Soldier's bones found at Isandlwana battlefield?

Subject: awaiting reply Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:16 am

hi s.d.

thanks for looking into my query , looking forward to it being solved.

cheers 90th.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

There were others in the General Staff at Isandlwana, such as Colour Sergeant George Mabin, who survived the battle.
Still trying to trace the others.

S.D

Subject: george mabin Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:49 pm

hi s.d.

celia green from the royal regt wales says in the story written on the telegraph uk website that MABIN survived isandlwana but this is INCORRECT , he was at RORKES DRIFT !!. His account at rorkes drift is as follows...." i was sitting at my office tent door . spalding had gone to helpmakaar that morning to chase up the reinforcements , we didnt expect any trouble at the station . just after 3pm a man hatless and bootless man rode up on an exhausted horse .he halted at the tent ,and i asked what had happened he exclaimed " good god , the camp is taken and there coming on here " mabin took the bearer of the news to bromhead. he goes on about how they had just finished preparations when the zulus appeared..... mabin says " the first man i ever killed in my life was a big zulu carrying an assegai and shield as he advanced he took cover behind anything that presented itself, he dropped behind a rock prior to making another advance , when i covered the rock with my rifle , and as he rose to come on again i pulled the trigger, and he leapt at least five foot in the air and dropped dead "

cheers 90th.

Subject: mabin. Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:58 pm

hi s.d.

forgot to add mabin was known as the fighting clerk after R.D., my previous post was only a portion of what he tells in the book , which is " RORKES DRIFT by THOSE WHO WERE THERE "

cheers 90th.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

There seems to be some doubt’s cast on the identification process of Sgt Keane.
Someone posted the link above, which is of a button similar to the one found. So is the button from the remains of Sgt Keane, or did it belong to someone else.

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Hi John.

n April Amafa, confirmed that remains of a British Soldier had been found along with a Regimental Button and part of a spur.

It was then announce that it may be possible to identify the individual found.

John Young was asked to identify the regimental button, not the individual. John Young Identified the Button as belonging to the General Staff Corps, He then confirmed that the only person who would have been wearing that particular button on his uniform on that day at Isandlwana was Colour Sgt Keane.

So the logical conclusion being, that it is Sgt Keane.

We should be congratulating
Amafa, Peter Quantrill and John Young for the excellent work they have done.

I suspect there’s a bit of the green eyed monster lurking about.

So on is half of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thank you for bringing this historical event to us.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

But they have already made one mistake, by saying the person in the photo was Keane. So it not looking good at the moment.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

90th. You right he was at Rorkes Drift, not Isandlwana. Thanks for pointing that out.

S.D

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Pete. Going by your last post. I take it you believe it is, Sgt Kean Staff Clerk to Crealock, But John has a point with regards to the Photo. All a bit quick don't you think.

I made the mistake with MABIN. So we all make mistakes.
S.D

Hi S.D

Amafa, have jumped the gun regarding the photo and the age of Sgt Keane. Nothing positive until DNA! But for now we have no reason to doubt that the findings aren’t correct, because of the few that doubt the evidence provided so far. Like I said in my post. (The Green Eyed Monster) The AZW is a close community, and you will always have those that are the envy of others.

So lets wait and see what the DNA Provides.
:)

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Pete. I see what your saying. But why did John Young issue Amafa with the Photograph, if it was not Keane.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Good Call John. Why would you provide a photo if it was not of Keane.

S.D

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

S.D. Thats just my point. scratch

Gentleman. The photo was used purely for identification of the insignia relating to the regiment. It is a photo of an unidentified individual from John Young’s Private Collection.

For some unknown reason, Amafa releasted the Photo along with the story. Zulu war hero finally named after 130 years after being identified by tunic button. Therefore readers were led to believe it was a photo of Sgt Keane.

I hope that has cleared up the confusion of the photo..

I'm tired now. Good Night. Thanks for your posts. Keep it going. Wink

Subject: dna testing Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:22 am

hi pete,
i agree with you , we cant really be certain , until we can find descendants of keane ( hope they can be traced). and
the proper identifying processes have been undertaken. i wonder if keane can be researched through his enlistment papers ?, they will be stored in the national archives at kew. i have had my medals researched, i cant see why this couldnt be done. if anybody knows , how to go about it ??. not wanting to pass the buck , this may be right up " 1879 graves" alley. as it isnt cheap to hire researchers . i know he is busy , lets wait and see , or maybe a guest may have an idea " how to go about it ".

cheers 90th :)

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

I have done a cross reference relating to Col Sgt Keane from Sons of England by Julian Whybra. It does show the only person present at Isandhlwana on that day the 22nd Jan 1879 from the General Staffs Corps, was Keane.

Another problem.

As anyone got a copy of the Noble 24th by Norman Holme, I have been through my copy by cannot find any mention of Col Sgt Keane. It might be me, so if you have, what page his he on. There is a J. Keane but he is listed as a private.

S.D

PS. Pete now I understand the photo question. Thanks.

And before I forget the only other Member of the General Staff Corps I can find is Colour Sergeant George Mabin, who as we know now was at Rorkes Drift.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

S.D I have a copy, I will go through it later. With regards to others serving in the General Service Corps. I to can only find two. Keane and Mabin.

Came across this.

" Rob Caskie, principal lecturer at her Fugitives' Drift Lodge, said that further work was necessary.

Other soldiers from the general staff were present at the battle, he pointed out, and the body could belong to one man and the button another.

"These men were desperately fleeing for their lives," he said. "It was a desperate, desperate afternoon.

"It's four miles along Fugitives Trail from the battlefield to the river and they were being killed all the while. As the men fled they were trying to makes themselves as light as possible, ripping off their jackets. Buttons would fly off."

WHO WERE THESE OTHER SOLDIERS from the General Service Corps Caskie is talking about.

Quote :: As anyone got a copy of the Noble 24th by Norman Holme, I have been through my copy by cannot find any mention of Col Sgt Keane. It might be me, so if you have, what page his he on. There is a J. Keane but he is listed as a private.

S.D

The Noble 24th. By Norman Holme. The book is about the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, no-one else, no-one more.

From someone who knows..

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

I suppose the title gives it away. The Noble 24th. Thanks for that Pete. I guest that’s why I couldn’t find him.
Well that’s two mistakes this week. Lets hope there’s not a third.

S.D
Sad

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

I believe this fellow was a member of the General Staff Corps during the Zulu War
Interpreter W. Drummond - Missing at Ulundi 4 July 1879.

What do you think they mean Missing.

Subject: general staff query. Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:05 am

hi all,

went through the noble 24th , no mention of KEANE or GENERAL STAFF, went through CASUALTY ROLL FOR THE ZULU AND BASUTO WARS SOUTH AFRICA 1877-1879 by I.T. TAVENDER. on page 21

STAFF

INTERPRETER. DRUMMOND, HON. W. - MISSING AT ULUNDI 4/7/79
COLOUR SERGEANT. KEANE, M.C. - KILLED IN ACTION AT ISANDLWANA 22/1/79.

Subject: DRUMMOND. Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:59 am

hi john,
this from chelmsfords official account of the battle of ulundi.

I regret to state that ,in addition to those killed and wounded , the HON.W DRUMMOND. ( in charge of my intelligence department ) is reported missing , it appears he was last seen riding alone near ulundi , at a time when a considerable
number of zulus were still hovering about. page 325 IN ZULULAND with the british throughout the war of 1879. by
NORRIS- NEWMAN.

and this from REDCOATS AND ZULUS , EDITED BY A. GREAVES. this account of drummond by I. KNIGHT.
as spoken by MELTON PRIOR. " and chelmsford gave his officers permission to ride over to ulundi itself. LORD BERESFORD, true to his reputation as a sportsman, was the first into the homestead, and became known as " ulundi beresford " in consequence. the race produced a last tragedy of the day , DRUMMOND was carried off when his horse became uncontrollable, and was never seen alive again, his body was FOUND months later. he had apparently ridden into a party of fleeing zulus , and been killed..page 214.

cheers 90th

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Thanks 90th. I just could not see how, someone could be seen as missing in action at Ulundi.

Subject: englands sons Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:02 pm

hi sd,
can you tell me the contents of WHYBRAS , ENGLANDS SONS 52 pages ISBN 1873058101, looking to purchase it.
does he have another book called NEW SURVIVORS OF ISANDLWANA 6TH EDITION ENGLANDS SONS 88 PAGES. i cant find an isbn for the second one , or are they the "SAME BOOK". hope this makes sense !!!.
how did you go with my query concerning....... general staff corps and army service corps ,are they one in the same ??.

cheers 90th

90th

Quote :: general staff corps and army service corps ,are they one in the same ??.

The answer appears to be on the Non-Members forum. Which is a good thing because I was not sure about this myself.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

So,does this mean there was only two General Staff Corps. Keane and Mabin. Because I cant find any others. In which case the identification of the button must be bang on the nail. Because Mabin was at Rorke’s Drift.

PS.Is there any logical reason why nobody can find anything on Keane?

24th your last post, good point. But when you think about it, Keane was never mentioned until this discovery; I supposed he was nothing of interest to anyone. But now he has hit the headlines worldwide. And that’s what I like about History. There he lay undiscovered for 130 years, and then one day he is found, and with in weeks with the help of people like Peter Quantrill, John Young he was given a name.

But was so annoying. And I don’t want to cause any disrespect to the RDVC but they have dragged Quantrill and Young over the coals about the Identification of the Button, coming up with all sorts of other buttons that look similar to Keanes.
Well let’s face it, if they wanted to, they could have withheld all the up-dates but they didn’t and that’s why we are able to discuss Colour Sergeant Keane as we are today.
Sooner or later someone will come-up with some information, as I understand someone is trying to trace Keanes Campaign medal.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

90th
England's Sons Page 52. It’s with reference to captured Zulu's. And I do believe Julian has up-dated the book.

S.D

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Little Hand. You are quite correct. To me Sgt Keane was just a name on the Casualty Roll. But now,he has become probably the most important topic since Isandhlwana its self.

Peter Weedon is the one making moves to trace his campaign medal.

And of course we have the DNA findings to look forward to, which could lead to descendents coming up with information that has not yet been seen, like letters home.

I must admit the information supply by Quantrill and Young, was quite outstanding.
However the negativity that greeted them, after this Historical find was totally unnecessary, and as Pete pointed out, it was the resentment of others that caused the unprovoked attack, on there professionalism as two of the leading authorities of the AZW.

S.D

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

S.D
I agree with all of that.

Subject: young and quantrill Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:03 am

hi all

" DITTO"

CHEERS 90TH.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Well. just to let you know. I'm going to give up looking for information on Col Sgt Keane, I have spent nearly all day looking. Nothing. 90th your right. Its going to take some serious researching to find out anything about Keane.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

That makes two of us CTSG. I guest i'll just wait for the DNA tests.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

The last post by Mr Ewart on the RDVC is actually, what we are on about.

Quote :: Peter

PS. As an example of accepting words of wisdom from a non-expert, may I share a very recent experience? As I've said above somewhere, I know as much about military buttons as one could fit on a postage stamp - or a button! (But like medals or anything else, what I do know is the subject is interesting and that there is an awful lot to know!) Waiting to go in to bat yesterday, I overheard one team-mate telling another about an "interesting military medal or badge" he had found with a metal detector in the field behind his house. Back came the answer: "Show it to Pete, he'll know. He'll be able to identify it." So since yesterday I've been an acknowledged medal & button expert. It's a great feeling!

He just loves the word expert. Or should I say,would like to be recognised as an expert along with John Young and Peter Quantrill.

Quote :: The "other" site? Come on, Coll. Don't tell us you actually bothered to have a second look at that after seeing it once?

No one is forced to look at our forum,

Steady Chaps !!!. Don’t lets take this to a personal level?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Your quite right. Mad

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

I'm sorry Admin. But its starting to get to me, they are now having ago at AMAFA.

Quote :: This latest story suggests the AMAFA would prefer to lean towards playing the publicity card by opening the story to wide debate, rather than retaining some dignity and the respecting the feelings of the family if a mistake in identification is made.

For god sake, are they missing the point it, was a Historical Discovery, We are lucky that AMAF had the decency to share this with us. It’s got nothing to do with publicity.
I would bet £100 that AMAF, Peter Quantrill and John Young wished they had never said anything.
Well I for one am glad we got all the details when we did. And as for the maintenance of the Battlefield, give AMAF backs the artifacts that was stolen, which we know, are in the UK. And maybe the revenue from people paying to see them would help to maintain the Battlefields.
Admin is there away we could get people; to donate to the maintenance of the Battlefields in South Africa, There must be someway of getting the donations to the right people.
Do me a favor everyone, have a think about it and lets come up with some ideas.
I was going to donate to the RDVC. But they have two hopes now. Bob Hope and No Hope.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

John. My advice would be to stop looking at the RDVC, as it seems to be causing you some distress. (Remember, Smile and the whole world will smile with you.) :lol:

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Good advice John. I no longer bother with it.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Can someone explain the difference between the remains found of Col Sgt Keane and the Film clips below?

Finding The Fallen - SE1 - Episode 1 - Loos - Trench Detectives

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Finding The Fallen - SE1 - Episode 2 - Passchendaele - Trench Detectives

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Finding The Fallen - SE1 - Episode 3 - Serre - Trench Detectives

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S.D

I think that jut about says it all. The descendents seemed quite happy to have found their loved one after all those year, despite the fact that; they did know him in life

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

There is no difference what so ever, I think is great that they get to proper burial full military honours.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

I have checked and re-checked, and I cannot find, Col Sgt Keane in the book by John Young (They Fell like stones) And I don't have any pages missing.

I take it he wasn't listed or known of, when this book was published..

I could be wrong.. But I can't find him.

Guest

John,

Why don't you check Page 53 of They Fell Like Stones, under 'No. 3 Column (Part) Europeans - Staff'?

I think you'll find him there, unless you do have some pages missing?

Isandlwana

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Isandlwana. Firstly welcome to the forum.
And secondly thanks, I when through the book carefully, and could not find him. Now I have. It was driving me wife mad.

Guest

Thank you for your welcome John.

I also deal in marriage guidance should it happen again!

Isandlwana

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Apologies for being impatient. But does anyone know roughly, how long it would take to make a positive identification of Col Sgt Keane.

Guest

Old Historian 2,

Come on, they have only had the bones since November last year.

It then took over six months before they sought advice over the identity of button.

Their latest move is a request in Irish Post asking possible relatives to come forward for DNA sampling. In the meantime I have put out a message on a Family History site to which I've had one reply.

So the answer to your question, is another question; how long is a piece of string?

Isandlwana

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Old H.
It could take years. But rest assure. It will be Col Sgt Keane. Regardless of what others say.

S.D

Isandlwana. I’m a bit confused regarding the remains found at Isandlwana.
I was under the assumption that the remains were found in April 2009. But you’re saying they have had the remains since last November. If this is correct, are we also to presume that the uniform button was identified last November. Or was that identified in April this year.

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