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 Charlie Pope's diary

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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:54 am

After a long time of looking I am at my wit's end trying to find out where the Diary (picked up off the battlefield at Isandlwana) belonging to Lt Charles d'aguila Pope is. Has anyone got any Ideas or suggestions as to where it is to be found?
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Poe's Diary   Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:00 am

Hi umbikazulu.
I have read somewhere about Pope's Diary being salvaged from the battlefield but by whom and where it is I cant tell you.
I'm sure I've seen a picture of his last entry but not sure where ! . Suspect . I will try and locate it .
cheers 90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Poe's Diary   Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:22 am

This is his last entry .

'' 22nd January , 1879 . 4 a.m. - A , C , D, E, F , H Companies of our's - 1, 2, 3, NNC - Mounted Troops and four guns off .

Great Firing , Relieved by 1 / 24th .
Alarm .
3 Columns zulus and mounted men on hill E.
Turn Out
7,000 ( !!!) more E.N.E , 4,000 of whom went round Lion's Kop.
Durnford , Basuto's , arrive and pursue ,- Rocket Battery .
Zulus retire everywhere ,
Men fall out for Dinner's .

cheers 90th.

ps. Forgot to mention this was from ' The Zulu War Then And Now ' by Ian Knight .
There is no mention of the whereabouts of Pope's Diary in ' The Noble 24th ' by Norman Holme .
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:57 am

I have a feeling Mike Snook mentions it as being with the RRW in Brecon

Regards
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:46 am

Thanks all for looking, but I know that it is in none of the usual places, the reason that I am looking for it is that the earliest account of what it contained for the 22nd Jan is written by Norris (Noggs) Newman in his book ' In Zululand with the British Army....' but seems to be a ' hearsay' rendition of the entry,
many thanks anyway for trying.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:18 pm

umbikazulu

I have been in touch with the Brecon Museum, Mrs Evans ( I assume its a Mrs if not I apologise) its not there. Ive also sent of an e mail to the RRW.
I will post any reply.

Regards
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:26 pm

thanks Springbok9.
But as I said in a previous post I have tried all the usual places inc contacting with Martin Everett (swb Museum) but without success.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:45 pm

"Charlie Pope was found on the battlefield transfixed by a Zulu spear. He was still wearing his monocle. The Zulus called him ‘the man with the glass eye"
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:01 am

umbikazulu
Celia Green tells me its at the National Army Museum Chelsea. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:19 pm

Thanks springbok9 but it isn't at the NAM I've been there, and the curator Mr Alastair Moody told me that he will keep a look out and let me know if hears of it's whereabouts.
Thanks again for trying but I have already tried ALL the leading authorities without success.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:50 am

Have you tried Ian Knight? Not that he would have it but he could possibly point you in the right direction
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:54 pm

Hi umbikazulu

I have sent you a PM
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:04 am


Umbikazulu,

I'm sorry that I don't know the location where Popes diary was recovered from the field. It was in the late kenneth Griffiths personal collection for many years before he sold it to a "private collector" in the early 1980s. I believe it still remains in that collection but I could be mistaken. I have another item formerly in his collection that Ken made an audio tape describing details, provenance, Etc.. In a side conversation he expains selling his "Zulu Treasures" to concentrate on specific aspects of the Boer War but I believe it and other parts of his Zulu War collection were sold setteling a "personal matter." I'm afraid that the only answer you may get as to its location is "in a private collection" although I certainly hope it does surface. Wouldn't it be fantastic to see those last entries we have read about! Best of luck with your search.

Regards, Jeff
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: popes diary   Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:33 am

Thanks springbok9 yes I have tried Ian and also Keith smith.
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: popes diary   Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:34 am

Thanks dundeeboer I will look into that it's a new clue.
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's diary   Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:12 am

Hi all.
Wouldnt it be fantastic if the owner of the diary stumbled across the Forum . Shocked . Not likely , unfortunately . Suspect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:39 pm

Hi all this is from Zulu Victory
On the 15th of May Black again led a party composed of officers of the 24th Regiment and volunteers, totalling approximately twenty to Isandlwana. No burials were conducted and it was on this occasion that Lieutenant Charlie Popes diary was found.


Hope this helps Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:36 pm

Probably given to his family, and now laying in a wooden chest in someone's loft. One day it will make an appearance. Maybe not it our life time. But who knows.
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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:00 am

Hi Littlehand .
Sadly , you may be right !. Suspect Suspect .
cheers 90th . Idea .
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:45 am

I asked the question of its location on another forum and was told it was indeed sold to a private collector, and again that the reason for the sale was to finance a divorce. The other forum member that answered the call was actually involved in the sale but is being discreet on the present owner.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:54 am

Extract from Isandlwana - The Missing Five Hours Ron Lock – Peter Quantrill September 2010

Lieutenant C. Pope’s Diary. 2/24 Regiment, portion of which read:
“ Alarm- 3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E. Turn Out 7,000(!!!) more E.N.E., 4000 of whom went around Lion’s Kop.[Isandlwana Hill] Durnford’s Basutos, arrive and pursue.”


Pope, by direct personal observation, provided confirmatory evidence that a large Zulu force was sighted. Furthermore, the deployment was taking place prior to Durnford’s arrival. This is a valuable, and completely uncorrupted, collateral source report.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:15 pm

sas1
Corroborated by Chard.

Regards
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:24 am

Thanks Springbok9. I am now doubting that the diary acually exists! I was told the same story regarding the sale however I cannot get anyone to admit to even having seen the diary and thereby confirm it's existence,

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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:56 am

Hi Umbikazulu.
There is no doubt it exists , as I've previously posted the last entry earlier in this thread . sas1 has also posted it on this thread.
cheers 90th. Idea .

ps. I dont know of to many who would own up to owning it , I certainly wouldnt !. Shocked .
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:05 pm

Hi 90th.
I wouldn't admit to having it either but I wasn't saying that, what I'm saying is that I cannot get anyone to say that they have even seen it, though a few hint at it.
But never mind it will just have to remain an enigma.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:48 am

Umbikakulu

You have to trust me on the next statement.

There is a forum member that has seen and held and indeed read the diary, he does however wish to remain anonymos.
It does exist.

Regards ( in New Zealand following the mighty mighty springboks)
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:59 pm

"The Fusiliers later visited the battlefield at Isandlwana where men of the 24th were belatedly burying the bodies of their fallen comrades (and the act of leaving corpses unburied for six months had been another source of anguish at home). They found a battlefield strewn with carcasses of cattle and horses still ‘festering in the sun’ and collected relics from the site, in one case ‘a Zulu shield, battered and crumpled, a cricketing pad,
half of Wolseley’s pocket book, and a song, “Do they miss me at Home?” ’.

They retrieved the diary of Lieutenant Pope, updated on the day of the battle, after the apparent withdrawal of the Zulus before the advance of Colonel Durnford’s native horsemen. The last entry reportedly stated: ‘Enemy retreat – men fall out for dinners’ before the right horn of the Zulu impi swung round to attack the camp."


Source: The Scottish Soldier and Empire, 1854–1902
By Edward M. Spiers
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:49 am

Both sas1 & myself have posted the last entry in the diary on the forum . A quick search for those who wish to read it .
Not sure exactly where it may be , possibly on this thread .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:17 am

I have just seen this thread. David Jackson saw Pope's Diary in the late fifties and copied out the entry in question and I have a photocopy of it. It is worth stating that the entry is exactly as it appears (i.e. text, layout) in Norris-Newman's book and notably not as it appears in some later works.
The layout is important as it gives clues to the sequence of events and what was being referred to. That is to say it was not one continuous entry but a record of a series of events, written piecemeal, over the course of the morning.
The Diary is now in a private collection (regrettably not mine).
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:07 pm

Hi Julian.
Regrettably not mine either Suspect Idea .
cheers 90th.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:42 am

Why is it such a secret, if I own the dairy, I would certainly have no objection to posting the contents. No wonder head way can't be made regarding the events at Isandlwana.
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umbikazulu



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:03 am

Thanks Julian.
At last someone who can verify the entry thank you so much . that is the last piece of evidence verified yippee!!
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:22 am

Apparently Kenneth Griffith in a documentrey called Black as Hell, Thick as Grass!, is walking around Isandlwana with Charlie Pope's diary in his hand.


Can't seem to find a copy anywhere though Suspect


Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:41 am

Hi DB14

There is one copy available on Amazon at the moment.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:44 am

Hi 1879Graves

Thanks but its American Mad

It won't work in England Suspect Suspect



Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:46 pm

Kenneth Griffith used to have Charlie Pope's diary in his private collection. When he died some years ago now, it was sold to another private collector.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:01 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Kenneth Griffith used to have Charlie Pope's diary in his private collection. When he died some years ago now, it was sold to another private collector.

Why has the diary never been transcribed into type, so that readers don't need to keep thumbing through this historically important document? Am I right in inferring that copies of the diary don't exist?
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:52 pm

Because it's always been first in family and thereafter in private ownership. David Jackson saw it in the 50s and told me that the only historically relevant entry is the one on 22nd January 1879 and the entry is as it appears (exactly) in In Zululand with the British by Norris-Newman. So, the answer is that it HAS been transcribed into type, albeit long ago, though no modern history has reproduced it as it appears in Norris-Newman in terms of layout, etc.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:24 pm

Hi Julian

Do you know the circumstances of how David Jackson saw the diary??



Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:26 pm

David and Kenneth were acquainted through various AZW gatherings/conferences and he asked him to show it to him. David copied it out verbatim. I have a copy of his copy.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:43 pm

Julian. Any chance of post a copy.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:02 pm

The layout is in Norris Mewmans book

He must have seen it



Cheers
DB
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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:50 pm

Hi Drummer boy .
I have the video ' Black as hell , thick as grass ' but I dont remember Griffith
carrying the Pope Diary . I bought mine from a America and it worked for me .
cheers 90th .

I'm still away till later today and will try and watch it to see if the diary is there !.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:29 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Drummer boy .
I have the video ' Black as hell , thick as grass ' but I dont remember Griffith
carrying the Pope Diary . I bought mine from a America and it worked for me .
cheers 90th .

I'm still away till later today and will try and watch it to see if the diary is there !.

He may have been carrying a book, but who is to say this is THE diary and not a prop.
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:30 pm

I saw it posted by John Young on the RD forum Idea

Cheers
DB
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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:36 pm

Hi DB.
I've just watched ' Black as Hell , Thick as Grass ' and can tell you Griffith isnt carrying any type of book during his narration on Isandlwana . I did pick up a couple of errors , during his discussion on Isandlwana in front of his Bell tent
it is flying the Welsh flag , maybe not an error more so a statement as he was Welsh so he says !. A picture of Melvill is
used in place of Pulleine . He states Penn - Symons survived Isandlwana which we know isnt true . He says Durnford arrived about 9.30 am , it was 10 - 10.30 wasnt it ?. He also states Pulleine summoned Melvill & Coghill and told them to save the Colours . Lastly he states about 5pm a sentry at R.D yells '' Here they come , black as hell , thick as grass '' . The attack was earlier than 5pm .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:59 am

Remember he was an actor, a story-teller, an avid fan of the Zulu War, and collector of memorabilia, not an historian, but very much in the mould of Rattray. He used his media-world contacts and thespian skills to promote the AZW as best he could. Like all non-historians he was inclined to be liberal with the truth (not always knowingly, more out of enthusiasm). We can forgive him his minor errors.
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90th

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PostSubject: Charlie Pope's Diary   Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:37 am

Hi Julian .
Granted , I didnt wish to be seen as putting Kenneth down . I do enjoy his boundless enthusiasm on the video .
As you say he was much in the same vein as D. Rattray . He certainly was passionate in his telling of Isandlwana & R. Drift .
Cheers 90th. Idea

PS. All the best with your projects in 2012 and Happy New Year Julian . Idea Thanks for all your help during the year , it is very much appreciated .
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:06 pm

Julian & 90th,

I think you'll find David Rattray was very much influenced by Kenneth Griffith's documentary, back in the early 1990's when David & Nicky were just getting started they would fire up the generator so that guests could see 'Black as Hell, Thick as Grass'. I saw it three times in a week!

I was present at one of David's early RGS talks and Kenneth, who was present in the audience, was introduced as one of David's major influences.

I took the opportunity to speak to Kenneth that evening, and I actually mentioned the Melvill/Pulleine mistake and the Penn-Symons point to him, which led to me having a private screening of 'Black as Hell' & a documentary on Zola Budd. In his defence Kenneth stated the wrong photograph error was the fault of a researcher, who had mistaken his comment as to where to find the photograph in Mac' & Shad'. As to Penn-Symons he was apparently quoting from a pamphlet that Penn-Symons had prepared on the campaign whilst stationed in India in the 1880's. As Kenneth's actual field of interest was the Boer War of 1899-1902, he was more than aware than Penn-Symons was not actually a survivor of Isandlwana.

kwaJimu1879
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PostSubject: Re: Charlie Pope's diary   Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:31 pm

The Diary entery for the 22nd of January.


" 22nd January, 1879-4 a.m- A,C,D,E,F,H Compamies of
ours- N.N.C-mounted troops and four guns off.
Great Firing
Relieved by 1-24th.
Alarm
3 Columns Zulus and mounted men on hill E.
Turn Out
7000 (!!!) more E.N.E., of whom went round Lions
Kop.
Durnford, Bastos, arrive and pursue-Rocket Battery
Zulus retire everywhere.
Men fall out for dinners.




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