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 The Missing Colours Isandlwana

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impi

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PostSubject: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:45 pm

Is there any theories as to what happen to the missing colours. Are there any eyewitness accounts of them being seen at Isandlwana. Were they actually taken to Isandlwana. Who would have have been given the responsibility of looking after them.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:40 pm

To my knowledge their where 3 colours at the camp. The first Battalions queens colour saved by Melville and both the second battalions colours that where never seen again. However a length of pole, a golden lion and a colour case where tracked down in the general area. The case was found in the Manzimyama valley and in 1921 Brigadier-General Mainwaring ( a subaltern in the 2nd/24th back in 1879) climbed the Mahlabamkhosi to take a photo and remembered back in 1879 that it was on this koppie over 40 years earlier that he had found the lenth of pole.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:48 pm

Drummerboy. For a 14 year old your very well informed. Suspect
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:34 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat as my History Teacher says " its not rocket science" simply read page 277 of How can men die better and all is explained in regard to the Colours.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:52 pm

:lol!: At least your reading the right books
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:55 pm

i have to agree with you their apart from his opion of Durnford i find Mike Snooks books to be the best i have ever read did he do one on Rorkes Drift?
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:58 pm

Like Wolves on the Fold: The Defence of Rorke's Drift
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:59 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:01 pm

thanks that one is also going on the christmas list :)
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:02 pm

You won't be sorry!!! Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:16 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
thanks that one is also going on the christmas list :)

I would thoroughly recommend Ian Knight's book also.

As to the colours and what happened to them, did Melville run away from the battle using the saving the colours as an excuse, or did he obey an order to save the colours and die gallantly in attempting to do so, no one will ever know! That is why this forum is so much fun. So many unanswered questions, leaves room for plenty of debate>
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:29 pm

Hi tasker224 if you read How can men die better it explains from eyewiness sorces that Melvile took the Colour to where Pulline last know to be. Also Melvile was seen by Colonel Glyns servent passing from where the 24th where rallying. Moments later Coghill rode past from that position and reported that Pulline had been shot. So Melvile took the Colours to where Pulliene was and it seems possible that the legand of the " dash with the Colours " may well have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:38 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Hi tasker224 if you read How can men die better it explains from eyewiness sorces that Melvile took the Colour to where Pulline last know to be. Also Melvile was seen by Colonel Glyns servent passing from where the 24th where rallying. Moments later Coghill rode past from that position and reported that Pulline had been shot. So Melvile took the Colours to where Pulliene was and it seems possible that the legand of the " dash with the Colours " may well have happened.

Absolutely, Ian Knight and Mike Snook have almost certainly used the same sources. Plenty of witnesses saw M+C that day, but no one will ever know if M fled, or was ordered to.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:47 pm

Coghill left the Battlefield before Melville. The only time Melville met with Coghill is when Coghill returned to help him from the river. Coghill told Curling Pulliene was dead.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:50 pm

This is from How can men die better
" Moments after Melville passed Williams, Coghill rode up and told him to save himself"
If this is true then Melville left first.

As i have already said on another topic my farther holds the Royal Engineers associations Colours. He says they are not light and if Melville had realy wanted to save himself then he would have cast them aside well earlier then when he lost them in the river.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Drummerboy. It may pay for you to read the evidence from the witness statements at the court of enquiry, mainly Curling, Smith Dorrient and I think Essex.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:53 pm

Hi 24th thanks i will try and see if i can read them. Idea

The reason i thourght that Melville left first was that Private Williams Glyns servant stated that Melvile rode past first with the Queens Colours and then Coghill rode up and told him to save himself.

Also i remember reading that Coghill met Melville on the ride to the river where he reported that Colonel Pulline had been shot. Coghill also told this to Curling.

Happy to be proved wrongs

Cheers DB14 Idea
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:36 pm

Also read Bickihills account
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:39 am

Some where on the forum I posted a time line showing (where possible) who left when and who met whom on the trail. Both C and M were seen on many occasions in close proximity. The available evidence and a time and space recconstruction would place M on the trail before C.
Curling, Brickhill and Bickley all point to a lone Coghill.
There is a point in Brickhills evidence when he describes a traffic jam caused by M and C urging people that its no place to walk. This scene has been put on the Mzinyathi by a lot of Authors, including Col Snook. Read Brickhill carefully, place him in context with the rest of the fugitives testimony and that incident could only have occured on the Manzimyama. Binckleys statement puts M and C meeting together before that point, so within a half mile of the camp M and C were seen together ( C reported Pullein shot at that meeting.)

Personally I believe that Melvill was ordered to save the colors ( Fine Victorian melodrama there) Coghill????? left the field of battle. But we can only speculate.

Draw your own conclusions.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:43 am

Drummerboy

No Im afraid it doesnt prove that Melvill left first, it proves that Melvill passed Williams before Coghill, nothing more than that.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:33 am

Hi

Have a look at Fripp's famous painting of Isandlwana - is that the Regimental Colour of the 2nd Battalion in the remains of a rallying square ?

Bill
Bill Cainan
Curator
The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:39 am

Bill
It would be rather wonderful if thats the way it happened ( have to love the melodrama). And again its highly possible, the colors would have been, I assume, in the guard tent on the saddle. So yes highly possible one of the retreating companies would have had the oportunity to use it as a rallying call.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:17 pm

I am pretty certain that the flag shown is the Regimental Colour of the 2nd Battalion as their where no more regimentals Colours in the camp, i think the first battalions was left at Helpmeker Idea
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:27 pm

Quote :
Have a look at Fripp's famous painting of Isandlwana - is that the Regimental Colour of the 2nd Battalion in the remains of a rallying square ?


Nice thought. But the image in the painting is what the artist imagined took place. The Zulu’s as a sign of their victory probably burnt the missing colours.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:17 pm

Considering where the parts to the Colours where found is it not possible that their was another " Dash with the colours" could have happened. I dout the Zulus would have carried the Colour case away from thr camp or did they retire in that direction?

Any ideas most welcome


Cheers DB14 Idea
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90th

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PostSubject: The Missing Colours - Isandlwana   Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:35 am

Hi Drummerboy 14 .
Without going into any detail , ie ; Looking through my books . I can tell you with absolute certainty that the zulu took everything
they could carry and then some !!. Much of it was discarded on the path of their withdrawl when it became to hard to proceed fully
loaded up Idea .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:16 am

There was a reference to a 'Red haired officer escaping down the trail an a white horse carrying a flag'. Only the one reference though and never verified.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:21 pm

Hi Springbok wasnt the man surposed to be Henry Dyer the Adjutent of the second Battalion . I read it in Zulu Vicrory but i am sure Dyer was killed in the last stand of H comapany and then found 5 months later by Major Black.

Happy to be corrected



Cheers DB14 Idea Idea
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:09 pm

Hi Impi i think i might have been wrong about the location of the Colour pole. It was found in an deserted Kraal deep in Zululand, It was the Queens Colour pole but their was no sign of the silk. Some officers assuming that the flag had been taken to Ulundi questioned some Zulus. The puzzled natives listened to the discription of the Colour and replied that they had see no such strange object, they added that they douted it had ever been taken to the Roya Kraal as Cetshwayo would never wear anything that gaudy.

Source The Washing Of The Spears By Donald Morris


Regards DB14 Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:41 am

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Hi Impi i think i might have been wrong about the location of the Colour pole. It was found in an deserted Kraal deep in Zululand, It was the Queens Colour pole but their was no sign of the silk. Some officers assuming that the flag had been taken to Ulundi questioned some Zulus. The puzzled natives listened to the discription of the Colour and replied that they had see no such strange object, they added that they douted it had ever been taken to the Roya Kraal as Cetshwayo would never wear anything that gaudy.

Source The Washing Of The Spears By Donald Morris


Regards DB14 Idea
Stand to be corrected but I seem to recall that there was some speculation that the Queens Colour may have been burnt up because the deserted kraal was torched before the Colour pole was found in the general area so the kraal wasn't searched for the Colour. It's not in Morris. It could be in Knight's Zulu Rising. Zulu Rising and most of my other books don't list Colour in the index so haven't been able to find the reference to check.

From the Royal Regiment of Wales website (http://www.rrw.org.uk/museums/brecon/fact_sheets/7.htm):
"the 2nd Battalion Colours were left behind in the camp and were lost on 22nd January 1879 at the Battle of Isandhlwana. All that were found was a pike, a crown and Colour case (it cannot be assumed that these pieces related to the same Colour). The pike was found in a kraal two miles from Isandhlwana on the 21st May 1879. The crown was found by a wood cutting party in a farmhouse on the Natal side of the buffalo, four miles from Rorke's Drift in March 1879 and the case was found about 1200 yards from the camp in a bed of the stream.
The surviving pike and crown were trooped at the presentation of new Colours in Gibraltar in August 1880. The relics were subsequently presented to HM Queen Victoria by Major C J Bromhead on 15th March 1881 and were later placed in the Armoury at Windsor Castle. They remained there until 25th July 1923, when HM King George V returned them to the Regiment for safe-keeping. The relics were re-dedicated on Sunday 20th April 1924 and placed in the Regimental Chapel in Brecon Cathedral
."
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:25 pm

HI NMP
I also remember reading about the Colour pole being found but the Kraal it was found in tourched before it had been searched. Their are many theiries as to what happened to the lost colours. I geuss it will be another great mysterey of the 22nd of January 1879.


Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:43 am

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
HI NMP
I also remember reading about the Colour pole being found but the Kraal it was found in tourched before it had been searched. Their are many theiries as to what happened to the lost colours. I geuss it will be another great mysterey of the 22nd of January 1879.


Regards
DB14, yes, a great mystery. Glad to hear you've read it, too, I can't seem to find where though. If not in Snook or Knight most likely Colenso & Durnford or Norris-Newman; all recent reads.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:41 pm

Hi NMP
I dont know if you have read "The Heroism and tragady of the Zulu war 1879 by Saul David" but i think i could have read it in their. It is definatly not in Snooks book but maybe Zulu Rising.


Regards DB14 Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:23 am

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Hi NMP
I dont know if you have read "The Heroism and tragady of the Zulu war 1879 by Saul David" but i think i could have read it in their. It is definatly not in Snooks book but maybe Zulu Rising.


Regards DB14 Idea
DB14, Haven't read David. Agree I don't think it was in Snook's pair. Zulu Rising seems the most likely.
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PostSubject: The Missing Colours - Isandlwana   Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:30 am

Hi All.
To summarize this thread I can tell you as stated by DB14 , the Regimental Colour of the 1st Batt was with a Co in Helpmekaar ,
which leaves The Queens Colour of the 1 / 24TH and The TWO Colours of the 2 / 24th still in the camp at Isandlwana . We also
know that Melvill left the camp with the 1 / 24th's Queens Colour which was later found by Lt . Harber and Harford , which by the way
I've posted on here somewhere previously . So that leaves us with 2 Colours missing , both belonging to the 2 / 24th . The following
is from Ian Knight's - Companion To The Anglo Zulu War ( One more for the xmas list DB14 ) !. '' The two colours of the 2 /24th were never recovered . At the end of March 79 a wood cutting party from R.D. found the Gilt crown Finial from one of the colours in the garden of a deserted farm house 4 miles downstream from R.D . It appeared to have been unscrewed by someone familiar with the construction of a colour - pole , how it got there remains a mystery . The pole from which it had been removed was discovered by vedettes of the 1st KDG'S in a zulu homestead about 2 miles from Isandlwana during the burial expedition of 21st May. It is not clear , either , how the pole and crown became seperated . No trace of the colours themselves were found , although the homestead was put to the torch by the Dragoons before being thoroughly searched - Rather to the 24th's regret '' . Hope this clears it up .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:16 am

90th wrote:
Hope this clears it up .
cheers 90th.
It does. Thanks, 90th !
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Thanks 90th
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:20 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Hi NMP
I dont know if you have read "The Heroism and tragady of the Zulu war 1879 by Saul David" but i think i could have read it in their. It is definatly not in Snooks book but maybe Zulu Rising.


Regards DB14 Idea

It is covered in ZR. If you have not read ZR yet DB14, it is well worth doing so.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:36 pm

Hi tasker,
Sorry maye could you please Elaborate on ZR please.

Regards DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:38 pm

Tasker do you mean Zulu Rising?
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:20 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker do you mean Zulu Rising?

Beg your pardon DB14, i do, yes.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:19 pm

It seems another part of Colour was discovered.

This is from Blacks report first report.

" The colour belt of the 1st/24th was found by Corporal Groschky of the Natal Police."

Why is this not mentioned in any other report or was the belt usless???

Cheers DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:44 pm

Quote :
"" The colour belt of the 1st/24th was found by Corporal Groschky of the Natal Police."

Does it say where it was found. If it was found at Isandlwana doe's it give the area where it was found.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:12 pm

Hi Chelmsfordthescapegoat,

This report is mentioned in the Black report in Mike Snooks book on Rorkes drift it says " close to the small heap of dead bodies, the colour belt of the 1st/24th was found."

I think this is the last stand of H company because it says 68 corpes where found, the same number in Wardles last stand.

They where " in the left rear of the 1st/24th, near the officers mess-tent."


Cheers DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:38 pm

Can anyone post a copy of Black's report,stating this. The original text. Not from the book DB14 mentions.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:30 am

Saul David
That statement was made by Norris Newman in 'With the British throughout the war in Zululand', it is atributed to an 'eye witness. Page 123 in the original book.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:12 am

springbok9 wrote:
Saul David
That statement was made by Norris Newman in 'With the British throughout the war in Zululand', it is atributed to an 'eye witness. Page 123 in the original book.

Regards
Page 139 in the modern Leonaur edition.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:31 am

Hi Mr David,

It comes from Major Blacks first report on the battlefield of Isandlwana.

Page 227 of " Like Wolves On The Fold ."

Cheers
DB14
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:05 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Saul David
That statement was made by Norris Newman in 'With the British throughout the war in Zululand', it is atributed to an 'eye witness. Page 123 in the original book.

Regards
The statement is in Norris-Newman but it isn't his. Norris-Newman states "Colonel Black had volunteered, obtained permission, and actually visited the scene of the disaster at Isandwhlana [author's spelling]. An eye-witness gave the following account of the patrol:"
Norris-Newman then quotes Black's first report in full but doesn't actually name Black as the author.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Maybe a silly question. But has it ever been confirmed that the missing colours were at Isandlwana in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   

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The Missing Colours Isandlwana
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