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 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana

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kwajimu1879



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 am

Admin,
The actual source for that flag should be The Royal Welsh Museum, Brecon.
kwaJimu1879
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:13 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The Colour Party of the 1st/24th Foot prior to presenting the Queen's Colour recovered from the Tugela River after the Battle of Isandlwana to HM Queen Victoria. The Queen's Colour is on the left. The soldiers on the far right and fourth from the right fought at Rorke's Drift.
The most memorable episode of this stage of the battle concerns Lieutenants Melville and Coghill. Melville was the adjutant of the 1st Battalion, the 24th Foot. He is thought to have collected the Queen’s Colour from the guard tent towards the end of the battle and ridden out of camp heading for the Tugela River. Melville arrived at the river, in flood from the rains, with and plunged in. Half way across Melville came off his horse, still clutching the cased colour. Coghill, also of the 24th Foot, crossed the river soon after and went to Melville’s assistance. The Zulus were by this time lining the bank and opened a heavy fire on the two officers. Coghill’s horse was killed and the colour swept away. Both officers struggled to the Natal bank where it seems likely that Natal natives killed them.
Melville and Coghill probably died at around 3.30pm. At 2.29pm there was a total eclipsed of the sun briefly plunging the terrible battle into an eerie darkness.

Source; Warfare forum


Last edited by littlehand on Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:18 am

Jimbo. He did say, Source: Gentleman's Military Interest Club Originally posted by 24th: On Sat 27 Aug 2011 - 0:10
If that's where 24th obtained if from, then 24th is correct in putting the source where he got it from. It would be near impossible and time consuming if we had to look for the original source. Idea

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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:46 pm

Hi all

The flag (illustrated), noted as the one that flew over Rorke's Drift, was brought back from Zululand by 25B/1428 Pte Evan Jones, B Coy 2/24th (NB He was only posted the the 2/24th on 26/1/1879 - three days after the battle of RD). How did he get the flag ? We don't know. However, later in his service he was given 28 days detention for stealing ! On leaving the army he settled in Welshpool and the flag was passed to a Jack Higgins of the Old School House also in Welshpool. It remained with his family until 1978 when it was presented to the Brecon Museum.

Currently it is protected by a plastic sheet, but I am hoping to have it under glass very soon.

As an aside, Pte Jones' great great grandaughter, Miss Ann Jones, was Miss Wales in 1979 on the 100th anniversary of the battle.

The Gentleman's Military Club ? I suspect they just held/hold a photograph of the flag.

Bill
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi littlehand

Thanks for putting the picture of the colour party up. This is the picture in the book 'uniforms and weapons of the zulu war' I was explaining about in my earlier post, and somehow the Queen's colour in the picture you have put up is a lot clearer than the picture in the book I have. scratch

Maybe it's the methods used in the printing of the pictures.

Regards

Martin.
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:07 pm

Hi kwajimu

Many thanks for the post, a good read, and it made things a lot clearer.

Much appreciated

Regards

Martin.
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:16 pm

Hi Bill

I replied to your post explaining that I wasn't sure how to put the picture of the flag on here, and giving you the address of the site I found it on, but Jeff (dundeeboer), came to the rescue and put the image of the flag up, and it appears that they have got the flag mislabled on their site.

Very interesting about the flag flown at RD (hope this is the right one) scratch :lol!:

Regards

Martin.
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kwajimu1879



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:36 pm

Littlehand,
When I get back home tonight I'll post a far better photograph of Tongue & the Colour party @ Osborne.
Why can't people get MELVILL's name right?
As Bill, the Curator of the Royal Welsh Museum, confirms the Rorke's Drift Union Flag is in the Collection at Brecon, so it should really be attributed to the Museum, rather than elsewhere.
kwaJimu1879
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:55 pm

Quote :
Why can't people get MELVILL's name right?
Jim. Doe's it matter. We all know who their on about. Wink

What's the correct spelling for "Isandula" Rolling Eyes
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kwajimu1879



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:05 pm

Littlehand,
Of course it matters!
I believe it is iSandlwana, as that is what the learned ones in this game are touting it as.
kwaJimu1879
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:47 pm

Look on the Victorian war forum. And look at John Young's user name. He is one of the learned ones. My point being we all know what it means. Idea
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DundeeBoer



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:41 am

Hi Martin,

Just checking back in. Looks like you have some good information. I’ll just add a little. I think I have the answer to the confusion you’re having with the XXIV Regt and roses & thistles surrounding it. If you go back a little further to mid 18th century the Kings Color (later to be Queens color with Victoria) was the union jack with XXIV Regt.in the center and surrounding that was a wreath of roses and thistles. It was also much larger, 6x6. I am not sure if the Regt. and wreath were changed to crown and XXIV with Victoria in 1837 or earlier but in 1857 the size was reduced to the basic measurements Kwajimu gave you above and the spearhead ornament was replaced with the crown and lion. In 1859 Victoria ordered that Red and gold fringe be added.

This is a copy print from the NAM showing the Queens and Regimental Colors.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


So adding to the confusion is of course de Neuvilles painting of Melvill and Coghill saving the Queens color where he has painted Melvill actually holding the regimental color.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Mevill of course saved the Queens color of the 1st Battalion from the field and it was lost, then recovered from the Buffalo River. The regimental color was left at Helpmakaar.

The Queens color for the 2nd Battalion was lost from the field of Isandlwana and all that was recovered was the color poll not far from Isandlwana some time later. The replacement color was given in 1882 and the staff given to Queen Victoria and kept at Windsor Castle until 1923 then returned to the regiment.

On July 28th 1880 the Queens color of the 1st Battalion was taken to Queen Victoria at Osborne where she placed the Wreath of immortelles on the color poll and ordered that sliver replicas always be carried on both the 1st and 2nd battalions Queens color to commemorate the gallantry on Melville and Coghill and the heroic defense of Rorkes Drift. The 1st Battalion Queens color and Regimental color were Carried until march 28th 1933 when new colors were presented by the Governer in Hong Kong on behalf of King George V. The Laying up ceremony was at Brecon Cathedral on Easter Sunday, April 1, 1934. I have the program from that. Here are the first two pages I thought you might like.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hats off and a moment to remember brave men through the ages. Join me if you will.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards, Jeff
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:14 pm

Hi Jeff

Many thanks for the information and the pictures, brilliant, very good of you my friend and much appreciated.

Yes, I have been checking up on the colours, and it looks like the XXIV REGt surrounded by Roses and Thistles was changed at some point, but like you, I can't be sure when. The regimental colour appears to still have the Roses and Thistles around the garter emblem, which looks a little like the glengarry badge on the colour party photo at Osborne. Talking of the glengarry, Queen Victoria liked it and said that all her soldiers should wear it, and so all regiments had the glengarry, not just scottish regiments.

Yes, that's the problem with some of the Victorian artists, they painted romantic images of how they wanted to portray the subject in question, and they get some of the details wrong (artistic licence), which then gets things confused with actual events, and leads the public into believing that what they see in a painting is what actually happened, just like the 1964 film zulu, which got a lot of things wrong and created the myth that the 24th was a Welsh regiment called the SWB.

Jeff, I thought that a lion and crown were found as well as the pole, but I may be wrong, I will have to get reading the book again to check up on that.

You have been of great help with this, and I thank you most sincerely, well done mate, and many, many thanks.

And yes, I will take off my hat and join you in remembering these very brave men through the ages.

Here is to their memory, may their souls rest in peace.

Best regards mate

And once again, many thanks.

Martin.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:56 pm

I was unaware The Good Lord Chelmsford was court marshalled.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:17 pm

CTSG. Me thinks you have posted in wrong discussion.
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90th



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PostSubject: 24th foot Regt's Colours from Isandlwana .   Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:16 pm

Hi Ctsg .
This may be the wrong thread , but I didnt think he was court - Martialled . I think there was talk of the possibility
of one but as far as I'm aware it didnt happen . He was censured in as much he didnt command a force in the field ever again . I think luckily for him he was a great favourite of Queen Victoria which no doubt saved his bacon to a certain extent .
cheers 90th . Idea
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:21 pm

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impi



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:19 pm

A bit odd, him saying this,when he made the comments he did regarding the deaths of Melville & Coghill.
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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:39 am

Hi all

Normal, Wolseley was a modern general and it would not have suffered the failure of Chelmsford.

Also I do not think the Zulu knew what What was a standard, if they had found, they would have left behind to rot...

Salute


Pascal
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:25 pm

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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:47 am

Why have wanted to save a flag which the Zulus did not care? An excuse for cowards !
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springbok9



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:00 am

Not that easily dismissable Pascal. Its a question of the mindset of the Victorian soldier, Death before Dishonour. Historically loosing the colors was a fate worse than death, as was loosing the guns and extraordinary attempts would be made to protect both. Look at the Death of Lord Kitcheners son in the attempt to rescue the guns from the boers at Colenso, suicidal, and he knew before he started.
Melvills attempt was laudible under the old regime ( and would probably be today), the only voice raised against the attempt in the immediate aftermath was Wolsleys comments on Officers leaving the field before their men. But I think in this regard Lt Col Snooks explanation is spot on. Im not to sure however if there is a case to be made for Coghill. That discussion has raged for the last 134 years and will I suspect rage for the next 134 years.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:17 am

Bonjour Monsieur

Alors la santé ,celà va ?

Yes? Actually, you entirely correct in thinking this, we will never know the truth, but I think that if the Zulus had found any flag, it would have never known his importance for the white soldiers ...

For me , If the British had known this, they may not have not been as attentive to their flags...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:34 am

French regiments were just as protective of their Eagles in the Napoleonic Wars, Pascal!

The 2nd battalion, 44th East Essex regiment captured an Eagle at Salamanca in 1812, and even today, the Essex County Cricket team is known as the Essex Eagles, and their one day strip is yellow - the same colour as the 44th's tunic facings.

The capture of a French Imperial Eagle by the fictional "South Essex Regiment" in the Sharpe novels of Bernard Cornwell is based upon the 2/44th's battle honour. The South Essex is depicted as having yellow coat facings like the 44th (East Essex). Sharpe's Waterloo again uses a historical incident involving the 44th as a backdrop for an action by the "South Essex", the back-to-back stand against French cavalry at the Battle of Quatre Bras. This was the only recorded incident of a unit receiving a cavalry charge in Line Formation. (They did not have the time to form a Square, but they made the best of it)!

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kwajimu1879



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:57 am

Springbok,

I think you are confusing Kitchener with Roberts regarding Colenso.

'Jimu
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springbok9



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:02 am

Kwajimu
Yep I did sorry, 'Post at haste, repent at leisure ". Salute
Tasker
Wasnt there an instance at Sevastepol ?


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:04 am

GOOD tASKER

Never a European army has won many wars and battles that the French army, not a European army has captured many enemy flags as the French army and the French ent does not make a dish because french cares only celebrate some military battles of the past, because there have forced

And I think MOST British aussi do not care much of the old glories of the British army, how many British citizens Have Heard of Isandhlwana and without RD cinema?

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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:05 am

GOOD JIM -Yes it's true, do not tell him purpose Because it's a nice man ...
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kwajimu1879



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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:25 pm

Pascal,

I was going to mention what you are inferring, but we do have some younger forum members...

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: 24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana   Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:44 pm

And I LEFT HEAR WHAT? Very Happy
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24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana

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