the Zulus were going in order to protect Chelmsfords flank.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:24 pm

This is how a i see it. Durnford arrived in camp, arranged for the watering of horses ect. Sent out two troops to recon the ridge area, addressed the seniority question, assessed the tactical position, eaten lunch, and had made up his mind what was the correct course of action and left to accomplish it, all in under an hour. His parting words to Pulleine were that he expected the 1/24th to support him if he ran into trouble.

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PostSubject: Chelmsford, Pulleine, & Durnford.   Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:02 am

Hi LH.

Yes, men were sent out on recon, and also men were sent up on iSandlwana hill, it was from here that the report of a large body of Zulus heading in the direction of Chelmsford came. Durnford asked Pulleine to lend him two companies of the 24th, however, Pulleine refused, so Durnford said that he would expect support if he ran into trouble. I think that what Durnford had in mind was to try to head off the Zulus and turn them back away from Chelmsford's direction so that the rocket battery could open fire on them with the support of the NNC who accompanied the battery, then if the Zulus headed towards the battery, they could in turn fall back behind the two companies of the 24th and all make a fighting withdrawel back to the camp. But with Pulleine refusing to lend Durnford the two companies of the 24th these plans were scuppered, and the rocket battery was left high and dry when they ran into a Zulu ambush and the NNC fled leaving the battery to its fate. No matter how we look at it, Durnford had to act when the report came in of a large body of Zulus heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he had to try to find out where they were going, in an effort to protect his generals flank.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:40 pm

Good point, but there were many accounts, that say the enermy were advancing on the camp. And the running battle between the Zulus and the NNH sould have started alarm bells ringing.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:00 pm

Durnford was told to go to Isandlwana, to reinforce or strengthen the camp, doesn't matter which, both are the same. He was not told to leave the camp, If the Zulus had attacked The Good Lord Chelmsford's coloum, Durnford would have had the disputed order on him, that would have cleared him of any action against him, for not going to Chelmsford aid. It doesn't matter if Durnford was acting independently of his own commard, he was still told to go to Isandlwana. It was not his decision to make wether he should stay or leave.There are no excuses for disobeying a simple order, and weaking the camp by doing so. In the case at Isandlwana he was paid to do, not think.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:20 pm

I could be wrong Question I cannot find anything from any of the accounts left regarding the Battle of Isandlwana, that confirms that Durnford left the camp to protect Chelmsford rear.
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PostSubject: Chelmsford, Pulleine, & Durnford.   Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:44 am

CTSG.

The original order to Col Durnford was;

"You are to march to the camp at once with all the force you have with you of No2 column. Major Bengough's Battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift as ordered yesterday, 2/24th, artillery, and mounted men with the General and Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about ten miles distant"

No mention here of taking command or reinforce or strengthen the camp.

You often use a quote by Chelmsford that goes something like, "I would expect commanders of independent columns to disobey orders if the situation called for it". Well, the situation had changed quite a lot since the departure of Chelmsford, and Pulleine had not done much about it, so when Durnford arrived at the camp he realised that things needed seeing to, and sent scouts out to try to find out what was going on, when he got the report of Zulus moving in the direction of Chelmsford, he acted as any good independent column commander would do, and went to find out where these Zulus were going.

So he was not disobeying any orders whatsoever, he was acting on his own initiative by using his common sense, and trying to find out where the Zulus where heading, just in case they were making an attempt to attack Chelmsford.
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PostSubject: Chelmsford, Pulleine, & Durnford.   Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:54 am

Hi John.

If you have got "Zulu Victory" by Lock and Quantrill, look on page 181, where it says that "Durnford decided to follow up the 'retiring enemy', whom he believed might well be on their way to attack Chelmsford". There are also other mentions of this in other books I have read on this subject (just can't remember the titles off hand), but it was Durnfords intention to try to find out where the Zulus were going, just in case they were trying to outflank Chelmsford.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:48 am

Hi Martin.

Clery states.

"I went to Colonel Pulleine's tent just before leaving camp to ascertain that he had got these instructions, and I again repeated them verbally to him. To the best of my memory, I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it.

"2nd Evidence.—Colonel Glyn, C.B., states: From the time the column under my command crossed the border I was in the habit of receiving instructions from the Lieutenant-General Commanding as to the movements of the column, and I accompanied him on most of the patrols and reconnaissances carried out by him. I corroborate Major Clery's statement"
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:00 am

The Good Lord Chelmsfords observations. Which I think, most of us agree with.

"From the statements made to the Court, it may be gathered that the cause of the reverse suffered at Isandhlwana (sic) was that Col. Durnford, as senior officer, overruled the orders which Lt. Col. Pulleine had received to defend the camp, and directed that the troops should be moved into the open, in support of the Native Contingent which he had brought up and which was engaging the enemy”. Salute

That my friends is just what happen....
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:22 am

Pretty fare comment..............as far as it goes. However Durnford had left the camp when Mostyn was sent onto the ridge. Pulleines decision.
Also Chelmsford makes no mention of the lack of orders given to Pulleine by himself ( he only found out that Clery had sent instructions much much later). So a touch disingenuose from Chelmsford and dont forget he was firmly in survival mode, or to get technical, " cover my backside with both hands and anything else available."

That statement got him hauled over the coals ( Read Hansard) by his peers being based on an extremely limited court of enquirys frame of reference.

Sorry CTSG you aint getting your man of that easily. :lol: his communication was pathetic. For further evidence of that look at the extreme c**k up in the hills the next day, troops splattered every where, no one knew what the others were doing. And he disapeared into the valleys for a couple of hours. Mind you I do believe he organised a pretty damn good al fresco breakfast for the syncophant brigade. :lol: Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:01 pm

John
Read Cochranes statement to the Court of Enquiry, its mentioned there pretty emphatically.

Cheers
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:20 pm

John

Read Jabez Molife's account, Durnford make a comment to him about leaving the camp to protect Chelsmford.
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PostSubject: Re: Chelmsford, Pulline. & Durnford   Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:36 pm

To be honest it really doesn't matter who Durnford told what he intended or didn't intend to do. The people he told, didnt give him his Orders.
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