Was there really any last stands. Or are we speculating because so many of the dead were found together in certain areas in and around the Battlefield. We have evidence that men and officers left the Battlefield when they saw all war lost. Most of them being on horseback. After reading this indepth discussion I'm drawn to the conclusion that there was mass panic and theses last stands were in-fact groups of men trying the hardest to get away from the carnage. It's human instinct to run as a pack when being pursued safety in numbers hoping the bloke next to you will get caught first giving you a bit more time to escape. The fact that men from other regiments were found among the dead of other regiment only proves that men were joining with other groups regardless of who they were. With regards to Younghusband's last stand, it would have been if they had died where they held their ground but they didn't they panic and ran down only in the hope they could break through and get away to safety.

LH

If they paniced, then how did they withdrawl over 800 yards to the camp with 15,000 Zulus after them ??

They died in comapny rally squares.



Cheers

70 men of the 24th were found in the Saddle

68 behind the 1/24th tents, Captain Wardle and Lt Dyer being recognized

50 in the 2/24th tents

60 under the Southern crags of Isandlwana, Younghusband being recognized

40 down the fugitives drift, Lt Anstey being recogized

20 men including Colour-Sergant Wolfe on the firing line

Most of G company near the little Donga's

20 or so redcoats fell around Col. Durnford

Then make allowances for the 30 or 40 shot down during the retreat and those
20 or so that died at the rear of Anstey's running fight.




Cheers

Hi Julian.
Just a couple of points , you say Crystal Ball , I say objectiveness . No mention in any survivor accounts that Canvas Bags or improvised slings carried ammunition to the front . As for the carts being tipped over etc , You posted previously that the officers on the firing line wouldnt leave the carts or ammunition at the firing line ,
As I posted in an earlier debate if the troops were trying to bring the carts back to the camp and help the mules who may have fallen as you put it , it would certainly take a few rifles out of firing line , agreed ? .As for the 100 rds theory , no-one thought the camp was to be attacked did they ? . There isnt any mention that the extra 30 were issued , by any of the survivors reports , also no mention from the the survivors that Degcher and / or Melvill thought an attack would take place . I'm fairly certain they couldnt take it upon themselves to distribute the extra 30 rds could they ? .I cant
argue with your sources but I do remain dubious regarding the whole aspect of re - supply .
cheers 90th. :Salute.

PS. I dont wish to cause any friction between all of us involved in this , as they say healthy debate . Julian I hope you dont take this debate personally .

And point being, that the officers you mention we're in-commard. It's doesn't say they organised the last stand they were running with the rest, those that had no where to run had no choice but to died. The British soldier was a killing machine with a rifle, when individuals ammunition ran out it was then down to hand to hand. Which the Zulus were at better at.

I would say just everyone that could, including the British.

They're treated to join the biggest crowd. To then it would have been the most logical place to go. Where the ammunition was.

Littlehand
For once I have to disagree with you. I dont believe there was a general panic, individuals most certainly, but not a mass issue. The groups of men were to my mind admirably lead by their officers during the retreats across the battlefields. There are accounts of officers being passed by escaping units and waving cheerfully, Lt Pat Daly springs to mind.
The only remote chance you have of accusing an officer of running away would be Essex, Gardner, Smith Dorean, Cochran or Curling.

90th
Speaking for myself, I wouldnt take healthy debate personally, love it. Some you win some you loose.........bit like the English Cricket team, or is that some you loose and some you loose?

Steve
Enjoyed those titbits.

DB 14

What about those on the back of the saddle?

Tasker

To put the battlefield into perspective log onto Google Earth, the area is crystal clear, showing the mountain, conical hill the dongas and the cairns.
It will make your understanding of the area a tad better.

DB14

Im really suprised that you havent done the above allready?

Pascal
Possibly its my total lack of gallic undestanding but some times i really do not have a clue what your on about, for instances" The zulus moved the bodies". Why on earth would they want to do that?

Great Debate one and all now its time for a and a

The British were retreating using what ammunition they had.
Again they had no choice but to fall back the Zulu were pushing them back. They may have delayed the Zulus "Stop" is the wrong word.
As soon as it was realised that all was lost those that could escape did, for the others they had no choice but to form up in groups this was only for self preservation, for all we know some these groups. may well have tryed to surrendered only to be killed.

By the time the 24th got back to camp, most of the men who would survive had already fled.

My point exactly. The men retreating back to camp wasn't to know this. at that point groups broke off trying to escape Astey being a good example if he had as you believe made a last stand, I think he would have selected better ground to do so.

They didn't choose a spot, they were trapped in the camp by the horns they had no where to go.

Anstey was trying to save the rements of his Company, he died in a rally square of 40 when they were finaly surounded.

[quote="littlehand"]

Quote:

And that,s why they were no last stands as we believe a last stand to be. They were trapped.

The NC and NMP could all have escpaed, but chooses to die a hero's death.

Every man had a last stand that day.

Hi all

Regarding the 100 rounds of ammo, I was under the impression that the men carried 20 packed rounds per pouch = 40 rounds, and 30 loose rounds in the expense pouch, making a total of 70 rounds. If they carried another 30 rounds did they have another expense pouch in which to store the ammo, or did they put the extra rounds in their haversack (bread bag)?

I was also under the impression that 30 loose rounds per expense pouch was pushing it, and that it was more likely that it held only around 20 loose rounds, as trying to cram more loose rounds in would deform the thin cartridge cases, thus making them prone to jamming in the breech.

Martin.

And every Zulu that died that day made his last stand. But you haven't answered by question relating to Ansty.

Hi all

1 - The battle is already lost because of Durnford ... With his stupid orders for a deployment of Deleted.. No question of ammunitions or others excuses...Nobody ran out of ammunition in the battle...

Poor Pulleine, I begin to love more and more the latter ... Durnford is Custer in British version ... The same kind of errors ...

2 - 30 round by men of the reserve were in the reserves of ammunition wagons, not with the men ...

3 - There were 70 cartridges maximun on each infantrymen.

4 - There were 50 rounds maximun on each IMI and on each NNH cavalrymen.

5-There were 5 rounds maximun on each black NNC Infantrymen with a firearm and 50 rounds for their White officer( + ammunitions for theirs pistol...) and NCOs ...

6-There were 50 or 100 rounds maximun on each White Volunteers cavalrymen, according to the equipment worn ...1 or 2 bandoliers ? ammunitions for theirs pistol...

7 - For the gunners with rifles or carbines ?

8 - For the foot soldiers of the battery of rocket, maximun 70 cartridges ...

9 - How many cartridge for a guy who has a revolver in addition to a gun or a rifle?

Nobody ran out of ammunition in the battle, because they have learned too slowly for this, (normal for officers in trust, which relies too heavily on the qualities of MH and who confuse the Zulu with Xhosa) ... volley fire for the 24 th =slow rate of fire ,before Pulleine sound the retreat ...After for the last stands,independent fire ...

Durnford sent some guys to get ammunition because its cavalrymen were shooting in Independent Fire (normal for cavalrymen, with a quarter of the troopers keeps horses...)
Send guys get ammunition, did not mean that in had no ammunitions...

All this horrible massacre is the responsibility of Durnford.

1 - He imagines that the Zulu army will attack Chelmsford, really had to stick a layer for thinking this, Pulleine to still successfully prevented Durnford to take any infantry companies with him, otherwise it would have been happily butchered all on ...

2 - Durnford send ifirst 24 th infantry companies in front of Zulu, far from the camp, he could not wait to see if the zulus would come?

3- It ought also to dismantle the tents ...

4 - He leaves the rocket battery ... When cavalrymen are with troops on foot without defenses, they must go to their speed, or we do not take them ...

5-It provides for no voice for retirement ...

6-What the Zulu northwest of the camp, he does not care ...
He must have thought they had come for jogging ...

7- What would happened to Durnford, if he had survived, he had to doubt it ...

Le reste c'est de littérature...

Cheers

Pascal

Read his orders, he is clearded of leaving the camp.

Given the circumstances, he should no longer consider the orders.

If he did is that he was a disciplined moron without spirit innitiatives ...

Pascal

Just a quick post (time for bed here). Before you condemn outright the gallant Col Durnford, I would suggest that you get yourself a little better informed and read up on this brave fellow. You could start by reading 'Zulu Victory' by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill, or 'Zulu, the heroism and tragedy' by Saul David, they will give you a good idea of the underhanded way that Chelmsford and Crealock 'fitted up' and blamed Col Durnford for the disaster.

Hello

No need to have done the war school to understand that Durnford is as responsible as Chelmsford ... Poor Pulleine

Cheers

Pascal

Drummer boy
I think that rather than choosing to die a hero's death, the NC and NMP who died with Durnford replenished their ammunition from their camp and by this time the gap had closed - they were thus trapped and couldn't escape. The NNH replenished their ammunition at their waggons left by Vause to the south of the waggon park - by that time they were being cut off from the camp and couldn't get back to Durnford.

Martin
Haversack.

DB14

Nobody wants to die at Isandhlwana and especially not for the glory ...

They died because with the Zulu , no prisoners !

And Durnford is responsible, tactically speaking, of the defeat ..

Cheers

Pascal