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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:31 pm

But had those men in the Compaines heading towards Durnford completely run out of ammuntion, or we're they firing as they went. Keep the Zulus at bay long enough for them to complete the journey.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:01 pm

24th
No I dont believe they had run out of ammo, very very low yes.
Then, to speculate, if they had got to Durnford ( and we know they did because their bodies were found there ) and Durnford was at or near the ammo wagons ( again we know he was by the position of his body in relation to the officers tents, its mentioned by Black) again the officers tents were adjacent to the regimental wagons. The man in charge of the ammo was in the same area. The initial force Carbineers NMR etc had been fighting of the left horn long enough for that band of imperial soldiers to get across the battlefield, so they had ammo.
Isnt it then feasable that the soldiers got a re supply from the same source ?
If we can remotly accept that theory then the other bits and pieces start to fit, eg: the various zulu statements on the blistering firepower and the ability of portion of the troops to still fight their way to the stream. Looking at the diposition of the grave areas, that huge grouping around Durnford, 160 odd men, the equally large group on the ridge of the saddle and the large number of cairns running down to the Manzimyama. The fight couldnt be sustained because of the over whelming forces oposing them, and highly possibly seperating them from th ammo supply.
The main point I make however is still the Durnford group had to have been resupplied. There is no proof, there are n o suvivors reports there is no personal observation, just a touch of Sherlock type aproach in adding 1 and 1 to get 2. And isnt that what most of history is about?

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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:45 pm

Mitford's observations, should be taken into consideration. Especially when he talks about the cartridges.

"I particularly noticed that none of these unexploded cases were to be found on the outskirts of the field, all there having been fired off not until one got upon the site of the actual camp did they become plentiful, pointing, if anything, to the fact that the fight in camp was hand to hand, our men being rushed before they had time to fire many shots, whereas those forming the outer lines of defence would have had plenty. And the above circumstance seems to make against the idea that there was any faikire of ammunition."
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:00 pm

Hi Ray
That could go either way, it could offer proof as Mitford says that ammo within the camp was plentiful. There is the alternate view that the zulus smashed open the cases for their own use and spilt onto the ground. There was a notation some where ( cant remember where) that cartridge cases unfired where found with the round removed. This so the zulu could use the gunpowder in their older guns.

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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:16 pm

Quote :
There was a notation some where ( cant remember where) that cartridge cases unfired where found with the round removed. This so the zulu could use the gunpowder in their older guns.

Yes that's from the same book, he discovered bullet heads, with the impressions of teeth marks, the Zulu's torn the heads off to get at the powder using their teeth.

We know the Ammuntion was in the camp area, so it would have been plentifull. He then says.

Quote :
"whereas those forming the outer lines of defence would have had plenty"
Which would suggest those soldiers had more than their allocated issue. Which then suggests ammunition was being distrubtuted to the outer Compaines.

I do recall someone saying that every man was ordered to the front. Not sure what time that would have happened, but I can only imagine, there was only few left in the camp, Grooms ect, when the line broke those rushing back to the camp, either for ammuntion or to escape were closely chased by the on coming Zulus. Which fits in with Mitford saying "
Quote :
if anything, to the fact that the fight in camp was hand to hand, our men being rushed before they had time to fire many shots"
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:50 pm

Was the argument not put forward by 90th, that the ammuntion inquestion could have got to where in was found by Mitford in numberous ways, one being the Zulus themselves. Taking ammo boxes from the camp to break open.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Dave unlikely. According to the account posted by Ray63. Used rounds were found outside the camp, and live rounds inside. Unless someone sorted out the used from the live and dumped them on the firing lines.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:13 am

Dave
I would agree with 90th. Its highly likely that ammunition could have been carried around the battlefield by the zulus after wards. Shoe brushes were found on the ridge so yep highly possible.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:41 am

springbok9 wrote:
Dave
I would agree with 90th. Its highly likely that ammunition could have been carried around the battlefield by the zulus after wards. Shoe brushes were found on the ridge so yep highly possible.

Cheers

hi some very interesting points....perhaps if the colours had been unfolded..perhaps around ammunition waggan...a larger stand could of been made...why was the colours not used to rally troops
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:47 am

Yes especially since it's what he used normally !
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lamplight52



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:49 am

Dave wrote:
Was the argument not put forward by 90th, that the ammuntion inquestion could have got to where in was found by Mitford in numberous ways, one being the Zulus themselves. Taking ammo boxes from the camp to break open.

test firing of the Martini henry apparently show that in quick repeated firing the the breach go that hot that cartridges got jammed in the breach..where upon there had to be extracted using baynet or some other implement to hand. durnford is known o have used his one good hand to extract these cartridge cases for his troops,as his one good hand was that much more stronger then normal,..if all this is true...this would of certainly helped the zulu come to close quarter action...
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:13 am

And they were also helped by a herd of cattle Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:34 am

Master Pullen (Quarter-Master
Has Master Pullen, been missed off the list of those who received recognition for their actions at Isandlwana like Younghusband. He was known to have rallied some men and made a last stand. But nothing is really mentioned about this. It could have been him and his men who were the last to fall, possibly one of them made it to the cave where the last of the 24th supposedly died?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:36 pm

Chard
I think the only mention of Pullen is by Brickhill, Mike Snook credits him with helping to organise the stand with Durnford. I cant of hand pin point any other mention, do you have something?

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:52 pm

only a mention of Pullen ! Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:13 pm

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Positions (E) & (F) Can anyone point out the positions on the map.

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:54 am

All conjecture LH but, they were part of the firing line facing to the North. Against the mountain was Younghusband, then probably Shepstone then E and F.
After the battle, at the position of the present memorial on the saddle I think one or two identifications were made in that area.

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:26 am

F ) Marker. Who would that have been Younghusband or Shepstone.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:43 am

Sorry LH thought you were refering to E and F companies.
On the map E is at Durnfords Donga, bottom right of your map. F is slightly to the right of the word Line ( as in Defensive Line ) its also marked as C co 1/24

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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:12 am

Well I'm stuffed if I can find E or F and I've been using a magnifying glass ! Shocked  Shocked 
Cheers 90th Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:21 am

90th
Firstly its the Narrative map.
There is a dog leg showing the companies in position. Where it bends to come down the page there is the Guns then 1/24th the F is right gainst the 1/24.
Bottom right is the position of Durnford, the E is written between the donga and the shaded representation of the troop.

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:09 pm

Here is E

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and here is F

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Steve
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:27 pm

Hi Steve.
Thanks for blowing those up , I must be going blind ! . I couldnt bloody well see them even with a magnifying glass ! No 
Cheers 90th Shocked 
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:44 pm

Your welcome 90th. This is from an original  copy of the Narrative held in Aldershot Public Library - it is ex Sandhurst, so makes you wonder what great military minds have pondered over the text in the intervening years !

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Steve
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:21 pm

rusteze. Thank you!!!!

Gent's I'm working late tonight, can anyone tell me if Black mentions theses locations in his report. Ref: His visit to the Battlefield. Mainly looking at (F) Location!
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:43 pm

LH. Why the interest in ( F ) location. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:13 pm

I fairly sure Black report states that loads of empty cartridges were found in one place where the 24th bodies were. Or along those lines?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am

LH
On the Mainwaring map November 79.
Point H ( F on the Narrative Map) 'Strewn with empty shell cases.'

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:40 am

Springbok, do we know how many men would have been a F location. And did they at any point full bak from that position.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:12 am

LH
Its on the left of the rocky ridge, the narrative map merely says co(mpany) 1/24. Lower down on the ridge is the position CS Wolff was found. I would think it was H company with G company lower down the ridge to the south. H was under Wardell, Jackson puts Dyer there as well, alongside/in front was Lonsdales men. So in terms of a guestimate, H company at aprox 80 men, Lonsdales 9 company 1/3NNC aprox 130 any Dyers 60. So potentially there could have been 170 men in that vicinity. We also know from accounts that Lonsdales men were there close to the end ( Malindis statements )
They had to have fallen back due to the absence of a significant amount of graves there. We do know that CS Wolffs body with twenty of his men were found there. Wardell and Dyer were found with Durnford below Blacks Koppie with 150 men, mostly 24th troops.
Hope that helps
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:28 pm

Approx 170 men X 70 rounds per man = 11,900 rounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:45 pm

It's absolutely mind boggling just how much ammuntion was available. 
When they say " Old Steady Shots" do they mean how slowly they fired.
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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:13 am

Littlehand .
It's pure speculation , but there probably wasnt as you worked out 11, 900 rounds expended in that area , due to the fact there weren't any significant graves in that area , which means many had fallen back and must've had rounds with them during their withdrawl to where they finished up , then running out of Ammo , were butchered where they stood .

CTSG .
'' Old Steady Shots '' certainly implies that they were experienced ( Which we know many of them were ) , and more than likely didnt fire their ammo off at an absurd rate . To have fallen back as far as they did they obviously used their ammo wisely one would think .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:31 am

I'm assuming LH is referring to the empty cartridges found among the boulders shown on the map he posted under location (f) Not graves!

Possibly the men did fall back, but did they have enough ammo to do so?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:33 am

90th
We know from Malindi that he was resuplying his men, sit possible that the figu[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]res are close.
The Rocky Ridge reffered to.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:36 am

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Same area looking down onto the plain

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:42 am

Springy. Those boulders in the last photo, is that where the cartridges were found, In great quantities.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:47 am

CTSG
Yep thats the area.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:24 am

Hi CTSG .
I'm well aware littlehand is referring to cartridges not graves , if you read my post again you may understand .
Or simpler , if there were 11,900 empty cartridges in the area one would think there would be many bodies as well , due to the fact the 170 would've expended their 70 rounds = 11,900 , basically meaning the troops had no ammo left to facilitate their withdrawal and would.ve been butchered on that spot ! , do you understand my post now ? . scratch 
90th Rolling Eyes 
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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:38 am

Hi Springy .
I doubt very much that there were anything like 11,900 cartridges in that area , we know from other Battles like Khambula , Gingindlovhu & Ulundi that the rates of fire were not quick , they were called the old steady shots because they didnt fire off rounds quickly , many of them were experienced troops . I doubt those 170 were in the same area long enough to have fired of the said rounds , going by expenditure from the other battles those 170 men would needed to have been in that same spot firing away for 10 hours or so ! , as you can see the time required to exhaust those rounds didnt happen , wasnt it over in 2 hrs or less ? . From memory there were only 6 -8 per hour fired at the other battles , Isandlwana by most reports was over fairly quickly , so allowing for that those 170 men wouldnt have fired off 70 rounds before withdawing , the time doesnt stack up .
Cheers 90th Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:01 am

I was pointing out the amount of rounds that was available! I didn't mean that amount of cartridges were found there. We know they fell back. I was looking along the lines of we're they resupplied? Possibly didn't need to be. Between them they had more that enough to fall back?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:21 am

90th
Im pretty sure the expending rate was a lot more than 6-8 per hour. On that basis there would have been around 1000 rounds spread over nearly 200 metres, 5 to the meter hardly a great concentration. Or would it be worth calling a great concentration. Again reading Malindi, they expended there amunition and were re plenished. Im pretty sure if they were then so were the redcoats.
Popes phrase, "we were giving it to them hot."
H company, moving forward to the edge of the ridge to fire down into the packed ranks.
CS Wolff and 20 men as the rearguard, banging away like mad.
Pretty sure the quantity of cartridges would have been in the thousands.

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:22 am

LH
Malindi specifically states they were re supplied.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:42 pm

Hi Springy .
As usual much conjecture about Isandlwana , we wouldnt have it any other way would we ?
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:31 pm

agree 
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:37 pm

Would other Compaines have been providing covering fire for the fall back of the Compaines inquestion.  Or would it have been to late?
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:40 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Springy .
I doubt very much that there were anything like 11,900 cartridges in that area , we know from other Battles like Khambula , Gingindlovhu & Ulundi that the rates of fire were not quick , they were called the old steady shots because they didnt fire off rounds quickly , many of them were experienced troops .  I doubt those 170 were in the same area long enough to have fired of the said rounds , going by expenditure from the other battles those 170 men would needed to have been in that same spot firing away for 10 hours or so ! , as you can see the time required to exhaust those rounds didnt happen , wasnt it over in 2 hrs or less ? . From memory there were only 6 -8 per hour fired at the other battles , Isandlwana by most reports was over fairly quickly , so allowing for that
those 170 men wouldnt have fired off 70 rounds before withdawing, the time doesnt stack up .
Cheers 90th Salute 
90th At Isandlwana a man under those conditions would have used his 70 rounds in just under 12 mins based on 6 rounds per min When you consider where they were, the firing would have been quite rapid. So it's plausible!
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:01 pm

I still think not enough emphasis is put on the fact that the Martini Henry rifle was prone to fowling & jamming. Can it really be accepted that there were no problems with the rifles. and would a man, really stop to un-jam a rifle with thousands of Zulu moving towards him. Or would he do the most practical thing, and run in the opposite direction. Do we not base the idea that there was no problems at Isandlwana because only one mentions having problems at RD. 
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:42 pm

Problem is of course there was no alive to complain?
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PostSubject: Isandlwana ; Last Stands    Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:04 am

Littlehand .
If you read my post slowly you'll see I'm talking of 6 - 8 shots fired per HOUR ! , not per minute as you posted ! scratch 
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