WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:Lt. Col. Pulleine: His Lordship is of the cetain opinion that it's far too difficult an approach to be chosen by the Zulu command.Col. Durnford: Yes, well... difficulty never deterred a Zulu commander.
 
HomeHome  CalendarCalendar  GalleryGallery  PublicationsPublications  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Farnborough Hill
Yesterday at 9:46 pm by 24th foot

» Rorke's Drift
Yesterday at 8:25 pm by xhosa2000

» Missing five hours question
Yesterday at 6:59 pm by SRB1965

» Rifles at Rorkes Drift......not the usual Zulu/Martini question....
Yesterday at 9:07 am by SRB1965

» Captain Walter Stafford NNC medals
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:04 am by 90th

» Gerald French, liar or not?
Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:24 pm by Frank Allewell

» A bit more fun research!
Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:22 am by rusteze

» Trooper H. Boik (NMP) and Dartnell patrol Isandlwana, 22 January 1879
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 am by whizz-bang

» Norris-Newman
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:52 pm by Kenny

» Some fun research
Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:47 am by Frank Allewell

» Isipezi Hill
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 pm by ALLENG

» Zulu shield question
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:03 am by SRB1965

» Buyer beware!..
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:47 pm by xhosa2000

» Colonel Farquhar Glennie
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:48 pm by SRB1965

» A number of SAGS for Sale at C Dixons
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:38 pm by xhosa2000

Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards. killed at Hlobane
[Mac & Shad] Captain Ronald G.E. Campbell, Coldstream Guards --killed at Hlobane (Mac and Shad) (Isandula Collection)
Rob Caskie at a Showcase Event 2014
Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Top posters
90th
 
littlehand
 
Frank Allewell
 
ADMIN
 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
 
John
 
Mr M. Cooper
 
1879graves
 
impi
 
rusteze
 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Top posting users this month
90th
 
xhosa2000
 
Frank Allewell
 
rusteze
 
John Young
 
SRB1965
 
Tee
 
24th foot
 
ALLENG
 
Kenny
 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.

Share | 
 

 The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
AuthorMessage
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Thu May 03, 2012 11:04 pm

Hi impi

I would presume that someone had added the words (South Wales Borderers) to Brickhill's account, as the name SWB did not exist until 1881 (2 years after the AZW), when the Cardwell-Childers reforms were put into operation by the government of the day.

It was in 1881 when the regiment lost its number (24th), and had its name changed from the 2nd Warwickshire regiment to the SWB.

During the AZW the regiment was The 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot, it had this title from 1782 until 1881.

Hope this helps.

Martin.
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu May 03, 2012 11:31 pm

Thanks Martin.

I would like to see the full account just to accertain that's not what it says, if it does of cause, then his account would be under scrutiny, as to wether or not he really did write that account. So if you have a link to his account I would appricate it. Salute
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Fri May 04, 2012 12:12 am

Hi impi

Sorry my friend, I don't have the full Brickhill account, nor do I have a link to it.

Perhaps your best bet would be Gary ( 90th), he seems to have all sorts of reports, books and accounts.

There must be someone on the forum that can help you out mate.

Martin. Salute
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9276
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at R.D 1879.   Fri May 04, 2012 1:42 am

Hi Martin and all .
Hope all is well with you Martin ; I've had a look and can only find bits and pieces of Brickhill's account Suspect . I'll keep looking and see if it turns up .
Cheers 90th. Sad


Last edited by 90th on Fri May 04, 2012 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9276
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at R.D 1879.   Fri May 04, 2012 2:52 am

Hi Martin.
After another hour of fruitless searching Suspect . Still no luck . You need to study mo . So it looks as If I dont have the full account either .
Cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9276
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at R.D 1879.   Fri May 04, 2012 5:44 am

Hi All.
From Harold Raugh's ; Anglo Zulu War - 1879 , A Selected Bibliography .
Brickhill , J.A. '' The Isandhlwana Massacre ,'' Natal Magazine 4 , No17 ( Sept 1879 ) ; 255 - 263 ; Reprinted in ' Later Annals Of Natal , Comp & Ed , A.F Hattersley , 150 - 159 , London ; Longmans, Green , 1938; New York ; Longmans ,Green 1938 . This is his detailed account of the battle .

Brickhill , J.A. '' How I Escaped from the fatal field of Isandhlwautf, '' Africana Notes And News 29 , No 2 ( June 1990 ) 74 - 82 . This article consists of Brickhill's account of the battle of Isandhlwautf. It is based on Brickhill's account published in the Natal Witness , 10th May 1913 , which in turn seems to be the same as Brickhill's account published in the Sept 1879 Issue of Natal Magazine .

Hope this is of some help in attempting to find his complete account .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 7:22 am

Brickhill: Report
Talana museum ref AZW/16200/043

Regards
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 7:25 am

Brickhill writes: “The whole four and a half miles of the Ingutu were by this time covered with Zulus; they kept up a continuous fire upon our men, but appeared to me to shoot at too great a distance to be effectual. The Durnford's Horse, at the southern end were now drawing the Zulus down the southern nek in very large numbers. Those to the north retired to a crest which joins Isandlwana to the Ingutu. Leaving the horses well sheltered here, they held this crest splendidly, keeping up a galling fire which, with that of the White Mounted Force on the right, checked what was at first a very determined advance in the direction of the camp; and, instead of coming on, they passed the northernmost end of Ingutu. The artillery threw about 25 shots from different parts of the field during the battle. Four of these were very effective each tearing up what appeared to be an acre of ground in the enemy's masses. One of the guns, however, always appeared to shoot high whilst one shell burst half way, nearly over our foot native contingent. Durnford's Horse now appeared to the right of the conical hill, keeping up a steady fire and retreating parallel to the road to Mangeni Valley. A much larger force of Zulus now confronted them than we had yet seen, showing that the enemy had large accessions to his strength from the hidden end of Ingutu behind the conical hill."

"Brickhill continues: The mounted white force now went down to their assistance and these together held the plains so determinedly that the Zulu lines actually swerved once, and sought to mass together under cover of a kraal. A well-placed shot from one of the field pieces caused considerable havoc and scattered them from there. A general forward movement was now made by the enemy from the kraal just named, right away from the northern nek. This was opposed by the two guns and the infantry alone. The Native Contingent had left and passed through the camp; one determination seemed settled on them all: to escape. I could see nothing of the details of the infantry fighting because of the low lying land, but if the increasing gun roll kept up was any indication at all, the enemy's losses must have been terrible indeed. Our mounted force was now compelled to retire to the gulley. The Zulu left horn had extended two miles on the road to Mangeni Valley. They did not come on in lines, but evenly distributed. Nowhere could you catch three men well together and rarely two. In some places their front was a third of a mile in advance of their rear. This gulley the mounted forces held most tenaciously, every shot appearing to take effect, so much so that, with the havoc caused by the shell thrown in the kraal before mentioned, a thousand Zulu dead must have lain between the conical hill and the gulley. The leading Zulus finding that they were being mown down so terrible, threw themselves flat upon the ground to wait for others to come up, when up they jumped and came on again. One of Durnford's Horse now brought up a wounded companion sitting on the horse behind him. Our mounted men now turned to their horses. The Zulus took advantage of this slight break, and pushed across the gulley sharply, whilst the Zulu left horn drew in slightly towards the camp. A simultaneous forward movement was made by all the Zulus, and many of our mounted men who had ridden in for ammunition were closely followed in by them. Troops of all descriptions were now streaming through the various camps towards the Rorke's Drift nek. Simultaneously with this, the only body of soldiers yet visible rose from firing their last shot and joined me in the general flight. Panic was everywhere and no officer to guide, no shelter to fall back to. The only attempt at a stand that I know of, was made by the few that followed the Quartermaster and the Basutos, who had a narrow escape of being cut off at the crest, but who came through past the General's tent shouting to each other and keeping up their fire from a few rocks under Isandhlwana. The Zulus, for the last 300 yards, did not fire 25 shots but came on with a steady determination of walking down the camp by force of numbers.

Brickhill says : "There were thirty Zulus to every British soldier. At 120 yards distance they raised the cry "Usutu!", the name of Cetswayo's army which overthrew the Izigove under his brother, Umbulazi, in the fight for supremacy in 1856. The cry then was"Minizeld Usutu!" (The Usutu has swallowed up, or overwhelmed.). Since then, all Cetswayo's army goes by this name. They now came on with an overwhelming rush. I went back to the 1/24th (1st Battalion, 24th Foot Regiment, the South Wales Borderers) camp to see if I could find my companion, but could not. So, seeing that the Zulus were already stabbing in this camp, as well as the others, I joined the fugitives retreating over the nek, on reaching which I found all communication by the road we had come along cut off by several lines of Zulus running across. They had come along behind Isandlwana and thus intercepted our retreat. The Zulus' left horn had now come over the ridge south of Stony Kopje. They could have completed the circle, but preferred,I think, leaving this gap so that they might attack us in our flight and bring us to bay. The Isandlwana horn edged away more and more to the left and these two kept up a constant cross fire on us. Our flight I shall never forget: no path, no track and boulders everywhere. On were we borne; now into some dry torrent bed; now wending our way amongst some trees of stunted growth so that unless you made the best use of your eyes you were in constant danger of colliding with trees or finding yourself unhorsed at the bottom of the ravine. Our way was strewn with shields, assegais blankets, hats, clothing of all descriptions, guns ammunition belts and saddles which horses had managed to kick off, revolvers and belts, and I know not what else. Our stampede was composed of mules with and without pack saddles, oxen and horses in all sorts of equipment, and fleeing men all strangely intermingled; man and beast all apparently impressed with the danger which surrounded us. One riderless horse came alongside of me and I caught it and handed it to a poor soldier who was struggling along on foot. But he had scarcely mounted it before he was knocked off by a Zulu bullet. Whilst descending into the deep bed of the torrent, I saw Lieutenants Melville and Coghill and Mr Foley about 200 yards ahead, only more to the right. A stream of Zulus was fast pressing them down towards the course we were on. Scrambling over the rocky bed as best we could, we came up the hill on this side fully exposed to the enemy's fire. We here came to an abrupt halt by reason of a huge chasm of gulley which opened to view just in front of our horses. There was nothing for it but to turn sharply round and follow the course of the gulley down in the hope of finding a crossing somewhere. The constant (sound) of the Zulu bullets made one's ears tingle, and one of the mounted infantry, impatient with our Indian file, put his horse at the gully. It was a noble looking grey but the horse fell far short and the rider fell crushed twelve feet below. I have little doubt both horse and rider had found their grave. We found a crossing to the gully, but so steep that coming out on the far side I placed my arms round the horse's neck and my head as far forward as possible. Even, it will ever seem a puzzle how the horses got out without falling backwards. A little further I found Mr Melville carrying the colours. Turning to me, he asked,"Mr Brickhill, have you seen anything of my sword back there?" After glancing back upon our path for his satisfaction, I replied that I had not. He must have lost it before he joined us. Going down the Blackwater River, we had some very bad country, so bad, that we got off and led our horses. We were compelled to take a narrow pass, the fleeing party all converging at this point. Seeing the danger of Mr. Melville's position (for there was a steep precipice on his immediate left), I backed my horse and kept back others as well as I could. It was then that I became aware that Mr. Coghill was just behind, as he shouted "Get on your horse there, Mr Brickhill. This is no time for leaving a horse. Get on your horses you fellows in front." Someone near him said, "You get off yours.This is no place to be riding one!" I did not then know that he suffered from an injured knee and could not walk. As we shot down into the bed of the Blackwater, we had to slither down a steep bank of 8 or 9 feet. The impetus of Mr. Melville's horse had carried him under a tree, a large branch of which caught his right shoulder and nearly unhorsed him. I was able to catch the back swing of the branch, though it tore my coat well down. Rising to the far side, we were again exposed to the full fire of the enemy, still in hot pursuit. Crossing a little ridge, we came across a grass-covered bog. This scattered our party, each one feeling his own way out. My horse was now fagged. As I spurred him, he reared and my spectacles fell off. I peered down into the green grass to try and catch some reflection of them, but the whizz of a Zulu bullet reminded me that time was precious, so on I sped. Reaching the Buffalo we found it rolling high. No time for choosing the best crossing time then there were the Zulus in running lines making for the stiller water higher up. My horse plunged in swimming at once but had scarcely gone six yards before he stumbled over large obstruction and nearly fell into the rushing stream beyond. I clutched his mane and guided the rein with great care yet four times I thought all was lost. Not ten yards below was a waterfall, in the pool of which three riderless horses were swimming around.


Source: Hendrik's Hall of Honours
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 7:53 am

30 zulu versus 1 british at RD ? It's anything?

Impossible to know the number of Zulu in a single battle of this war, they even did not know ...

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
90th

avatar

Posts : 9276
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 61
Location : Melbourne, Australia

PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at R.D 1879.   Fri May 04, 2012 8:18 am

Hi Springbok.
Thanks for the post but unfortunately it does not cover all of it , as there is no mention of him losing his glasses in the swampy / marshy ground , also no mention of his conversation with Band Sgt Gamble . I assume his account would hold all these statements Question Happy to be corrected .
Cheers mate , 90th . Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 8:22 am

Whew all that typing for nothing. :lol:

Actually did a cut and paste without really looking.

Quite right. I will have a look for the full statement.

Just had a read through, it does mention the glasses incident, does miss out on his conversation with Gambol though.

Cheers Mate
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 8:42 am

The missing paragraph.

How ones bossom steels itself to pity at such a time. I came up with poor Band Sergeant Gamble tottering and tumbling about amongst the stones. He said, " For Gods sake give me a lift." I said, " My dear fellow its a case of life and death with me." And closing my eyes I put spurs to my horse and bounded ahead.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 8:44 am

Sorry Impi , but it's impossible to know the number of Zulu in a single battle of this war, they even did not know ...

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1804
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 9:15 am

impi
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 10:07 am

Hi Julian

What does that mean, in language more clear ?

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1804
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 10:54 am

Admin
Apologies for using French...Pascal in French it's prudence est mère de sureté.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 11:27 am

JULIAN

I 'm not French BUT breton ... Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Fri May 04, 2012 12:13 pm

Hi Gary (90th)

Yes my friend, I am well thank you.

Many thanks for your help with this, but it is actually impi that wanted the full Brickhill account, and I don't have it, however, I thought of you and all your collection of AZW articles, books, etc, and thought that maybe you would be the man that could sort this out for impi, and it is very good of you to search around looking for anything that may help out, thanks mate.

It looks like springbok has found the account, but with a few bits missing, however, the part containing the words SWB is included.

Looking at this passage, I would say that the actual words used by Brickhill were, "I went back to the 1/24th camp to see if I could find my companion", but that later (after July 1881), some unknown person has added the words shown in brackets, ie; (1st Battalion, 24th foot regiment, the South Wales Borderers), and confused the issue.

Brickhill could not have written these words in 1879, 1880, or even early 1881, as the name SWB did not exist until July 1881.

Martin. Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 1:37 pm

Impi Martin
From the original statement, the exact phrase used by Brickhill is, " I went back to the head of the 1/24 camp to see if I could see anything of my companions.

Earlier he talks of being close to QM Pullen in the 2/24th camp. No mention in either place of the South Wales Borderers

Hope that helps.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1804
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 2:25 pm

Of course there's no mention of the SWB - he was having you on! I know it's not April Fools' Day but really...
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 2:41 pm

As the saying goes Julian, 'anything for a bit of peace'.

Anyway Im on African time, 34 days behind the rest of the world.

regards
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1804
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 2:48 pm

Let him who desires peace prepare for war.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 2:58 pm

'Peace is the first of necessities, and the first of glories.'
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 3:24 pm

War is the continuation of a bad policy in ways even worse.

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Fri May 04, 2012 4:01 pm

Hi springbok.

Yes, I thought that would have been the original words used by Brickhill, and that someone had added the words in brackets at a later date. They may have done it because of the name change in 1881, but by doing so, they have caused confusion for later generation readers, and inadvertently made it appear as though the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, was called the SWB during the AZW. They might have done this innocently (because of the name change in 1881), however, you never know, it could well have been done deliberately to cause confusion for other readers, and if so, what an absolute rotter Mad :lol:

Cheers mate. Salute
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 1804
Join date : 2011-09-12

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri May 04, 2012 4:14 pm

M Cooper
None of Brickhill's accounts include the phrase SWB. There is no 'rotter'. Impi simply wrote what he did to wind you up.
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Fri May 04, 2012 4:42 pm

:lol: Right, thanks for that Julian.

impi, you absolute stinker, Shocked now your 'forrit', Suspect you can consider yourself on jankers :lol:

Well done impi, nice one mate. Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat May 05, 2012 2:07 pm

Martin

Have to defend impi Im afraid. The version I posted and I assume the version Impi alluded to is on this forum under the heading of eye witness accounts. And that was posted by Admin, man to blame has to be Pistol Pete.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Sat May 05, 2012 4:21 pm

Thanks for that springy.

impi, you are off the hook mate, jankers cancelled. :lol:

I now find myself in a bit of a fix, scratch

as I can't put the "Boss" on jankers can I ? Shocked :lol:

I will have to take it like a gentleman, and say, well done Pete, you got me with that one. :joker:

Martin. Salute

Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3578
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat May 05, 2012 4:50 pm

That's what happens when you don't use primary sources. Let that be a lesson to you all. Thanks Springbok, Just push the knife in and give it a twist.

PS To what post are you referring to " Springbok" could you post a link. Rolling Eyes
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat May 05, 2012 5:30 pm

Admin. have you moved the post in- question. :lol:
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun May 06, 2012 9:22 am

Admin
The account in question is under the topic of Zulu War Eye Witness Accounts. Sorry about twisting the knife Pete, hope you got the 'point' though.

Regards
Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun May 06, 2012 9:31 am

Springbok. Can you post a link. I can't find it. It was there I'm sure.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun May 06, 2012 9:36 am

impi
Doesnt apear to be there any more.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

avatar

Posts : 1906
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 20

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun May 06, 2012 8:53 pm

Mr Cooper

I have just got in from helping the iButho group in Llandudno all day.

I had to answer questions to the public, and the amount of people that asked about the welsh regiment at
Rorke's Drift is unbelievable, i had to put over 11 people right.



Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Mon May 07, 2012 12:14 am

Hi DB.

Many thanks for putting those 11 people right, very good of you. Salute

But just imagine how many more uninitiated people there are out there that really do believe that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was Welsh. Shocked

And all this is through the myth brought about by Bakers almost fictional film, and also through the various web sites (and other places), that avoid mentioning the regiments English origins and its English County name at the time of the AZW, by wording their literature in such a way to disguise these facts.

Good on you DB for informing these people of the regiments English origins, and of the REAL name of the regiment that fought during the AZW at both iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift.

The more people that are properly informed about this injustice to the memory of the REAL noble 24th, the sooner this Welsh myth will be busted.

Keep up the good work.

Regards.

Martin. Salute

Back to top Go down
impi

avatar

Posts : 2309
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 37

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Mon May 07, 2012 4:37 pm

DB don't take any notice of what " Brickhill Says"
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

avatar

Posts : 3578
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 58
Location : KENT

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Tue May 29, 2012 8:01 pm

A sign in the Talana Museum.
Photo by Springbok.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
http://www.1879zuluwar.com
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Wed May 30, 2012 12:58 pm

Hi springbok.

I can see why you sent Pete this photo to post up for you, many thanks mate.

Although the photo cuts off some of the wording, people reading this will be able to understand the meaning of it, and that the real name of the regiment that fought in the AZW at iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift was the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and not a mythical Welsh regiment created by one mans Welsh ego and his almost fictional film.

I especially like the bit that says that the 1964 film "Zulu" was incorrect in reflecting that in 1879 the name of the regiment was the SWB, and that the majority of the troops came from Wales.

What a pity that other museums, regimental web sites, exhibitions, etc, etc, don't follow this fine example shown by the Talana museum , and give the people the proper details ie; the regiments English origins and the REAL name of the regiment that fought in the AZW. But then again, these sort of places feed off the glory won by others, and therefor hide and disguise the REAL name of the noble 24th regiment with its English county title, as they would rather let the uninitiated people beiieve in fantasy rather than fact, shame on them.

Thanks springy, and thanks to Pete for posting this photo.

Much obliged.

Martin. Salute
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

avatar

Posts : 6422
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 70
Location : Cape Town South Africa

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed May 30, 2012 2:10 pm

Call me clairvoyant if you like but just had a feeling that might cause a comment. I do have the whole wording Martin but that was the crtical bit. Apart from the signwriter that made it that is.............Gwilliam Jones I recall. :lol:

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

avatar

Posts : 2505
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Wed May 30, 2012 3:15 pm

Hello Clair Voyant. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gwilliam Jones my eye Suspect :lol:

Cheers springy (or should that be Clair) Shocked :lol:

Salute

Back to top Go down
MadDrDevo

avatar

Posts : 41
Join date : 2012-03-22
Age : 42
Location : Ft Lauderdale Fl

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Hi Bill and all

I think tasker is trying to make more of this than needs be. In his attempt to show that there were more Welshmen at Rorke's Drift, he is quoting from 'The Noble 24th' by Norman Holme, but what he isn't telling you is that the figures he quotes are not where the men where born, but where they enlisted, a bit of a cunning ploy what? Read appendix 7 on page 383.

Yes, the 24th's depot had been moved to Brecon by the government in 1873, but both battalions of the regiment had never been there when the Zulu war started in 1879, and both battalions consisted of long term service men, meaning that it would have been well after Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift before newly trained recruits would have started to filter through to the ranks.

No matter which way people like to think about all this, the truth is that Stanley Baker and the 1964 film 'Zulu' tried to alter historical facts, and make it appear that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, was a Welsh regiment, which it was not, they said that it was full of Welshmen with a few forigners from England, which it was not, they implied that the regimental song was 'men of harlech. which it was not, it was actaully 'The Warwickshire Lad', they said it was called the SWB which it was not, it was called the 2nd Warwickshire regiment, they tried to imply that most V.C's went to Welshmen, which they did not. Stanley Baker appears to have had score to settle with the English, he did his best to make things appear so very Welsh, yet ironically he played an Englishman Lt Chard (because he wanted to play the part of the supposed hero), how two faced can some people get?


ive been thinking about this. the depot is moved in 1873.. that means that 6 years elapse during the time of the move to the time of the Zulu war. .during that time we KNOW the 24th fought in the Xhosha wars just before and most likely fought other policing type actions.. Cooper in order for No One at all in the regiment to come from Brecon that would mean that from1873 to 1879 they didnt suffer any causalites??!!. thus no one would need to be sent from the depot to where ever the regiment was formed.. unless they recruited locally

It doesnt matter where the unit is stationed but where the men are recruited from.. just ponder that a moment

now the movie also does not at any point say or make one believe the welsh got all the medals.. in fact all the people we are shown, with the exception of shciess, who get one are the english.
the only welsh ones they show i think are the jones with no shirts. and the only reason one would know they were welsh is because they are the ones that say "with a foriegners from england"

Hook, hitch, chard, bromhead, allen, bourne and even windridge.. all english and they are the ones that could be classified as main characters

Honestly i think you are seeing something that no one else sees
Back to top Go down
MadDrDevo

avatar

Posts : 41
Join date : 2012-03-22
Age : 42
Location : Ft Lauderdale Fl

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:39 pm

Neil Bates wrote:
I feel I have to involve myself in this. The point surely is that the particular regt involved in the Zulu War was the 24th Regt of Foot , a Warwickshire regt! To say anything else is untrue. It doesn't matter about the ethnic origin of the soldiers involved, that was how it was. It is a massive problem with films, they take libertys with the truth and then say 'Oh it's only a film, not a documentary.' People believe what they see on the screen and so often it is not true. That cannot be a good thing. I don't see that it can be acceptable to change the historical truth to make a film - surely you can weave a storyline around what actually happened. I do feel very strongly on this issue. Neil

Neil

see the problem is both names identify the same unit, just at different times. as i pointed out elsewhere you could in theory call the 24th Derring Regiment(its original name) or Howards Greens a name from about 100 years later, or 2nd Warwickshires OR SWB. All names refer to the same regiment. the flag flying over the troops of each of those regiments would have the same battle honors painted on them

as for people believing what they see on screen, well most people are morons and we can not help that, but we do have to understand that.
also the point of the film was to entertain and not educate
Back to top Go down
MadDrDevo

avatar

Posts : 41
Join date : 2012-03-22
Age : 42
Location : Ft Lauderdale Fl

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:52 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Bill
You now seem to be getting rather personal with your accusations suggesting that I am anti Welsh, I have explained that I have nothing whatsoever against the Welsh, indeed, I have Welsh ancestors, Welsh relatives, and yes, I do have Welsh friends.

I wonder how you would answer the following questions regarding the 24th regiment.
Was it raised in England?
Was it founded as part of William of Orange's defence of the English Kingdom?
Was it later given the English County title of the 2nd Warwickshire regiment?
Is Warwickshire in England?
Would you therefor say that it was an English regiment?
Was it called the 2nd Warwickshire regiment during the AZW?
Was it a Welsh regiment during the AZW?
Were there more Welshmen than Englishmen at Rorke's Drift?
Why did characters in the film say that the 24th was a Welsh regiment?
Why did they sing 'Men of Harlech' if it was not to add to the impression that it was a Welsh regiment?
Why did Richard Burton say that the regiment was called the SWB?
Was all this done to give people the impression that the 24th regiment was Welsh?

WHY?



Ok first the little bit at the top about Welsh Friends.. please refer to what i said about the southern racists here in the US. they say the SAME THING, indeed here in the states when you hear "well i have jewish friends" its usually followed by something someone would consider racist. and it seems i am not the only one who thinks you really do hate the welsh.. it may not be your intention but that is how it sounds.

now for the rest
1 you know it was
2 you know it was
3 maybe it is but it doesnt really matter
4 define an english regiment? wouldnt any regiment of the british army be a british regiment?
5 yes but it was also called the SWB that name, while not accurate at the time, does apply to the 24th regiment of foot
6 again what does that really mean? nothing because even in some of the scottish regiment at the time the majority arent always scots
other than a few minor differences in the uniform there is little difference
7 because it was in the script and unless they are all part of this giant welsh conspiracy i think we can say thats the only reason
and its probably due to poor research on the part of the film makers.. because again they werent making a documentary
8 well once the unit BECAME welsh that was the song.. so its not that much of a greivance really
9 again because he was paid to say what was written in the script, that is how movies generally work. and again unless he is part of this hidden welsh agenda to undermine the poor warwickshires i am pretty sure thats about it there too
10 no not at all, because out side of maybe you, no one cared.Cy Enfield is an american, so he doesnt care about the internal politics of england.. especially when the internal politics of the US got him banned and exiled. and while Baker might be Welsh i dont see that he made an anti england movie or tried to push any agenda

WHY? why not? but why get all bent out of shape about it? there is not conspiracy here.
The only thing you can really say about this movie in so far as messages go is a the basic socialist message that the man with brains can do a better job than the man with privilege. Thats about all i got out of it, that and dont mess with those limeys!
Back to top Go down
MadDrDevo

avatar

Posts : 41
Join date : 2012-03-22
Age : 42
Location : Ft Lauderdale Fl

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:16 pm

bill cainan wrote:
Martin


Your constant defence of the Warwickshire link is admirable, if somewhat tiresome. You really need to develop a greater understanding of the traditions and heritage of the British Army to understand how todays Regiments can trace their lineage back over the centuries, inheriting distinguished military traditions from their predecessors. It is a constantly evolving process.

No one is disputing the title of the Regiment in 1879, and any reference to it being the SWB originate from one statement narrated by Richard Burton at the end of 'Zulu' - an innocent slip I'm sure. However, have you thought of writing to the distributors of the DVD asking them to include a correction on the box cover ? Though, I suppose then they'd have to include corrections on the dozens of other mistakes in the film !!!! Do the NNC complain about Schiess being portrayed as being in the NMP !!!!!!!


Bill

Thank you.. someone understands how this works.. i have been saying all along that both names are techinically correct and refer to the same regiment in the british army.
I think part of the issue is that Martin may not understand the period as a whole or even the british army as a whole

to that end i would recommend he read mr kiplings army by byron farwell. its really helps you understand the way people thought about the regiment, thier daily life and a lot of other interesting stuff
also British infantry in South Africa by Osprey Publishing.. very good iniformation there
While they dont address the welshness of any regiment it does help to understand why a man in the 24th would be in the same regiment if he fought at Battle of Chillianwala in the 1840s is still in the same regiment that fought in south africa in 1879 and later after the name change took effect.
If you look at the battle standard all the battle honors will be there. no one is able to "take credit" for someone elses work. which you seem to site as your major issue with all this. you are the only one who thinks that and that is because you are wholly ignorant of the way those people at the time felt about it.

i can not help but draw a parallel here.. does anyone remember the far side? the comic strip inthe 80s?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
the link above is to one of his more "controversial" strips. in it a female ape is grooming a male ape and finds a blonde hair.
the captions says "Well Well another blonde hair, you have been conducting "research" with that Jane Goodall tramp"
the jane goodall society went NUTS they tried to sue they raised a huge hue and cry on behalf of Jane Goodall
who in the end told them to stop.. she thought it was funny. same thing here. the people that should actually be getting as insensed about this as you do are A all dead, and B if they werent they really were fine with the name change and didnt care at all.

Back to top Go down
littlehand

avatar

Posts : 7066
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 49
Location : Down South.

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:19 pm

Bill Cainan's view. scratch

Click Here
Back to top Go down
bill cainan



Posts : 219
Join date : 2011-09-19

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:11 pm

Littlehand

Thanks for including this. That Bill Cainan seems to have hit the nail on the head !!

Bill
(Bill Cainan)
Back to top Go down
tasker224

avatar

Posts : 2105
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 50
Location : North London

PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:08 pm

Welcome to hte thread Mad DrDevo.
I had hoped that this debate was all behind us!
As Bill has said previously, there were and still are no English or Welsh or Scottish regiments (unless the Scots gain independence in the next few years).
The 24th was a British regiment in 1879, populated by men who enlisted in English counties mainly, followed by a large proportion who enlisted in Welsh counties, then Irish, with some Scots and one or two others form the colonies. But no matter where they were from, this was a British regiment populated by men loyal to each other and serving Queen Victoria and her government.
Where they enlisted, compared to everything else that they endured is unimportant and insignificant. I am sure it would not have crossed their minds!
Obviously it was importanat to Stanley Baker and stil is to one or two people on this forum, but as you have repeated, this film was made to entertain, not educate. Rather like Enigma.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   

Back to top Go down
 
The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 4 of 4Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: