Rockape, welcome to the forum and the endless debate, hopw you enjoy.

My view point on the square!

We agree that Pullein, wrong or right, followed his orders in defending the camp. It was only well into the conflict that he would have realised what he was up against.

At that point he was dead. For him to recall the troops and get back to a place where he could physically form the square would have been a flat out run across the face of the mountain of the rocky ridge to an area some what above Popes last position. Bare in mind the tents were still up, the breakfast fires still burning, the space between the tents and the mountain was occupied by the company wagons. From the position of that square to the ammunition wagons would have still been a fair trek. In the time space available to him I doubt he could have got sufficient ammo into the centre. Further with 200 men per side, 3 deep and a space occupied of .9 of a meter ( 3 Feet) that would have been a frontage of 58 metre, less the depth of the lines on the ends of say 3 meter each. The space inside the square would have been in the region of 52 x 52. Could all the non combatants, horses and NNC been accomadated with sufficient space for the available ammo to be handled correctly?
A further point, there was in excess of 300 oxen plus the spare horses, these we know were driven over the saddle by the right horn. Could the square have stood up to that pounding?

The horse receiving square is just that, a defence against mounted lancers. Not meant for a defence against armed oponents who could have stood of and exchanged fire, it happened on the front line with certain effect.

Just a view point for discussion.

Regards

The Battle is the "Bermuda Triangle" of battles , too many unaswerable questions, too many fantastic tales of heroism and probably too sad and tragic for us too want to know the truth. Regular infantry accuracy at that time an upto the end of the 2nd Boer War was very poor, which may have contributed to the zulu being able to close so quickly onto the centre of the camp.
I always remember a retired British Senior Officer said on the battlefield tour
" It was poor bloody standards all round , not just a bungling Lord, 400 jocks would seen them off and the war would've been a mere skirmish"
I did have a chuckle !

Brilliant, thats made my day :lol!:

Regarding the last post by Rockape and Springbok, that was what I was trying to say in my post to Rob, by questioning the slim and fairly unlikely possibility of organising the various units into a laager, along with horses, etc., and knowing the Isandhlwana camp area terrain. You both explained it better. I like the quote by the retired British Senior Officer, it appealed to me greatly! :lol!:

Rockape

Indeed, Ive published some photos from Blood River earlier in this string, What you say has merit, but dont say it to loud on Dec 16th anywhere near Pretoria. :lol!:

Still chuckling about the Jocks story.

Ken Gillings is a forum member, he can send chills up your spine talking about the stories that guides tell. Few years back I was wandering around RD and over heard the guide telling a group that "this is the exact door that trooper sos and so was dragged out of".

Regards

Doe's anyone know how far "Harness" was to Isandlwana,before he was stopped by Gosset. .
Would the Zulus at Isandlwana have seen him coming. Or could they have received reports from Zulu scouts that he was making his way back the camp.

Littlehand i believe he had only covered a distence of 2 miles before turning back.



Cheers

Hi Littlehand.
DB14 is correct , Harness says they hadnt quite gone two miles when they were ordered to return to the campsite at Mangeni .
From memory they were 9 miles or so from Isandlwana so travelled nearly two which brings the distance to seven miles from Isandlwana , doubtful they would have been spotted by zulu scouts , and if so they wouldnt have been within threat range
for them to worry about to much . Would have been different if they had kept going and werent called back , no doubt Harness
would've '' had a battle on his hands '' one in which he would have lost ......sadly .
cheers 90th.

At twelve o'clock upon the day of the Isandhlwana disaster, Colonel Harness, with four guns R.A., two companies of the 24th Regiment, and about fifty Natal sappers, halted upon a rising ground more than eight miles from the camp, heard the firing of cannon, and saw shells hissing against the hills to the left of it. One messenger from the camp reached him with the tidings that the camp was surrounded, and would be taken unless they were at once reinforced. Colonel Harness pro- posed instantly to march back, and, although Major Gossett ridiculed the idea, he started. Riding off to the General, Major Gossett returned with Lord Chelmsford's orders to Colonel Harness to turn back and march to the rendezvous.

“I have heard from an officer 16th Lancers that Colonel Harness himself told him the story of his recall at VOL. H. M M Isandhlwana exactly as I described it to you in a former letter, adding that the recall came from Lord Chelmsford upon the representations of Major Gossett. In order to have this fact upon record, will not some M.P. take a note of it to ask whether the statement is correct, and why it was not included in the report of the Commission of Inquiry ? ... It has been suggested that the reason why the Zulus fell back after their first attack . . . was that they saw Colonel Harness's force making for the camp."
Source Bishop Colenso.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Photos by SirDCC

Amazing where are thses from is it a documentry or something???????/


Cheers DB14

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t1451-the-last-of-the-24th

Here's a couple of different versions. One on "Younghusband" and the Famous last of the 24th Myth.

"Captain Younghusband’s company, tried to defend a shoulder of Isandlwana itself, until lack of ammunition forced them to try and join the others on the saddle below."

"It is difficult to be precise about the time the battle ended. The stands in the camp were probably largely over by about 3.00pm, although fighting in the Manzimnyama probably continued until some time later. Small groups of soldiers, and individuals, were able to survive late into the afternoon where they had been able to find a place to shelter, behind wagons or among rocks. Able-Seaman Aynsley - the only sailor in the camp, the servant of Chelmsford’s Naval ADC, Lt Milne - stood with his back to a wagon-wheel, challenging the Zulus with his cutlass, until a warrior crept under the wagon and stabbed him through the spokes. Some men feigned death, only to be discovered when the Zulus began to strip the bodies. Another man, presumably a survivor of Younghusband’s stand, broke away from the main party when it descended the rocky shoulder, and instead clambered up to a small cave at the foot of the cliffs behind. Crouching down among the boulders, he shot or stabbed every Zulu who approached him, until at last the warriors fired a volley into the cave, and killed him."

Source unknown.

Would this help. Located where it was presumed Younghusband & Company last stand took place.

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t980-alfred-boast-report-13th-march-1883-map-of-grave-locations?highlight=Alfred

"The ground is high and full of dongas and stones, and the soldiers did not see us till we were right upon them. They fought well — a lot of them got up on the steepslope under the cliff behind the camp, and the Zulus could not get at them at all ; they were shot or bayoneted as fast as they came up. At last the soldiers gave a shout and charged down upon us. There was an induna ^ in front of them with a long flashing sword, which he whirled round his head as he ran — it must have been made of fire. "Supposed to be Captain Younghusband". Wheiigh ! (Here the speaker made an expressive gesture of shading the eyes.) They killed themselves by running down, for our people got above them and quite surrounded them ; these, and a group of white men on the " neck," were the last to fall".
Source: ITS BATTLEFIELDS AND ITS PEOPLE. Mitford

The number of British soldiers involved at Isandhlwana is irrelevant. Do not forget that H coy alone held off 10,000 Gaikas the previous year simply by forming a square. Gaikas aren't Zulus it is true but the principle remains. Whether Chelmsford's reconnaissance had never left camp or not would have made no difference to the final outcome if the same troop dispositions had been adopted.
Against a straight line front the Zulus would always win. Against a defensive square they always lost.

Square ? Then you're getting back into the area of Pulliene's orders again, to defend the camp. I'm no fan of Pulliene or his decisions and actions, but he took that literally to mean the whole camp. That's why he put the wall of 24th in the Zulu path, obviously overlooking the possibility of there being the full 20,000, being enough warriors to outflank him with the two horns. The firing line might have worked had he positioned it further back, allowing Durnford to come right back to camp with his two Troops. 'Gaikas aren't Zulus it is true' - very true, there had been nothing like the Zulus, so to compare them with each other would be wrong. Julian, it's been quite a while since I've discussed things with you, but somehow you appear different, in tone and argument. I don't know what it is about you now that I can explain. It is you isn't it ?

A question

If the ground was to hard to dig in then how did all the burial parties bury all the dead???

The ground cant have just become soft enough over the 4 months can it

Cheers
DB14

He even if he didnt thin the camp was in danger he still could have set up ammuntion stations or struck the tents at the front of the camp.

Tasker, if you could dig 400 graves then you could have at least dug some rifle pits or something.


Cheers
DB14

DB14. some areas were better suited than others, but the graves were very shallow, bones getting washed out and appearing for years afterwards. I think it was Bromhead's brother at a later time, collected all the loose bones and placed them in bags and reburied them. I guess in some cases the places the graves/cairns are, weren't necessarily where the men buried below were initially found. I'm sure I was informed that there was the chance Maj. Russell's remains and anyone with him further out from the camp, may have been transferred back to the immediate camp area for burial, as I don't recall any cairns being found that far out. If there was, they are lost now.

But the 400 graves that where dug where done all over Isandlwana, the colum had all its tools and supplies at the camp, they could easily have dug some type of fortification at the front of the camp or a line to run back to. This would have taken time, probebly around 5 hours but they had that time to do something at least.

Its unfair to say Pulliene should have laarged or formed square.

The square wasnt used anymore and a laarger should have been done before the 22nd.

In 1884 the remains where removed and buried once and for all in graves around 1.5 meters deep.


Cheers
DB14

This is a good point. A vast deference between British and Colonial soldiers. I wonder if there was ever a consideration for court marshals, but it view of what to place, maybe they thought it best not to pursue.

Quote:

"Of fifty five European survivors from Isandlwana at least sixteen were officers which in effect represented a truly uncomfortably high proportion inconsistent with what would be expected by any commander particularly in this case Chelmsford and Wolseley. All officers managed to escape by horse as the four mile run through the Zulu gauntlet to the Natal border was practically impossible by foot. As the fugitives from Isandlwana fled to safety in Natal, Captains Gardner and Essex, Lieutenants Cochrane, Curling and Smith-Dorrien safely made their way to Helpmekaar and avoided involvement in any further conflict that day

."

Mr Greaves
Your numbers are wrong.
87 Europeans and 90 Africans survived Isandhlwana, possibly another 4 Europeans.
Of these 19 officers survived.

As far as Im aware there were 298 graves. Approx 40 of which no longer exist.
In terms of outlaying bodies been brought back into the camp, its highly possible, evidence has it that CS Wolff died on the rocky ridge, but there are no cairns in that position.

DB14
Why would Pullein have wanted to dig fortifications? He was under no threat, theoretically. To all intents and purpose Chelmsford had moved out of camp to engage the enemy.
If there was a need to entrench, his superiors would have done so.

Regards

DB14
Why would Pullein have wanted to dig fortifications? He was under no threat, theoretically. To all intents and purpose Chelmsford had moved out of camp to engage the enemy.
If there was a need to entrench, his superiors would have done so.


Thats what i ment, Chelsmford could have done this, and didnt.

To say Durnford and Pulliene should have done anything like that is unfair.

Cheers
DB14