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 Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !

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PostSubject: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:41 pm

Bill, hope you see this. Managed, thanks to a family member, to see you on BBC2 today, in an episode of Antiques Road Trip, when one of the antique dealers visited the museum. The museum looks fantastic sir ! Wasn't sure it was you he was talking too, but luckily they gave a close-up of your name-tag. I must get there someday. Glad to put a face to your name finally! Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:46 pm

So how much Did " Bill" sell for. (antique) Only Joking :lol!: for those that missing it. You can get on BBC Iplayer.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:57 pm

Bill would probably say he's priceless ! :lol!: I'm glad he appeared in this programme, considering he was excluded from Regimental Stories shown a couple of weeks ago. As I said, the museum looked great, with much of the Zulu War items being seen, including the VCs.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:55 pm

Hi All

For those that missed the programe or could not view it from their country.

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Our member Bill on the left

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David Harper holding a MH

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Hook's VC on the left & Bromhead's on the right.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:38 pm

1879Graves, Thanks for posting the photo's. Perhaps we could arrange a visit to Brecon next summer.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:34 pm

Is Breacon the " South wales boarders museum?"



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi DB14

South Wales Borderers Museum
The Barracks
Brecon
Powys
LD3 7EB
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:00 pm

1879graves wrote:
Hi DB14

South Wales Borderers Museum
The Barracks
Brecon
Powys
LD3 7EB

Thank you 1879 Graves i must try to get my dad to take me.

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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:49 pm

Yes, I watched this on TV.

And yet again no one (including Bill), mentioned the REAL name of the Regiment that fought at Rorkes Drift, even Tim Wannacott got it wrong by saying it was a welsh regiment called the south wales borderers (which DID NOT EXIST at the time).

But Tim would have been given his script by the research team, so he just read what he was given, but why don't the so called "researchers" do some proper research and get it right, why do they believe the myth that was created by the film 'zulu'. Is it not about time this farce was ended, and the credit given to the REAL Regiment that defended the post at Rorkes Drift, The 24th foot (2nd Warwickshire) regiment.

Is it too much to ask that the credit for this battle be given back to the Warwickshires, or is it a matter of hiding the truth from the public by pretending it was the swb, thereby giving the credit, honour and glory to the welsh at the expense of the Warwickshires, THE TRUE NOBLE 24TH.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:30 pm

Mr. M.C., I'm afraid mentioning it here a few times, isn't going to change anything. I think any grievance you have about this matter needs to be expressed to the necessary body dealing with such things, perhaps by letter or e-mail. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Martin

I can see you are not going to let this one go !

However, as I've said before , the 24th Regiment of Foot continued through a change of title from the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment to the South Wales Borderers - same regiment, different title. Indeed many of the men who defended Rorke's Drift started their army career in the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment and ended it in the South Wales Borderers Regiment, but obviously didn't actually leave the regiment ! I am sure that most of those with an interest in the AZW have no doubt what the regiment was titled in 1879 - and no one is contradicting that fact. However, it is one of the myths that have developed from the film - a myth that is probably going to run for ever , whatever we say or do.

I can assure you that in the filming of the Antiques Road Show I DID mention the fact that the Regiment was retitled in 1881 - two years after Rorke's Drift. Why would you think I wouldn't ? But of course, I have no control over the editing. Indeed the few minutes I appeared in the programme were the result of over FOUR HOURS of filming. You can but begin to imagine what else was edited out !

I would invite you to Brecon to see how we display the AZW in the museum, it may (or may not) help put your mind at rest.

Bill

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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:17 pm

Quote :
I would invite you to Brecon to see how we display the AZW in the museum, it may (or may not) help put your mind at rest.

That would resolve the issue Mr C.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:06 pm

Everyone

I've finally managed to see a copy of the Antiques Road Trip show. What a stunning performance from the curator ! Seriously though, I was very very relieved to note that in the few minutes I featured on the programme I didn't manage to say anything wildly wrong (which I'm sure I did in the four hours of filming it took to edit down to the three minutes !).

I did note that despite all my pleading, the editor still managed to call us the South Wales Borderers Museum, instead of "The Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh". So from that point of view, I can well empathise with Martin. However, once the public has something firmly in mind .......... !

Despite that, the publicity has generally proved to be very positive and has brought in a lot of extra visitors this week.

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:41 pm

Quote :
Despite that, the publicity has generally proved to be very positive and has brought in a lot of extra visitors this week.
Good news all round.

Just came across this if anyone from the forum is planning on visiting. (This year)




BRECON
With the Compliments of Brecon Town Council
TOWN GUIDE
2010-2012

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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:43 pm

Even in the booklet they are saying " South Wales Borderers Museum" scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:47 pm

Absolutely. It just confirms the point I made above !

Bill
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:12 am

Hello Bill

I do really understand what you are saying Bill, however, the problem is that whenever the Zulu war is mentioned, and particularly the defence of Rorkes Drift, most people insist on saying that it was a Welsh regiment called the SWB, but at that time in 1879 the 24th still had it's English county title of the 2nd Warwickshire regiment, and this title did not change until the reforms of 1881, two years after the Zulu war, and therefor the SWB did not exist until 1881, yet the credit always goes to them and not to the Warwickshires.

People have fallen for the myth created by the film 'Zulu', and many still believe that the 24th was a Welsh regiment called the SWB, they even think that B coy that fought at Rorkes Drift was mostly Welshmen, but this is totally untrue, and what I would like to see is that the proper recognition for this action be given to the real heroes, the 2nd Warwickshire regiment, and not to a myth created by a film.

The county of Warwickshire has lost both it's regiments, the 6th foot (1st Warwickshire) regiment, (later the Royal Warwickshire regiment), was forced into becoming a fusilier regiment (against it's will), and is now lost amongst the Royal regiment of fusiliers, the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, (later SWB), is now lost amongst the Royal Welsh. I think that it would be right and proper to get these two old Warwickshire regiments reformed into the 1st and 2nd Btns of a new regiment called The Warwickshire Regiment, this would bring the pride back to the county of Warwickshire, and return both Warwickshire regiments (6th and 24th) to their old home.

Yes, I would like to have a look around the museum, I will have to see about a visit some time.

Regards, Martin.



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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:44 pm

To quote Ian Knight, re the singing of Men of Harlch at RD:

"Well, it wasn't quite like that. In fact, the county designation of the 24th Regiment in 1879 was the 2nd Warwickshires; they didn't change their title to the South Wales Borderers until 1st July 1881 - almost exactly two years after the war had ended. True, the Regimental Depot had been established at Brecon, in South Wales, in 1873, and from that point there was a small but significant increase in Welsh recruits in the ranks. In fact, however, recruits for the regiment - like every other battalion in the British army - were signed on at recruiting depots across the country, and the 24th consisted of men from England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. The most that can be said is that the Welsh connection had, by 1879, led to a rather higher proportion of Welshman in the ranks than was common elsewhere. Nevertheless, even the most optimistic search of the regimental roll can find only 19 men of B Company, 2/24th, with any sort of Welsh connection - out of a total strength of more than 80."

Would one not say that 19/80 (at least) Welshmen is a reasonably significant number? I make that about 1 in 4 or 24%.
And this is not to mention the Scots, Irish and others mentioned. I wonder how many men actually came from Warwickshire?
(Not many one would imagine).

The 1/4 Welshmen in Bcoy, 2/24th at RD is more than reflected on the no. of VCs won by Welshmen of the 24th, 2 out of the 7 VCs to the 24th.
The reason that the name of the regiment was changed to the SWB in 1881, was becasuse this was a far more appropriate name for the regiment into which the 24th had evolved into by then. By 1873, and certainly by 1881, the 24th had no real connection with Warwickshire anymore.
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:33 pm

It would appear that tasker has been rather selective in the 'quotes' by Ian Knight.

Let's take a look at what Ian actually said regarding this issue.

(Quote)
In the popular imagination the principality of Wales will probably always be associated with the Anglo-Zulu War, but in fact the image of 'brave little Welshmen from the valleys singing Men of Harlech' as they manned the barricades is almost entirely anachronistic and has more to do with the efforts of Stanley Baker and Ivor Emmanuel in the 1960's and the battlefield tourism industry of today than with the reality of 1879.
The impression is fuelled by the obvious regional origins of today's Royal Welsh, the successor to the old 24th. Yet in 1879 the 24th had only recently taken the first steps of it's association with Wales, and the connection was certainly not reflected in the regional origin of the men in its ranks.
The regiments association with Brecon began in 1873 when the government of the day reorganised the Army establishment, dividing Great Britain and Ireland into military districts and subdistricts, and insisting that a brigade depot be established in each district. The 24th regiment, notwithstanding its historic Warwickshire associations, was attached to the twenty-fifth subdistrict, which encompased the counties of Cardigan, Radnor, Brecon and Monmouth, (Monmouth not being redesignated as Welsh intil 1976)
The 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment, spent much of the 1870's in Mediterranean garrisons. The 2nd Battalion was based in Aldershot in 1874, Dover from August 1875, and Chatham from 1877 prior to its departure for the Cape in February 1878. By the beginning of the Anglo-Zulu campaign in January 1879 neither battalion had spent time in Brecon. The 1st Battalion, moreover, still contained a high proportion of older, experienced men who had joined under the 'long service' system that had prevailed before the establishment of the Brecon depot. The recent time spent at home by the 2nd Battalion was reflected in a higher proportion of young recruits who had joined under the more attractive 'short service' system, and any marginal increase in the Welsh charactor had fallen rather to the 2nd Battalion.
In fact, however, where records are available, they suggest there were very few Welshmen in either Battalion during the war. Of the men of the 2/24th who defended Rorke's Drift, 62 were from England, 25 were from Ireland and 17 from Wales. Even this figure probably reflects a marginally higher proportion of Welshmen than the average within the Army as a whole, however. Nor do the origins of the men who received the Victoria Cross after the battle reflect any emphasis on Welsh origins. Lt Gonvile Bromhead was born in France to members of an old established English Lincolnshire family. Corporal William Allan was born in Northumberland to Scottish parents, and although English by birth he thought himself 'a scotchman' . Private Fred Hitch was a Londoner, Private Alfred Henry Hook was born in Gloucestershire and Private William Jones was born in Evesham. The two other Privates were born in Monmouthshire, Robert Jones, and John Williams (whose real name was Fielding). Nor can the proponderance of names commonly associated with Wales be taken at face value Jones and Williams are of course equally common English names, while Thomas Griffith, the 1st battalion V.C holder, killed ar Isandlwana, was born in Ireland and enlisted at Tamworth.
As the figures suggest, both Battalions of the 24th largely reflect the general pattern of regional origins within the British Army at the time, the majority of them were English, many from Ireland, and some were Scottish and Welsh.
The 24th's association with Wales truly date from a new wave of Army reorganisation instituted in 1881 when the old Regimental numbers were discontinued and new local titles allocated. The 1st and 2nd Battalions, based in Colchester and Secunderbad, were now designated, in recognition of their new depot, the 1st and 2nd Btns, SWB, and at the same time the old regimental march, 'The Warwickshire Lads', was ordered to be replaced with 'Men of Harlech'. Not until 1936 were the old Regimental Colours, carried at the battle of Chillianwallah, taken from their home in St Mary's church Warwick, where they had been laid up, to Brecon Cathederal. Only in the twentieth Century, too, did the regiment begin to assume a characteristically Welsh stamp its successor the Royal Welsh enjoys today. (end of quote).

It will be noted in the above that the regiment did not change its depot by choice, it was the government of the day that did this, and insisted that brigade depots be established in each district. It will also be noted that it was government involvment that discontinued the regimental numbers and new local titles were allocated. Also note that the last two V.C medal winners were both born in Monmouth, Monmouth did not become Welsh until 1976, therefor meaning that there were no Welsh winners of a V.C. And also it will be noted that the regimental march 'The Warwickshire Lads' was ordered to be changed to 'Men of Harlech'.
I find it strange that a regiment from South Wales should have a song about North Wales as its regimental march. The song itself is actually a tribute to the Lancastirians that defended Harlech and held out against the Yorkists, not, as some would have you believe, that it was the Welsh holding out against the English, that is also another myth.

I also find it strange that other battle honours that a certain regiment has won, always remain that regiments honours, and are always spoken of with that regiment in mind. For instance, the charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo, will always be known has the charge of the Royal Scots Greys, not by the regiment that it became or by the regiment it is today, the honour and glory will always go to the Greys. Likewise, the glory of the charge of the light brigade will always go to the regiments involved, not to the regiments they became. The glorious charge of the Bayreuth Dragoons at the battle of Hoenfriedburg will always belong to them and not the regiment it became, and the march of the Bayreuth Dragoons, written by Frederick the Great himself in their honour, will always be remembered as their march, The Hoenfriedburger March is well known, but it is always remembered as the Bayreuth Dragoons march.

So how is it that an action that was fought by a regiment with the English county title of The 2nd Warwickshires, nearly always gets classed has being a Welsh regiment that did not even exist at the time of the battle? Why don't the Warwickshires get the recognition that they deserve for this action at Rorke's Drift? The answer is of course, because of a myth created by Stanley Baker and the 1964 film 'Zulu'.

Lets get some things cleared up.

The 24th (as it bacame) was raised in ENGLAND, it was founded as part of William of Orange's defence of the ENGLISH Kingdom, it was later numbered the 24th, later it was given the ENGLISH county title of Warwickshire, now in my book that makes the 24th an ENGLISH Regiment, and through none of its own doing, but through government intervention, it now finds itself lost in Wales, and it is about time that it was returned to its homeland of ENGLAND.


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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:40 pm

It must be me, scratch because to me it doesn't matter wether it was an English or Welsh regiment. Whoever they were they fought together and overcome the odds. Let just call them;
The "24th English & Welsh regiment of foot"

Or if some people don't like the fact the English is first. Then we can say
The " 24th Welsh & English regiment of foot"

How's about that then Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:44 pm

old historian2 wrote:
It must be me, scratch because to me it doesn't matter wether it was an English or Welsh regiment. Whoever they were they fought together and overcome the odds. Let just call them;
The "24th English & Welsh regiment of foot"

Or if some people don't like the fact the English is first. Then we can say
The " 24th Welsh & English regiment of foot"

How's about that then Rolling Eyes

Good suggestion OH2.
Surely Mr M Cooper knows I am winding him up!
(Time to take a chill pill and let it go, Martin. It really isn't important !)
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:19 pm

Old H, I will agree with you that no matter what their nationallity, these brave men fought together and overcame the odds, and all credit to them for that, but with the regiment being raised in England, for the defence of England, and with it having an English County title, that to me says it is an English Regiment. My main concern, however, is not particulary where they came from (Ian Knight has made this clear that the vast majority were indeed English), but to get the recognition that the 2nd Warwickshires deserve, as opposed to the recognition that is mistakenly given to a mythical regiment that did not exist at the time. The credit, honour and glory belong to the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment, not to the myth created by Baker in an almost fictional film. Baker certainly did his best to make it appear that the 24th was Welsh, yet ironically, he played the part of an Englishman, Lt Chard R.E. but then again, he would want to play the part of the supposed hero wouldn't he.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:29 pm

Martin, had he lived, Stanley Baker was to have portrayed another heroic R.E. officer at Isandhlwana in 'Zulu Dawn'. Guess who ?
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:37 pm

Hi Colin

Oh no, don't tell me it was going to be our heroic friend Col Durnford. Shocked

Surely Baker would have been better off playing a bumbling oaf like Chelmsford or Pulleine :lol!:

Regards

Martin 😕 Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:58 pm

John Williams was born in Abergavenny and Robert Jones in Penrhos.
Both of these are ridiculously Welsh place names, and Monmouthshire is a Welsh county. Penrhos means "top of the moor" in Welsh and Abergavenny means "mouth of the river Fenni". To try and claim John Williams and Robert Jones as "English" when both men were born and died in Wales is an outrageous claim to make to be fair, Martin. Come on, please!
It is likely that William Jones was of Welsh descent also, making 3 of the 7 VC winners of B Coy. Welsh.
Don't forget also, that not ALL Welsh people have Welsh names or were born in Wales.
My surname is not in the least bit Welsh and i was born on London. However, ny paternal line is Welsh as far back as I can trace - pre 1841. If indeed my name was on the RD roll, no one would conclude I was in the least bit Welsh, but I am indeed half Welsh blooded.
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:37 pm

tasker

If you read my post above you will see that I am quoting Ian Knight on this, so it is not me that is making this outrageous claim. The two you mention (one of them gave a false name), were both born in Monmouth (according to Ian), and with Monmouth not becoming Welsh until 1976, that would mean that no Welshmen won a V.C.

I have nothing whatsoever against the Welsh (I have Welsh relations), my point is that the recognition for the 24th regiment and its part in the AZW always goes to the myth rather than to the real regiment that took part in the war, especially Rorke's Drift.

If you have an English sounding surname, you might find that if you can go back far enough, that you do indeed have English ancestors.

On the other hand if you have a Norman sounding surname, you may find that your family came over here with William and his mob, and oddly enough William/s became a very popular name, both Christian and Surname, after William came.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:31 pm

This is a Welsh regiment man, although there are a few foreigners from England in it." Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:54 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:04 pm

"The South Wales Borderers was an infantry regiment of the British Army. It first came into existence as the 24th Regiment of Foot 1689, but was not called the South Wales Borderers until 1881.
The regiment served in a many conflicts including the American Revolutionary War, various conflicts in India, the Zulu War, Boer War, and World War I and II. The regiment came to a end 1969 when it was absorbed into the Royal Regiment of Wales.
The regiment was formed as Sir Edward Dering's Regiment of Foot in 1689 becoming known like many other regiments during that time by the names of its subsequent colonels.
It became the 24th Regiment of Foot in 1751, having been deemed 24th in the infantry order of precedence since 1747. In 1782 it became the 24th (The 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot. The 1st Warwickshires were the 6th (1st Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot."
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:53 am



Everyone, really, come on! To try to stake the claim that Monmouthshire was "English" when Robert Jones and John Williams (Fielding) were born, and so claim their VCs for England and steal them away from Wales, is both childish, wrong, and plainly nonsensical!
Whether I say it, you say it, or Ian Knight said it, Monmouthsire has always quite clearly been Welsh. Read on if you need proof. Note the operative word "some" in the first quote, final sentence.

Quick search of Monmouthshire, from Wikipedia direct:
"Monmouthshire ( /ˈmɒnməθʃər/ or /ˈmɒnməθʃɪər/), also known as the County of Monmouth (/ˈmɒnməθ/; Welsh: Sir Fynwy), is one of thirteen ancient counties of Wales and a former administrative county.
It corresponds approximately to the present principal areas of Monmouthshire, Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen, and Newport and those parts of Caerphilly and Cardiff east of the Rhymney River.
The eastern part of the county is mainly agricultural, while the western valleys had rich mineral resources. This led to the area becoming highly industrialised with coal mining and iron working being major employers from the 18th century[3] to the late 20th century.
Monmouthshire's Welsh status was ambiguous between the 16th and 20th centuries, with it considered by some to be part of England during this time."

from Monmouthshire County's own website:
"William Shakespeare, writing in 1599 - after the Act of Union - had no doubt that Monmouth was in Wales. In a scene in Henry V before the Battle of Agincourt there is the following dualogue: (Fluellen) "....and I do believe, your majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon St Tavy's day. (King Henry) I wear it for a memorable honour; For I am Welsh, you know, good countryman." Henry, as we have seen, was born in Monmouth."

This is my final post on this topic, as the topic in my opinion is closed. (I don't want to feed Martin's bitterness anymore and see him take it off at ever more ridiculous tangents). Next he will be claiming Jesus as a horse!
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:24 am

Irish, Scottish or Welsh. They all fought under the British flag. I was actully looking for some information on this myself, and came across another forum that was discussing this very issue. I couldn't believe the language being used to get points across it really did turn nasty. let's hope this doesn't go the same way. Well actully I know it wouldn't get that far on this forum.
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:52 pm

Hi everyone

As my name appears in the title of this thread, I do feel that I ought to add a few words (yet again !).

I'm not sure why Martin keeps raising the point on this site, as no one really disagrees with him ! However, once again, here goes:

The point that I've made and is one that is echoed in some of the responses above, is that there were NO English or Welsh Regiments - they were all BRITISH regiments. Local affiliations are a different matter and is one reason the Army looked carefully at where Depots were positioned. As I've said before, the Welsh press in 1878-79 were already referring to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot as "our" regiment.

Regiments evolve. So what started as Dering's Regiment, was retitled as the 24th Regt of Foot, then retitled as the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regt of Foot, then retitled as the South Wales Borderers. However, despite changes in its title and the location of its depot, it remained the SAME regiment. In 1969 the SWB amalgamated with The Welch Regiment to form The Royal Regiment of Wales. In 2006 the RRW amalgamated with the Royal Welch Fusiliers to form The Royal Welsh. The Royal Welsh thus claims the traditions and honours awarded to its illustrious antecedents.

I must admit chuckling to see Martin insisting the regiment ought to be returned to its roots in Warwickshire, particularly as Col Derring had raised it initially in Kent !!!

I doubt that Martin will let this one go. However, as I have to put up with the fact that the Brecon museum will always be known as the SWB Museum (as opposed to The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh), then it's a question of living with it.

Bill
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:32 pm

Bill, with respect. I think that if you look back, you will see that I had replied to you on Sunday 30th October, but got no reply, and had not mentioned it since then, however, it was tasker who raised the point again on Thursday 8th December, not me, and I replied to his post the day after on the 9th. Please take a look back and check this for yourself, you will find that tasker raised the point again, not me.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:02 pm

"The 24th (The 2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot was in two battalions. The 1st battalion embarked for India in 1846: the depot was at Chatham. The second battalion was at Aldershot in 1860"
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:35 am

bill cainan wrote:
Hi everyone

As my name appears in the title of this thread, I do feel that I ought to add a few words (yet again !).

I'm not sure why Martin keeps raising the point on this site, as no one really disagrees with him ! However, once again, here goes:

The point that I've made and is one that is echoed in some of the responses above, is that there were NO English or Welsh Regiments - they were all BRITISH regiments. Local affiliations are a different matter and is one reason the Army looked carefully at where Depots were positioned. As I've said before, the Welsh press in 1878-79 were already referring to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment of Foot as "our" regiment.

Regiments evolve. So what started as Dering's Regiment, was retitled as the 24th Regt of Foot, then retitled as the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regt of Foot, then retitled as the South Wales Borderers. However, despite changes in its title and the location of its depot, it remained the SAME regiment. In 1969 the SWB amalgamated with The Welch Regiment to form The Royal Regiment of Wales. In 2006 the RRW amalgamated with the Royal Welch Fusiliers to form The Royal Welsh. The Royal Welsh thus claims the traditions and honours awarded to its illustrious antecedents.

I must admit chuckling to see Martin insisting the regiment ought to be returned to its roots in Warwickshire, particularly as Col Derring had raised it initially in Kent !!!

I doubt that Martin will let this one go. However, as I have to put up with the fact that the Brecon museum will always be known as the SWB Museum (as opposed to The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh), then it's a question of living with it.

Bill

Thanks for reminding us all of those points Bill. Well said.
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:13 pm

Hello again Bill

In answer to the points that you made in your post.

I have already said that it wasn't me that raised the point again (check back and see for yourself).

In the 1870's the 1st battalion were in Mediterarranean garrisons before being dispatched directly to South Africa in November 1874. The 2nd battalion was based in Aldershot, Dover and Chatham prior to its departure for the Cape in February 1878. By the begining of the Anglo-Zulu campaign in January 1879 neither battalion had spent time in Brecon. (source; Ian Knight, Companion to the Anglo-Zulu war). So how the Welsh press can refer the 24th as "our" regiment is a mystery.

Bill, I do know the history of the 24th, and in an earlier post I said that it was raised in Pluckley, so again, if you check all my posts on this subject you will find that nowhere have I ever claimed that the 24th's roots were in Warwickshire, so you appear to chuckling at something that I have not said.

You say that you doubt that I will let this one go, Bill, I had let this one go last October, but if someone brings the subject up again, then I am obliged to reply to them.

The problem is that the film 'Zulu' created the false impression that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was a regiment called the SWB, and that it was a Welsh regiment full of Welsh soldiers with a few 'forigners' from England, but this is totally untrue. However, the uninitated fall for this myth and assume that this is fact, and through their ignorance they alter the historic facts and turn them into fiction, and it is this that has always been my niggle. That is the reason why I always try to give the credit to the actual regiment that fought in the AZW at both Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift, and that regiment was the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and not the SWB.

It would appear that some people are not concerned with historic values, to them it is a load of bull****, but other people value history and want to learn the truth about historic events such as the AZW, but if the truth is hidden behind a myth, then eventually it alters history itself.

Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Saw Bill Cainan On Tv In The Museum !    Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Hi Martin

Yes, of course I appreciate it wasn’t you that originated the issue in this instance. However, I feel almost obliged to respond to the points that you do make.

You say:
"if you check all my posts on this subject you will find that nowhere have I ever claimed that the 24th's roots were in Warwickshire, so you appear to chuckling at something that I have not said".
I have, and did you not say earlier:
"I think that it would be right and proper to get these two old Warwickshire regiments reformed into the 1st and 2nd Btns of a new regiment called The Warwickshire Regiment, this would bring the pride back to the county of Warwickshire, and return both Warwickshire regiments (6th and 24th) TO THEIR OLD HOME.” !!!!!!!!
The point I was making was that if you do not consider that Brecon should be the home of the Regiment then on the same basis neither should Warwickshire be its home as the Regiment was originally raised in Kent !!!

You also quoted Ian Knight “By the begining of the Anglo-Zulu campaign in January 1879 neither battalion had spent time in Brecon” If you have ever visited the Barracks in Brecon you would know why ! The Barracks were constructed to house the 25th Brigade Depot - essentially a regimental administration centre and recruit training establishment. The barracks were not built to house a one or two battalion Regiment and there is insufficient space for this. This is true of a number of the Brigade Depots established in the 1870s. Both battalions of the 24th had two recruit training companies at the Depot (one for training recruits and the other for holding/drafting). Thus from 1873 ALL of the recruits for either battalion of the 24th were trained at Brecon. It is therefore no real mystery (except to you !) that the Welsh press were describing the 24th (after the Depot being 6 years in Brecon) as “our” regiment.

As Curator of the Brecon museum, I can assure you that I clearly make all of these points objectively to visitors to the Museum, irrespective of whether they appear to be pro- or anti-Welsh !

Please make the effort to come to Brecon where we can continue this interesting debate.

Bill
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PostSubject: saw Bill Cainan on TV in the museum   Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:07 pm

Hello again Bill

Thanks for your reply. Yes, when I said their old home, I was meaning their old home of Warwickshire, not their roots of Kent. Thanks for clearing the mystery, it did seem odd that a regiment that hadn't spent time there should be called our regiment. Bill, I have Welsh ancestors on my mothers side, so please don't think I am anti Welsh, as nothing could be further from the truth. I would really like to come and meet you and see the museum, I will have to make the effort one day.
Regards, Martin.
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