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PostSubject: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Feb 06, 2011 7:34 pm

I am having doubts as to whether the Troopship H.M.S. Himalaya was involved in the Zulu War. I know the Medal Roll contains the Himalaya’s crew as all being entitled to the Medal without clasp, but were they entitled to the medal for services in the Zulu War, or for an earlier time?

I found no record of troop transport on 'Himalaya' mentioned in ‘Narrative of The Field Operations Connected With The Zulu War” or in any Naval Correspondence from South Africa.

The South African Medal is for the period 1877 – 1879. ‘The London Gazette’ lists the period of service for each ship whose crew was awarded the medal. HMS Himalaya’s period of service was 9th March to 15th March, 1878. In February, 1878 she took the 2nd Battalion, 24th to East London, South Africa to fight in the 9th Frontier War. On March 16, 1878 she picked up the naval brigade of HMS Active and transported it “Active” which was in Simon’s Bay.

In April, 1878 ‘Himalaya’ took the 42nd Regiment from Malta to Larnaca, Cyprus.

On 14 April, 1879 ‘Himalaya’ left Port Said for Queensland.

On 13 May, 1879 ‘Himalaya’ arrived in Portsmouth.

On 10 June, 1879 “Himalaya’ arrived at Gilbraltar.

On 14 June, 1879 “Himalaya’ left Gibraltar for England.

On 31 December, 1879 ‘Himalaya’ departed South Africa with the 99th Regiment for Bermuda.

I could find no record of any troops being transported on ‘Himalaya’ from England, or anywhere else in the Empire, to South Africa in late 1878 or at any time in 1879.

Since the officers and men were all entitled to the 1877-79 medal without clasp I had assumed it was because they had not served ashore in Zululand like ‘Tamar’, ‘Orontes’ and ‘Euphrates’.

I hope my theory is wrong, but if not, there are now 229 fewer men entitled to inclusion on lists of those serving in the Zulu War.

Any help clarifying this matter is greatly appreciated.

Petty Officer Tom
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Feb 06, 2011 8:37 pm

HMS Active originally 451 names on the roll but 42 Kroomen were deleted leaving 409, of which 62 were RM/RMA
HMS Boadicea 476 of which 53 were RM/RMA
HMS Euphrates 261 of which 19 were RM (all no clasp medals)
HMS Forester 76 of which 9 were RM (all 1879 clasp medals)
HMS Himalaya 229 of which 27 were RM (all no clasp medals)
HMS Orontes 226 of which 27 were RM (all no clasp medals)
HMS Shah 705 of which 87 were RM/RMA
HMS Tamar 226 of which 28 were RM (all no clasp medals)
HMS Tenedos 196 of which 24 were RM/RMA
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Feb 08, 2011 7:26 pm

Hi Petty Officer Tom

After looking into this, I do believe that you could be correct.

There are no reports for them taking any part in the war.

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Feb 08, 2011 7:56 pm

1879graves,

I was hoping someone was going to prove me wrong.

The problem lies, I think, with the medal for 1877-79 being referred to as the Zulu War medal, when it is The South Africa Medal 1877-79. It was awarded for other wars in South Africa beside the Zulu War. The 24th fought against the Gaikas, Galekas & other Kafir tribes in 1877 & 78 and would therefore have been entitled to the medal even if they had not fought in the Zulu War. Men of both battalions were awarded the clasp 1877-88, 1877-8-9, 1879 and No clasp medals.

Himalaya had some small part in 1878 entitling it to the medal without clasp.

Maybe it is time for an expert to jump in here.


Petty Officer Tom
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Feb 08, 2011 8:15 pm

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HMS Himalaya
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Feb 08, 2011 11:15 pm

"The outbreak of the Crimean War in 1854 resulted in the British Government having to organise their first large scale movement of troops overseas since the introduction of steam. At this time P&O had recently built the 3,438-ton Himalaya, then the world's largest iron screw ship. After a short time in service she was sold to the Navy for £130,000 and converted into a naval transport. She was destined to have a long career in the trooping service and was eventually converted into a coal hulk; she was still afloat al the outbreak of WWII, her iron hull still being in good shape. Eleven other P&O ships were commandeered as transports and during the Crimean campaign the company carried over 60,000 troops, together with thousands of horses and a large quantity of naval stores. The Cunard company provided eleven ships and the Bibby Line their first two steamships, the Tiber and Arno."
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Feb 08, 2011 11:47 pm

Nice Photo Graves. Here a few more of the Himalaya. (Interesting discussion)

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VIEW OF "THE HIMALAYA" STEAM-SHIP, FROM THE QUARTER-DECK.
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Not in copyright
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyWed Feb 09, 2011 9:13 am

Hi All
Her last resting place is the Harbour at Portland where the wreck can still be dived upon.
Rai
Keynshamlighthorse
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyWed Feb 09, 2011 4:23 pm

HIMALAYA - WRECK
"When launched in 1853 she was the largest three masted steamer in the world and weighed a massive 4,600 tons. After serving in the Crimean war, as one of the largest troopships, she was sold as a coal hulk and anchored in Portland Harbour. Four bombs dropped by German JU-88 Aircraft on her deck on 12th June 1940 consigned her to the seabed. Her Scattered remains now lie at a depth of about 12m. Take care though, of the four bombs dropped, only three were reported to have detonated!"

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyFri Jul 01, 2011 9:49 pm

Hi P.O.Tom

The following information comes from another forum (It is not my hard work Mad )

This is part of the service record to SIME (SIM), Robert Jameson. Sick Berth Steward.

HMS Himalaya 1st October 1878 to 8th August 1879

1st October 1878 joined HMS Himalaya (Between May and September 1878 Himalaya had been under the command of Captain Edward White and she was being refitted at Plymouth; boilers cleaned; accommodation upgraded and altered for ‘high-ranking’ passengers; this included a portion of the saloon separated off to form a new dining room and six new cabins built
3rd October – Was spent undergoing sea trials
4th October – Sailed from Plymouth; to go to the Mediterranean to carry members of the government to various locations in the area.
17th October – Arrived in Toulon; embarked various government officials and staff who had travelled overland
26th October – At Naples where she embarked the First Sea Lord, Secretary of State for War and other government officials with their staffs
29th October – Arrived at Larnaca in Cyprus; passengers landed for inspection of military sites
2nd November - Re-embarked and sailed to Famagusta
5th November – Sailed for Egypt
6th November - Arrived at Port Said
7th & 8th November – Spent at Alexandria
11th to 13th November – Spent at Malta
16th November – Arrived at Marseilles
21st November – At Gibraltar
22nd November – At Lisbon
25th November – At Cork
27th November – Arrived at Plymouth and disembarked passengers
24th December – Arrived at Portsmouth to embark troops from various regiments and relief crews for ships in the Far East
28th December – Sailed for the Far East
1879
9th to 13th January – Spent at Malta; disembarked some troops and supernumeries; embarked 27th Regiment (The Enniskillen’s)
17th January – Arrived at Larnaca, Cyprus and disembarked some families
19th January – At Port Said
26th January - Arrived at Aden
18th February - Sailed from Singapore
20th February – Arrived at Hong Kong; discharged the 27th foot and embarked 28th Regiment (The Gloucester’s)
17th March - At Malacca
7th April – Called in at Aden
14th April – At Suez
18th April – At Malta
19th April – Sailed for Cyprus
24th April – Sailed from Larnaca with 20th Regiment (The East Devonshire, later The Lancashire Fusiliers) embarked
29th May – At Malta, discharged the 20th Foot and sailed for England
11th May – Arrived at Cork and disembarked troops
13th May – Arrived at Portsmouth with a large number of time expired men and their families
15th May – Sailed to Plymouth
29th May – Sailed from Plymouth
3rd June – Arrived at Greenock – embarked 79th Regiment (The Cameron Highlanders) and sailed for Ireland the same day
5th June – At Cork
10th to 14th June – at Gibraltar; disembarked the 79th; embarked 42nd (The Black Watch)
18th June – Arrived Portsmouth and disembarked troops
July to August – Spent at Plymouth

So Petty Officer Tom
It looks like that you are correct, HMS Himalaya did not play any part in the Zulu War of 1879.
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySat Jul 02, 2011 7:36 pm

1879graves,

Thanks for that information. Idea

I will now have to remove Himalaya's crew from my list of Navy men who served during the Zulu War.

Petty Officer Tom
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySat Jul 02, 2011 8:30 pm

Quote :
I will now have to remove Himalaya's crew from my list of Navy men who served during the Zulu War.

Hi Petty Officer Tom

Looks like I will have to do the same Mad
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90th

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PostSubject: HMS Himalaya   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySat Jul 02, 2011 9:37 pm

Hi POT / 1879 Graves.
The question beckons why were those awarded a non- clasp medal and are in the Medal Roll ????.
That man Sime . R.J . Sick berth Steward , his medal was listed for sale on ebay uk on the 16 / 4 / 08 the listing closed 26 / 4 / 08.
His GCLS Medal was also included . Born Edinburgh 2 / 12 / 44 , enlisted Boy 2nd Class 6 / 6 / 59 , also sold with copy of service
papers and roll listing , opened 99 Pds , sold for 721 Pds , 369 Hits and 15 Bidders .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySat Jul 02, 2011 10:21 pm

Hi 90th

Quote :
The question beckons why were those awarded a non- clasp medal and are in the Medal Roll ????

As Petty Officer Tom says

Quote :
The problem lies, I think, with the medal for 1877-79 being referred to as the Zulu War medal, when it is The South Africa Medal 1877-79. It was awarded for other wars in South Africa beside the Zulu War
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PostSubject: HMS Himalaya   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 8:24 am

Hi POT / 1879Graves.
I've looked through several books including a couple dealing with the 77-78 campaign and no mention of HMS . Himalaya.
So it certainly seems it wasnt actually involved in the Anglo Zulu War of 79 . So it's safe to assume it may have been involved
in one of the earlier campaigns .
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 10:23 am

Hi All

Further information on HMS Himalaya from another Forum, in red could be why they were entitled to The South Africa Medal without a clasp.

HMS Himalaya February 1877 to June 1878, Service Details

14 February 1877 – arrived Hong Kong from England
3 March – sailed Hong Kong “with crews of relieved vessels... of the Hornet, Midge, Growler and Swinger”
12 March – arrived Penang – embarked 88th regiment for South Africa
21 March – arrived Trincomalee
24 March – sailed T for Colombo
25 March – arrived Colombo
26 March – sailed C for Mauritius & South Africa
17 April – arrived Simonstown – disembarked 88th regiment; embarked 296 men of the 32nd Regiment
21 April – sailed Simonstown
10 May – called St Vincent, Cape Verde Is
24 May – arrived Plymouth from Cape Town and the Far East; discharged troops
26 May – arrived Portsmouth “she brought the HQ and three batteries of 2nd Brigade Royal Artillery from Hong Kong, Ceylon and Singapore; the relieved crews of the Hornet, Midge, Swinger and Growler gunboats; 19 invalids, 28 time-expired men; 13 women and 18 children and 24 convicts.
28 May – returned Plymouth for refit
June – Sep = refitting at Plymouth – reported that several defects became apparent during maintenance, resulting in what should have been a two month maintenance period being extended (reported cost of refit £5,435)
12 Oct – undocked
15/16 Oct – damaged during a storm which hit southern England – moored in the Hamoaze a German barque was driven down onto her
30 Oct – sailed Plymouth
31 Oct – arrived Portsmouth; embarked the 19th Regiment of Foot plus families also draft of men for ships in the West Indies
2 Nov – sailed Portsmouth
17 Nov – at Bermuda; discharged troops etc
5 Dec – at Queenstown; discharged 87th Regiment
8 Dec – arrived Portsmouth with time expired naval crews from WI
19 Dec – sailed with relief crews for the Devastation & Raleigh plus draft of troops from various regiments
20 Dec - called at Devonport to collect more ‘supernumeries’
31 Dec – arrived Malta; disembarked passengers
1878
3 January 1878 – sailed Malta with relieved crews of ships plus other time expired men
14 January – arrived Portsmouth
15 Jan – sailed
16 Jan – arrived Plymouth
31 Jan – arrived Portsmouth
2 February – sailed with the 24th Regiment embarked
9 – 11 Feb – at St Vincent, Cape Verde
28 Feb – arrived Simonstown
6 March – sailed for East London
8 March – arrived East London & landed troops
18 March – arrived Simonstown
28 Mar – to Table Bay
30 March – sailed; General Sir Arthur Cunynghame plus family and staff plus a number of invalids embarked

29 April – arrived Portsmouth; disembarked passengers
4 May – sailed Portsmouth with drafts of new men for various regiments – first call at Guernsey; sailed same night
5 May – arrived Queenstown (Cork); landed 600 men for various regiments
7 May - sailed
8 May – arrived Guernsey; disembarked men of the Royal Artillery
(9?)May – arrived Plymouth, where she remained for the remainder of the month

The South Africa Medal 1877 to 1879 was awarded to HMS Himalaya for her service between 9th & 15th March 1878, 8th March when she Arrived at East London with the 2/24th foot who were ordered onto trains that took them to King Williams Town.
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PostSubject: HMS Himalaya   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi 1879Graves.
I think that you have just put that one to bed , well done .
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 2:00 pm

I wonder how many people purchased a South Africa Medal for HMS Himalaya, thinking it took part in the Zulu War; and did that inflate the price scratch


Petty Officer Tom
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PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 10:18 pm

Zulu War 1879 - List of Ships Despatching Troops

"Narrative of the Field Operations Connected with the Zulu War of published in 1881, prepared in the Intelligence Branch of the Quartermaster-General's Department, Horse Guards,

I've extracted the following which is a list of troop ships sent between Feb. and May of 1879 to Natal and their ports of embarkation. £700,000 was the naval cost for transportation.

THE ZULU WAR - DESPATCH OF TROOPS TO NATAL AFTER RECEIPT OF INTELLIGENCE OF THE AFFAIR AT ISANDHLWANA:"

[Ship name - embarkation point]

>From the U.K.:
Egypt - Southampton
Spain - Southampton
England - Southampton
France - Victoria Docks, London
Russia - Portsmouth
Manora - Victoria Docks
Olympus - Southampton
Andean - Woolwich
Palmyra - Portsmouth
Borussia - Portsmouth
City of Paris - Queenstown - "...ran aground entering Simon's Bay on 23rd March. Troops transferred to H.M.S. "Tamar"."
Dublin Castle - Gravesend
Danube - Southampton
Pretoria - Southampton
China - Southampton
City of Venice - Kingstown
Queen Margaret - Victoria Docks
Florence - South-west India Docks
Clyde - Woolwich - "...wrecked on Dyer's Island, about 70 miles from Simon's Bay, on 3rd April. Troops taken on in H.M.S. "Tamar"."
Nyanza - Southampton
H.M.S. Orontes - Portsmouth and Queenstown
H.M.S. Tamar - Ceylon
H.M.S. Shah - St. Helena
Umvoti - Mauritius

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littlehand

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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 10:35 pm

I wonder what they mean by "Particular Service" 1879 could this have been connected with the Zulu War...

Himalaya, 1854
Type: Iron Troopship ;
Launched : 24 May 1853 ; Disposal date or year : Jun 1940
Disposal Details : Sunk in Portland Harbour during air raid.
BM: 3453 tons ; Displacement: 4490 tons
Propulsion: Screw
Machinery notes: 2609 hpi 700 hp ; Speed ; 12.8 under Steam, 16.5 with sails assistance knots ;
Notes:

12 Feb 1856 Left Malta

17 Feb 1856 Left Gibraltar
,
25 Feb 1856 Arrived Spithead from the Mediterranean with 70 Naval invalids

25 Feb 1856 Sailed for Southampton

8 Oct 1859 salvage services rendered to the Norma.

1860 Particular Service - Store ship

1 July 1861 Devonport. Commissioned.

1864 Troop Ship. Irregular or particular service. Medical report : VD and number of Cases of Disease and Injury.

1870 Particular Service.

31 Dec 1870 departed Bermuda.

12 Jan 1871 arrived and departed Queenstown.

13 Jan 1871 arrived Plymouth Sound.

31 Jan 1871 sailed from Devonport for Gravesend, Portsmouth and Queenstown, where she will embark troops for Gibraltar and Malta.

6 Feb 1871 arrived Portsmouth to coal and embark elements of the 28th and 74th regiments.

8 Feb 1871 sailed for Queenstown.

18 Feb 1871 called at Gibraltar.

23 Feb 1871 arrived Malta.

14 Mar 1871 arrived Spithead from Malta and Gibraltar and came into harbour before nightfall.

15 Mar 1871 disembarked her passengers.

1 Apr 1871 departed Portsmouth for Devonport and the West Indies.

2-3 Apr 1871 called at Plymouth Sound with the ships' companies of the Vestal and Cameleon, along with relief companies for the Danae, Plover and Niobe, on the West Indies and Pacific stations. 22 Oct 1874 Commissioned at Devonport.

1879 Particular Service.

7 Dec 1882 Commissioned at Devonport.

Apr 1886 Torpedo Service.

6 Apr 1886 Gibraltar. Himalaya left for Malta and Alexandria today.

1890 Troop Ship.

1895 Converted for use as a Coal hulk.

1920 Sold to civilian contractor.

Jun 1940 Sunk during an air attack on Portland Harbour.
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90th

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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: H.M.S. Himalaya   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 10:41 pm

Hi Pot.
In my earlier post regarding Sick Berth Steward Sime's medal it sold in 2008 for 721 Pds , According to the Medal Year Book
of that year an un- clasped Naval Medal was valued between 280 - 300 Pds !. Fairly safe to say it was an expensive buy even
though it included his LSGC Medal as well . Suspect
cheers 90th. Idea
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John

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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptySun Jul 03, 2011 10:55 pm

This is where it was on June 3rd 1879.

'On the 14th of January 1879, Lieutenant-General Sir John Douglas, G.C.B., was appointed Colonel of the regiment in succession to Sir A. H. Horsford, G.C.B., Military Secretary, who was transferred to the 14th Foot; and on the 15th of May the same year orders were issued to prepare for immediate embarkation to relieve the linked battalion at Gibraltar. For this station the 79th, under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Cumming, and with a total strength of 20 officers and 538 non-commissioned officers and men, accordingly sailed from Greenock on the 3d of June on board H.M.S. "Himalaya," and on the 11th quarters were taken up at the Buena-Vista Barracks,
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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyMon Jul 04, 2011 1:03 am

littlehand,

“Particular service” is used almost all the time when referring to where a troop ship is assigned since they are not part of a regular squadron. Occasionally I have seen it used for a ship-of-the-line that is not assigned to a squadron, but instead is on a special assignment such as HMS Bacchante taking the young princes, H.R.H. Albert Victor and H.R.H. George on a world cruise after they had had completed their naval cadet training. Hope this helps.

Petty Officer Tom


90th,

£720 seems a fair price with the LSGC included; especially if you really want the medal.


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littlehand

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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 11:13 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
H.M.S. Himalaya, photograph by J. P. Foscolo c. 1878-1880s
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littlehand

littlehand

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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Mar 13, 2012 8:52 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
South Africa 1877-79, no clasp (S. J. Robins. Engr. R.N. H.M.S. “Himalaya”

Samuel John Robins was born on 5 April 1851 and was appointed Assistant Engineer in the Royal Navy, 24 July 1872; Engineer, June 1877; Chief Engineer, August 1885; Staff Engineer, August 1889; Fleet Engineer, August 1893; Inspector of Machinery, April 1900; Chief Inspector of Machinery, later Engineer Rear-Admiral (Bermuda Yard), April 1902. Passed Special Course at the Royal School of Naval Architecture, and the R.N. College, Greenwich. Engineer of Himalaya during the war against the Zulus in South Africa, 1877 to 1879 (Medal).
Source: Dix Noonan.

If this has been posted before let me know.
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HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? Empty
PostSubject: Re: HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not?   HMS Himalaya – Involved in Zulu War or Not? EmptyTue Mar 13, 2012 10:06 pm

littlehand,

Yours is the first post for Samuel J. Robins of which I am aware.

Unfortunately, there is an error in the listing for his medal. He was not awarded the South Africa medal for the "Zulu" war. I don't know the exact date he left "Himalaya", but in February 1879 he was serving on HMS Rupert, in the Mediterranean.

Since "Himalaya" did transport troops to South Africa in 1878 during the wars at the Cape, he is entitled to the medal without clasp for that "South African War."


Petty Officer Tom




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