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Major-General Sir William Penn Symons
( Isandula Collection)
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 The Missing Colours Isandlwana

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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:43 pm

Yes Littlehand both Colours of the 2nd Battalion where definatly at Isandlwana in the Gaurd Tent.

I can think of at least 5 books that say so here are some

How can men die better

Like wolves on the fold

The washing of the spears


Cheers
DB14
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Saul David 1879



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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:55 pm

But doe's it mention the authors sources, of the books you mention, or are talking hearsay evidence.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:22 pm

Mr David,

Like Wolves On The Fold containes the full reports from Major Wilson Black on
his returns to isandlwana.

They are very detailed and well worth reading, hopefully another member can scan
page 277 on the forum so we can all read it.

Hope this helps

Cheers
DB14
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:35 pm

Here is a couple of snipits from the first report

"The greatest number counted together within a very small compass was 68, and these where in the left
rear of the 1st/24th, near the officers mess-tent."

"It was considered that it would be 3 or 4 weeks before the bones could be collected and buried. Were an attempt to be made to do so now, nothing could be done but to throw earth over the corpes. Close to the small heap of dead bodies before mentioned the Colour belt of the 1st 24th was found by Corporal Groschky, Natal Police; it was the most intresting thing found, though not perhaps the most valuable, as Captain Symons found a large bundle of cheques belonging to him that had not been opened."

Sorry about spelling i have just hand typed it out the book.


Hope it maybe of some use

Cheers
DB14
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:46 pm

Just out of interest.

"In July 2003, the Group was presented with replica Colours of the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot. The original Queen's and Regimental Colours were lost at Isandlwana and were never found (incidentally, those of the 1st Battalion are laid up in Brecon Cathedral). The 2nd 24th replicas were the result of research by two members of the group, Roger Manning and Duncan McDonald, who worked closely with both the Regiment and also the College of Heralds. Funded by group members, the Colours were produced in Pakistan by military embroiderers. They were formally presented to the group by Mrs Shan Legg-Bourke, then Lord Lieutenant of Powys, Mrs Penelope Bourdillon, then High Sheriff of Powys, Brigadier Robert Aitkin (160 Brigade), and the Group's Honorary Colonel, Timothy Van Rees. It is a tremendous and unique honour for the group to hold these Colours."

Source: 1879Group.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:47 pm

There is also this

" The gaurd tent of the 2nd/24th was first searched, in hopes of finding some trace of
the 2 Colours left there on the morning of the 22nd of January. The tent, Colours, and belts had all
been taken away."

Hope this helps Mr David

Cheers DB14
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NMP

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:54 am

Saul David 1879 wrote:
Can anyone post a copy of Black's report,stating this. The original text. Not from the book DB14 mentions.

From Norris-Newman's In Zululand with the British Army:

Quote :
An eye-witness gave the following account of the patrol : —
"On Friday, the 14th of March, a party of volunteers, under
Lientenant-Colonel Black, 2-24th Regiment, consisting of
Captain Symons. Captain Harvey, Lieutenant Banister, and
Sergeant Tigar, of the 2-24th, Commandant Cooper, and twelve
officers of the Natal Native Contingent, and ten of the Natal
Mounted Police, left Rorke's Drift, at 7 a.m., crossed the Buffalo
on the pont, and rode through the Bashee Valley to make a
reconnoissance of the camp at Isandwhlana. The scouts in
advance saw fires burning in the kraals in the Bashee Valley, and
disturbed three armed men with guns near the drift at the foot of
the Isandwhlana Hill, who ran off at the approach of the party.
Arrived on the now well-known and oft-described 'ridge,' a
horrible scene of desolation was spread before them, and the
still highly-tainted air filled their nostrils. After posting vedettes
on all sides to guard against a surprise, they proceeded systemati-
cally to examine the whole of the battle-field. Some thirty
Zulus were seen running from the kraal in front of the camp,
and when out of sight they fired several shots, with the inten-
tion, no doubt, of giving the alarm, and shortly afterwards
signal-fires were seen burning on the hills. The Guard-tent of
the 2-24th Regiment was first searched, in hopes of finding
some trace of the two colours of the regiment, which had been
left there on the morning of the 22nd of January last. The
tent, colours, and belts had all been taken away.
They next
searched each camp in detail, and afterwards rode down by
the side of the 'donga' that ran in front of the camp; and
then still farther afield, where the different incidents and phases
of the terrible battle were supposed to have taken place, and
observed the following: The Zulu dead had all been removed.
The waggons to the number of over 100 were uninjured, and
stood for the most part where they were left. All the tents
had been burnt, cut up and taken away, the poles only
being left. Everything of value had been looted, and what
had not been taken away had been stabbed vrith assegais.
Sponges, boots, brushes of all descriptions, quantities
of books, papers, photographs, gaiters, and various other
articles were scattered about. Horses and mules were lyingy
still tied to the piquet-ropes and waggons, and a good many
skeletons of oxen were scattered here and there. The bodies
of our poor brave soldiers showed where the fury of the enemy
had overtaken them. They were all in and about the camp, or
down the path the fugitives took; not a dozen could be found
in the whole surrounding of the camp, nor in the 'donga,'
bearing out tiie testimony of survivors, who relate that while
the soldiers held the donga they suffered no loss. The greatest
number counted lying together within a very small compass was
sixty-eighty and these were in the left rear of the lst/24th, near
the officers' mess-tent. The majority were 24th men, but there
were some of other arms as well. As regards the state of the
bodies, a subject of morbid but painful interest, they were in
all conditions of horrible decay. Some were perfect skeletons;
others that had not been stripped, or only partially so, were
quite unapproachable, and the stench was sickening; with but
few exceptions, it was impossible to recognise any one, and the
only officer that was seen was discovered by his clothes. It was
considered that it would be three to four weeks before the bones
could be collected and buried. Were an attempt to be made to
do so now nothing could be done but to throw earth over the
corpses. Close to the small heap of dead bodies before men-
tioned, the colour-belt of the 1st/24th Regiment was found by
Corporal Ghroschky, Natal Mounted Police; it was the most
interesting thing found,
though not perhaps the most valuable,
as Captain Symons found a large bundle of cheques belonging
to him that had not been opened. Having thoroughly searched
the camp, they proceeded to look for the two guns. One limber
was found on the road leading down the valley towards the
Izipesi Mountain, about a quarter of a mile to the front of
the camp. The other limber, much broken, was found lying
in the ravine where Lieutenant Curling, B.A., described the
guns as having been upset and lost; and the team of six
horses, all harnessed together, was lying by it; the ravine was
so steep that one or two of the horses were suspended by the
harness over the stream; both the guns and carriages had been
removed. This ravine is about half a mile from 'the ridge,'
and numbers of bodies were lying between the two. On the
order to retire being given, the party returned by the same
road, being twice fired upon, without effect, by two small parties
of natives; once as they were leaving the ravine, and the
second time from the 'krantzes' above the Bashee Valley."
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:50 pm

As Jackson found the missing order, I have found the missing colours. Salute

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Saul David 1879



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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:03 pm

Very interesting post LH. And there's is of course no reason to doubt it. Just need verifying, but I'm sure you will be searching for a link Salute
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:20 pm

Was there a Colonel Talbot in the 2nd 24th regiment.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:44 pm

littlehand wrote:
As Jackson found the missing order,

LH

What do you mean by missing order ?

Jackson found an order from the 19th of January and the Orders to column commanders along with a whole load of
other iteams such as Molife's account of Isandlwana and some maps by Henderson.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:26 pm

Correct! Jackson found that, LH found this. Ithat parts a joke DB. He having a laugh.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:17 am

Interesting post LH. There are a few names in the picture. I'll have a look about, see if I can find anything. Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The missing colours iSandlwana   Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:48 pm

Hi all.

It appears to be a mystery of how the colours got to Paris, also If the remains of the colours were handed over to Col Talbot by the Baron St George, how come no one seems to know much about all this, and why is there nothing mentioned in various books and other publications about the lost colours being found, surely historians would have discovered something about this during their research, and above all, where are they now?

Rather odd I think, but as always, another interesting post LH.

Salute
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:26 pm

Well, I have spend days looking for a connection to those mentioned in the artical. Can't find nothing in connection with the colours. I'm away for a few days, but will continue the search when I get back. If anyone finds anything please post. Salute
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:33 pm

Quote :
littlehand wrote:
As Jackson found the missing order,
LH

What do you mean by missing order ?

Jackson found an order from the 19th of January and the Orders to column commanders along with a whole load of
other iteams such as Molife's account of Isandlwana and some maps by Henderson.

How long was it in the draw, before Jackson found it.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The missing colours iSandlwana   Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:56 pm

Hi LH.

I also have been searching online for any information about these 'missing colours', and like your good self, I cannot find anything.

I wonder if it was a 'tall tale' put about by someone unknown, and found it's way into the newspaper? scratch

Salute
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:13 am

So we have another un- solved mystery Suspect
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The missing colours iSandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:25 am

Hi Chard.

Well, it does look a bit like that doesn't it.

I would have thought that with all the historians and researchers that delve into great detail about all things AZW, that someone would have discovered something about all this business with the 'missing colours', and if the article in the newspaper was genuine, then where are these colours now?

Very odd isn't it. scratch

Salute
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:49 am

All

If the Colour had really been found in Paris, then I'm sure it wiould have ultimately found its way back to the Regiment. No, as far as the Regiment is concerned, both Colours of the 2/24th were lost at Isandlwana, and never recovered. With regard to the newspaper article, I wonder if the story originally comes from the episode where the Colours of the 69th Regiment (later 2/Welch) which were lost at Quatre Bras and later re-appeared in a French chateau ?

Bill
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm

Hi all

I had a phone call this morning that reminded me of something that is probably quite relevant. We do have in the museum a "fake" regimental colour that was supposed to be that of the 2/24th. After some investigation it was clarified that this colour was in fact the result of a needlework exercise done while the Regiment was in India. This is probably the one that went via Paris !

Bill
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:14 pm

Excellent work Bill. Mystery solved... I do remember a post on the forum, where it was mentioned that an officers wife, was quite handy with a needle and thread..
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: The missing colours iSandlwana   Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:04 pm

Good work Bill, very well done.

I had been pondering about this for some time, and during my searches I found that this might have something to do with the old 69th.

The 69th was the old 2nd Btn of the 24th foot, it was redesignated the 69th in 1758, then in 1782 it became the 69th (South Lincolnshire) regiment. It was the 2nd Btn 69th (South Lincolnshire) regiment that fought at Quatre Bras, it could not form square in time before the cavalry attacked and lost many men and its colours, this was blamed on the Prince of Orange. The 2nd Btn 69th (South Lincolnshire) regiment ceased to exist in 1816, and the 1st Btn 69th (South Lincolnshire) regiment was later to become part of the Welch under the government (Childers) reforms of 1881. So there is a link with the 24th foot, as the 69th was the old 2nd Btn of the 24th foot, but was redesignated the 69th in 1758.

Again Bill, well done.

Martin.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The Missing Colours Isandlwana   Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:50 pm

It is said that the tents were searched. Would there have been any left standing, i thought some were carried away, others burned.
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