I have just seen the question asked by 24th to Billy regarding. How long did it take him to get from Isandlwana to Coffin rock.

My question is does anyone know the distance between the two points, in miles.

HI Littlehand
not sure on that one myself and i was there did not go the full distance by foot cheeted and used the van to go by road to the otherside of the river at a rough guess but would not like to swear to it around 4 miles i would love to know also

Hi Littlehand
just found a scale map in one of my book's distance from Isandlwana to Fugetives drift is around 6 miles give a few yards or two
Don't think i would have carried all my kit to run that far with someone out to get me

Billy just out of interest. In your own opinion how long would you say that distance would take to cover on horseback taking into account the terrain, and lets say in a state of panic.

sas1

I can see where this going before it starts.

not being a rider i would hate to guess maybe scapegoat has an idea

hi all,

there is one major point we must remember, according to I.KNIGHTS book, THE ZULU WAR THEN AND NOW.
the amount of vegetation, trees, undergrowth and all manner of dead trees etc, etc. has increased 1000%. in the photos of 1879 some of the hills leading down to the buffalo river are barren, the same places today are a tangle of brush and thorn bush, but it would have been a nightmare, trying to negotiate the rocks and boulders in a panic.

cheers 90th.

I would say as long as it took for Melvill and Coghill to get there. For the heroic deed that got them the VC.

But it also depends on what time Melvill supposedly left the Battlefield . If we knew roughly the time it would take to get from Isandlwana to the Coffin Rock location, them it would determine the approximate time he left

I agree with Chelmsfordthescapegoat it all depended on the Individual and his fight for survival the only guy's who will know this are the ones lucky enough to escape unfortunatly they are no longer alive and i doubt if they kept stopping to check a pocket watch it's all guess work.
If the Camp fell at around 13.30hrs -1400 and the first fugitives got to Rorkes Drift around 1600hrs we would still have to know when they first left camp.
Worth thinking of but we may never know

Little Hand there are lots of books that have been published regarding Melvill leaving Isandlwana. There are some discrepancies as to when he actually left the field.
This topic could lead into a discussion as to weather or not Melvill and Coghill deserve the VC or not.
Billy was asked if knows how long it would take to get between the two points on horse back. Not a fair question as Billy stated he does not ride and 90th raises a good point with reference to the ever changing terrain.
If Billy had been asked if he thought Melvill and Coghill deserved the VC then we might have got a different perspective from someone who knows his subject and who has been to the location.

S.D

HI Saul David
AS an Ex Squaddie all men that day deserve recognition wether they got the VC or not and it's us guy's today who chat like this make it as all are remembered as heros and not forgoten

Billy good answer. But do you think Melvill should have received the VC. It is said that he took the colours to rally the men.
But don't you thnk the rally point should have been on the Battlefield and not six miles away

Hi Littlehand
always been a debatable question it may upset some folk but i say what i think No disrespect to Melville or Coghill and no disrespect to any living realative bbut why where the colours not passed on to a Sargeant ,corpral,or Private.
A soldier relies upon his officers for Moral I have often wondered what any soldier thought when they saw them ride out of camp no doubt lost heart.
But saying that if Col; Pulline gave them a Direct Order a soldiers job is to obey without question.
May be if they had suvived there would have been questions asked Take for instance Lt J Carey after the Death of the Prince Imperial He was Court Martialed .
Another Isandlewana escapee LT Horrace Smith-Dorrian in Later years becaame a Brigadear in the 1st world war and sighned the Death warrents for Deserting and shellshocked troops bet no one ever said to him you did that at Isandlewana.
no doubt i will get some flack with this one but as i say it's only my oppinion

hi littlehand,

all the reports i have read seem to indicate MELVILLE was told to SAVE the colours, or he took it upon himself to do so. wasnt much of a chance to rally because of the numbers of zulus coming from the 3 directions. when the frontline retreated to the camp,according to curling the zulus were already in the camp doing ' TERRIBLE WORK".
MELVILLE watched this unfold and was told to go, or took it upon himself to go.

cheers 90th.

hi all

forgot to add, NO DISRESPECT meant in my previous post.

cheers 90th.

I think we all know, that it was very unlikely that Pulleine gave the order to save the colour as he was probably dead by the time Melvill decided to take it upon himself to do so.
The question is why was he so far away from the Battlefield. Lets have a look again at what Wolseley said.

"I am sorry that both of theses officers were not killed with their men at Isandlwana instead of where they were.[...] I don't like the idea of officers escaping on horseback when their men on foot are killed,"

Later he added...
"Heroes have been made of men like Melville and Coghill who, taking advantage of their horses, bolted from the scene of the action to save their lives."

All so with reference to Curling he suggested to Coghill to make a stand even when he knew what was going on in the camp.

S.D

With reference to Jamie’s site. As anyone asked Jamie what his thoughts are on Melvill’s departure from Isandlwana. He has taken photographs of the whole area. He would be able to give a better understanding of the terrain and the distance to coffin rock. And what the timescale would be to cover the distance.

Just a thought. And I don't know him.

hi all,

have sent jamie an email , asking the time required to go from isandlwana to fugitives drift.
cheers 90th.

Brilliant can’t wait for his reply.

hi all.

jaimie has replied , will post his email when the kids get home !!. as i have no idea how to send it from my email.

cheers 90th. :lol!:

Hi there,

Thanks for the feedback.

Having walked the trail a few times I would estimate a horse and rider to be able to do the journey from Isandlwana to the Fugitives Drift in about 30-40 minutes. You have to bear in mind that on the latter sections of the trail leading to the drift especially, there are a lot of undulations in the rock structures on this trail and would significantly reduce speed of a horse down to at least human slow walking speed.

Ian is absolutely right about the vegetation and I even notice the difference between the years of my visits on how the vegetation grows. I believe the herds of cattle do not roam on the trail any more hence the overgrown nature of the terrain compared to what it would have been in 1879.

Last points of British resistance on the trail by foot soldiers was at the Manzimnyama stream bed and the whitewash cairns diminish in number from there to the drift. Today, these cairns are very much overgrown with vegetation.

Hope this helps,

Thanks again for the feedback,

Regards,

Jamie

Big Thanks to Jamie and 90th.

So we have an answer from someone well known with in the AZW circle who has walked the trail, and suggests it would take 30-40 minutes. The next question is. Does anyone know what time Melvill / Coghill left Isandlwana.

There are accounts of Melvill and Coghill being seen on the trail, but i don't think time lines were shown in these accounts.

Extract from Curlings account. "I was with Major Smith at this time, he told me he had been wounded in the arm. We saw Lieutenant Coghill, the A.D.C., and asked him if we could not rally some men and make a stand, he said he did not think it could be done. We crossed the road with the crowd, principally consisting of natives, men left in camp, and civilians, and went down a steep ravine leading towards the river. The Zulus were in the middle of the crowd, stabbing the men as they ran. When we had gone about 400 yards, we came to a deep cut in which the guns stuck. There was, as far as I could see, only one gunner with them at this time, but they were covered with men of different corps clinging to them. The Zulus were in them almost at once, and the drivers pulled off their horses. I then left the guns. Shortly after this. I again saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulleine had been killed. Near the river I saw Lieutenant Melville, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, with a colour, the staff being broken"

Curling saw Coghill, but does not give a time. This is just one eye witness account.

Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien's account again does not give times.

S.D

hi all.
Someone asked in an earlier post ( which i cant find !) how long would it take to get from NYEZANE to ISANDLWANA ?. JAMIE has contacted me and supplies the following. From DURBAN to ISANDLWANA is about 4-5 hrs at a nice pace in a car, so he assumes from
NYEZANE- ISANDLWANA approx 4 hrs. it would therefore take a very long time back in 1879!!!!!..
cheers 90th.

Thanks for that 90tth. I thought it was closer. So there was no way Pearson could have lent a hand on that day.

Received this by e-mail. Wonderfull photo.

Hi OH
Great photo, however the main crossing point is just out of shot to the right. That photo shows the so called coffin rock location and also the whirlpool area.

regards

Couple of comments.

I visited the drift a few months ago and could not find coffin rock - apparently it is now nearly covered by sediment - can anyone confirm this, I would liked to have seen it but did not have a guide with me.

Secondly, considering their flight, the swim across the river, the damaged knee and the zulus! The site of Melville's and Coghill's memorial - which I am told is where the bodies fell - would suggest that they managed to get quite far from the river, uphill - certainly I was puffing by the time I reached the memorial after leaving the 'whirlpool' and I wasn't travelling in a straight line. I suppose that fear of death can be quite a motivator!!

Younghusband

Opposit the whirl pool is the pump station for FD Lodge. Walk upstream for around 20 metres. The supposed coffin rock is directly opposit you, virtually on the Zulu bank.
Coffin rock by the way only came into being through Morris in TWOTS. There is a pretty large school of thought that the Melvill rock is actually higher up and closer to the Natal Bank. On your visit you would have walked upstream and passed the stream entry to the river on the other side, next to that is a sand bank, said to have been the point where M & C entered the water, still father up stream, no more than a few metres is a cliff face that overlooks a sizable pool. This pool has been christened the Smith Dorean pool, after the place he entered the water.

Regards