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 The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:48 pm

Welsh, English makes no difference..................... neither country can produce a decent rugby team. :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:02 pm

By definition, the place where one is born to a some extent at least defines their nationality. A man born in Birmingham is English, a Warwickshire man, right? To suggest anything else is illogical, and desperate quite frankly particularly if the suggestion is used to further some childish or unsavoury argument.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:19 pm


Remember:

1. Robert Jones was certainly illiterate and his statement would have been taken and written by an educated man of officer class, who would have been completely on message about what the statements needed to contain.
2. The 11VCs and VC statements were for public consumption to deflect from a disatrous event the other side of the river and the part of the statement quoted by Martin is the very end of Jones' statement. The style is one of great literary expressionism, not that of a private soldier, but has been added on to the end as a jingoistic, defiant flourish. Jones would have felt obliged and happy to accept its inclusion.
3. The word "English" has long been used, and still is incorrectly used frequently in place of "British." (My kids still think "England" won the Great and Second World wars, much to my consternation! And they are bright A* students!)
I don't think the officer who wrote Jones' statement was trying to fool anyone into believing Jones was English, but the word English has long been used interchangeably. Even today we hear about "the queen of England.!
4. I can think of several witness statements that turned out to not be all that they appeared with the odd, shall we say, inaccuracy. Remember the man who allegedly killed Jill Dando, Colin Stagg, the Guildford 4? I have seen Robert Jones' witness statement before. What is the source? It is a very good example of why we can't believe everything we hear and read.

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Neil Bates



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:29 pm

I stand by my previous posts regarding differing views on Monmouthshire in the past but I'm bowing out of this now before it all degenerates further.
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Kable
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:54 pm

I'm lost. Where is this going ?


"You want to win ? Turn me loose !" - Gamer
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DundeeBoer

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:58 pm

Hi Graves,

If my arithmetic is correct and my eyes aren’t playing tricks on me...... the 21 should be:


1st Batt

1-24/1861 Private William Horrigan

2nd Batt

25B/987 Private Robert Adams
25B/918 Private William Bennett
2-24/2427 Private John Bly
25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley
25B/1335 Private James Chick
2-24/2453 Private William Cooper
25B/1357 Private Michael Deane
25B/969 Private John Fagan
2-24/2429 Private Edward Gee
25B/970 Private John Jones
2-24/2437 Private Peter Judge
25B/1304 Private Joshua Lodge
2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan
25B/968 Private Thomas Moffatt
25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison
25B/1065 Private James Ruck
25B/1051 Private John Scanlon
25B/641 Private Patrick Tobin
25B/1187 Private William Wilcox
25B/1316 Private Caleb Wood


Regards, Jeff
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90th

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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at RD 1879.   Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:09 am

Hi Graves1879.
I had a quick look at the names and a few of these are covered in Kris Wheatley's outstanding works on those who
were at the drift .
cheers 90th.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:23 am

Deleted. Caused offence to another member.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:23 am

Holme also omitted several soldiers and made errors in the entries regarding another dozen or so. Can I refer you to my article 'More Noble 24th: an addendum to Norman Holme’s monumental work' published in the Journal of the Victorian Military Society, March 2002, Issue 108, which should help fill in the gaps.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:41 am

Of Holme's 21 unknowns:
2-24/2453 Private William Cooper born Tottenham, Middlesex
25B/968 Private Thomas Moffatt born Runcorn, Cheshire
25B/1187 Private William Wilcox born Hartland Devon
25B/1316 Private Caleb Wood born Ruddington Nottinghamshire
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:50 pm

DundeeBoer wrote:
Hi Graves,

If my arithmetic is correct and my eyes aren’t playing tricks on me...... the 21 should be:


1st Batt

1-24/1861 Private William Horrigan

2nd Batt

25B/987 Private Robert Adams
25B/918 Private William Bennett
2-24/2427 Private John Bly
25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley
25B/1335 Private James Chick
2-24/2453 Private William Cooper
25B/1357 Private Michael Deane
25B/969 Private John Fagan
2-24/2429 Private Edward Gee
25B/970 Private John Jones
2-24/2437 Private Peter Judge
25B/1304 Private Joshua Lodge
2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan
25B/968 Private Thomas Moffatt
25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison
25B/1065 Private James Ruck
25B/1051 Private John Scanlon
25B/641 Private Patrick Tobin
25B/1187 Private William Wilcox
25B/1316 Private Caleb Wood


Regards, Jeff

Nice one Jeff, you beat me to it. I concur with your findings.
In Holme's Noble 24th, the biographical details of the men give their place of birth, which would appear to be the main criterion for Holme's assigning of nationality, and/or their place of enlistment, or neither.
I too Jeff, can find only 21 men with neither bit of information, hence the unknown nationality. I am pleased to say that my list matches yours.
Thanks too, to Julian, who has already begun the task of identifying the nationalities of these 21 "unknown" men. It would be great if all the nationalities of these 21 men could be found out.
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:01 pm

Quote :
I'm now bowing out of this one too. There is no point arguing that black is white with a lunatic, but a few facts to say au revoir with.

Tasker would you be so kind as to state who this was aimed at.


OFFENDING TOPIC DELETED.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:03 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Holme also omitted several soldiers and made errors in the entries regarding another dozen or so. Can I refer you to my article 'More Noble 24th: an addendum to Norman Holme’s monumental work' published in the Journal of the Victorian Military Society, March 2002, Issue 108, which should help fill in the gaps.

Sounds like a fascinating bit of work and an article I would very much like to have in my library, Julian. Please can you tell me how I can purchase a copy? (Would contacting the VMS be the best way)?
How did you go about finding this extra information? Did you also revisit Norman Holme's findings and double check his research in order to discover the dozen errors?
Many thanks indeed, Tasker.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:05 pm

Hi All

Many many thanks for all the information provided, it has been great Idea

I will let you know my findings when they are complete. Very Happy:

😕
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runner2



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:16 pm

Hi
Do not question, Tasker! He gets very annoyed, sulks, then sends you an abusive PM! When you send an equally abusive one back, he reports you to admin!!!!!!!!!
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:12 pm


good evening

And the guys you have not finished?

Welsh or English? We do not care, the wonderful 24 th Foot of Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift, that's all ...

Many Welsh have English ancestors ... many English have Welsh ancestors without knowing...

All this is good British grain-fed ...

In any case the date of birth of Wales, it is in AD 580 WITH THE BATTLE OF CHESTER ...

So it is only with a map of that time you will know who to Germanic or Celtic ancestors;...

In all cases, the most Celtic, on the forum, it's me, no photos ...

Cheers

Pascal














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Guest
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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:30 pm

good evening

And the guys you have not finished?

Welsh or English? We do not care, the wonderful 24 th Foot of Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift, that's all ...

Many Welsh have English ancestors ... many English have Welsh ancestors without knowing...

All this is good British grain-fed ...

In any case the date of birth of Wales, it is in AD 580 WITH THE BATTLE OF CHESTER ...

So it is only with a map of that time you will know who to Germanic or Celtic ancestors;...

In all cases, the most Celtic, on the forum, it's me, no photos ...

Cheers

Pascal



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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:05 pm

runner2 wrote:
Hi
Do not question, Tasker! He gets very annoyed, sulks, then sends you an abusive PM! When you send an equally abusive one back, he reports you to admin!!!!!!!!!

Whaaaaaaaaaaa! Why are you still stalking me, you creep?

Admin, please can you finally do something about this creep stalking me?

runner2, the PM i Sent you was not abusive, it simply points out a few home truths about you, to you. If it was painful to read, take a look at yourself and do some self-improvement.

The complaint I made to admin about you was not in regard to a difference of opinion, that is what happens on discussion forums, it is about you stalking me. Back off!
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:23 pm

"Of the 122 soldiers of the 24th Regiment present at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, 49 are known to have been of English nationality, 32 were Welsh, 16 were Irish, 1 was a Scot, and 3 were born overseas. The nationalities of the remaining 21 are unknown."

Further to this, according to Norman Holme, only 4 of these men were from the county of Warwickshire itself.

(Source: Norman Holme (1999) The Noble 24th p. 383)


Before this thread started, I was fairly certain that the 24th Foot defenders at RD were a Warwickshire regiment, but now I am not so sure that it had very much to do with Warwickshire, at all. Other than the fact that it's nominal title of "Warwickshire" had become defunct and was no longer representative of the men who served in the 24th Foot.
Only 2 of the RD defenders were born in the county and only 4 enlisted in it.
In 1873 the regiment based itself in Brecon, Wales, and by 1879 almost none were from Warwickshire itself - see above. 70% of the 1st Battalion trained in Brecon and 75% of the 2nd battalion were Brecon trained, (Bill Cainan). The governmaent simply had not got round to renaming the regiment to a more appropriate title, more representative of the men who served in it until the Carden reforms of 1881. The government obviously had more pressing matters on the agenda between 1873 and 1881 and the men who served in the 24th had more pressing matters to attend to at that time, than what the nominal title of their regiment was and whether to sing Men of Harlech or Warwickshire Lad whilst they were under attack and dying side by side.
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:38 pm

"We discovered in that depressing, hellish place where death was our constant companion that we loved each other. We killed for each other, we died for each other and we wept for each other. And in time we came to love each other as brothers. In battle our world shrank to the man on our left and the man on our right and the enemy all around. We held each other's lives in our hands and we learned to share our fears, our hopes, our dreams as readily as we shared what little else good came our way"

Sums it up really. Idea
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:19 pm

Hi All

First find, 25B/1304 Private Joshua Lodge

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:49 pm

I think you'll find Kris Wheatley has already recorded Lodge's place of birth correctly as well as many others in her excellent labour of love 'Legacy of the Rorke's Drift Heroes'.
I should point out that Holme has many errors in his birthplaces in The Noble 24th such that your '21 unknowns' will turn into many more. I do have a list of all the corrections to his work that I could find (many of them unpublished) which I've never bothered to collate (I didn't think anyone would be interested) but if you are interested and it would save you time/work then I will publish them on this website - but AFTER Christmas.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:56 pm

Hi Julian

Yes very much interested and would be appreciated, thanks.
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90th

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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at RD 1879.   Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:59 pm

Hi Julian .
Many thanks for your offer , it's much appreciated by all .
cheers 90th. 😕
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:30 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Julian .
Many thanks for your offer , it's much appreciated by all .
cheers 90th. 😕

I second that, yes definitely interested Julian and thanks.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:58 pm

Hi
Here’s my Christmas present to you.
There were 123 known participants from the 24th at RD, possibly 3 more.
Holme used enlistment places as indication of county birthplace – incredibly unreliable in fact.
I’ve listed below according to birthplaces and enlistment places (marked ℮) according to Holme, birthplaces according to Wheatley, corrections to both & my own researches.
All places are listed under the county in which they were in at the time of birth/enlistment.
N.B. London did not become a county till 1889; Monmouthshire was legally, judicially, and administratively an English county from 1536.
My own assessment is wait for Wheatley to complete her research of ALL the RD men - she's a sound worker.

Patricipants:

ENGLAND:

2/24th 25B/968 Private Thomas Moffatt Runcorn Cheshire
2/24th 25B/889 Private Thomas Taylor Hatton Cheshire

2/24th 25B/777 Private Thomas Stevens Exeter Devon
2/24th 25B/1187 Private William Wilcox Hartland Devon

2/24th 25B/972 Private George Edwards Bristol Gloucestershire
2/24th 25B/1373 Private Alfred Henry Hook Churcham Gloucestershire

2/24th 25B/755 Private Thomas Clayton Leominster Herefordshire
2/24th 25B 1410 Private William Partridge Ross-on-Wye Herefordshire

2/24th 25B/964 Private James Marshall Hitchin Hertfordshire

2/24th 25B/1497 Private John Wall Deptford Kent
2/24th 25B/1459 Private Robert Cole Chatham Kent

2/24th 2-24/913 Private James Ashton Liverpool Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1220 Private Thomas Burke Liverpool Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1176 Private Thomas Lockhart Manchester Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1304 Private Joshua Lodge Hulme Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1279 Private William Neville Ince in Makerfield Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1257 Private Robert Norris Liverpool Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1005 Private John Smith Wigan Lancashire
2/24th 25B/1280 Private John Thomas Bootle cum Linacre Lancashire
2/24th 2-24/1713 Drummer Patrick Galgey either Lancashire
or Cork Co. Cork
1/24th 25B/135 Private William Beckett ℮ Manchester Lancashire
1/24th 25B/372 Private Thomas Payton ℮ Manchester Lancashire
2/24th 25B/525 Private Frederick Morris ℮ Liverpool Lancashire

1/24th 1-24/447 Private John Waters Westminster Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/1387 Sergeant George Smith Stamford Hill Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/582 Corporal John Barker French Kensington Middlesex
2/24th 25B/1287 Lance-Corporal William Henry Bessell Bethnal Green St. Peter’s Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/2381 Drummer James Keefe St. Giles-in-the-Fields Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/2310 Private Anthony Connors Westminster Middlesex
2/24th 25B/1363 Private William Henry Davis Bethnal Green St. Bartholomew Middlesex
2/24th 25B/1467 Private George Deacon Paddington Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/1634 Private William Dicks Islington Middlesex
2/24th 25B/1362 Private Frederick Hitch Edmonton Middlesex
2/24th 25B/1284 Private Charles Mason St. Giles Cripplegate Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/1618 Private George Shearman Hayes Middlesex
2/24th 2/24/914 Private John Shergold Chelsea Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/977 Private Alfred Whitton Old Street St. Luke Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/2404 Private Arthur Sears Harmondsworth Middlesex
2/24th 2-24/2453 Private William Cooper Tottenham Middlesex

2/24th 25B/1112 Corporal John Jeremiah Lyons Sowhill Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1061 Private John Samuel Jobbins Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1428 Private Evan Jones Nantyglo Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/716 Private Robert Jones Penrose Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1186 Private Samuel Pitt Portskewett Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1185 Private Edward Savage Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1395 Private John Williams Abergavenny Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/906 Private John Connolly Trevethin Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/623 Sergeant Robert Maxfield Monmouth Monmouthshire
1/24th 25B/841 Private James Jenkins ℮ Monmouth Monmouthshire
1/24th 25B/625 Private Edward Nicholas ℮ Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1381 Private Thomas Barry ℮ Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/801 Private Thomas Cole ℮ Monmouth Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1421 Private James Dunbar ℮ Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/662 Private John Murphy ℮ Tredegar Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1480 Private William Osborne ℮ Pontypool Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/973 Private Frederick Taylor ℮ Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/641 Private Patrick Tobin ℮ Newport Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/1398 Private Joseph Williams ℮ Monmouth Monmouthshire
2/24th 25B/953 Private Frederick Evans ℮ Monmouth Monmouthshire

2/24th 25B/1316 Private Caleb Wood Ruddington Nottinghamshire
2/24th 25B/1315 Private Robert Tongue Ruddington Nottinghamshire

2/24th 2-24/1528 Private Henry Lines Chipping Warden Northamptonshire

2/24th 2-24/1240 Corporal William Wilson Allen either Newcastle-upon-Tyne Northumberland
or Belford Northumberland

2/24th 25B/1178 Private Thomas Daw Merriott Somerset
2/24th 25B/756 Private Henry Herbert Martin West Lydford Somerset

2/24th 2-24/735 Sergeant Joseph Windridge Southwark Surrey
2/24th 25B/1181 Private William Henry Camp Camberwell Surrey

2/24th 2-24/2459 Colour-Sergeant Frank Bourne Balcombe Sussex

2/24th 25B/1524 Private Joseph Bromwich Warwick Warwickshire
2/24th 25B/1241 Private Thomas Chester Knowle Warwickshire
2/24th 2-24/1812 Private William Tasker Birmingham Warwickshire

2/24th 25B/849 Corporal Alfred Saxty Minety Wiltshire

2/24th 2-24/593 Private William Jones Evesham Worcestershire

2/24th 25B/82 Lance-Sergeant James Taylor Meltham Yorkshire

73(74)

IRELAND:

2/24th 2-24/2067 Drummer Patrick Hayes Six Mile Bridge Co. Clare
2/24th 2-24/1441 Private John Lyons Kallaloe Co. Clare

2/24th 2-24/1323 Private Timothy Connors Killeady Co. Cork
2/24th 2-24/1527 Private Michael Minehan Castlehaven Co. Cork
2/24th 2-24/1731 Private John Manley ℮ Cork Co. Cork

1/24th 25B/104 Private Henry Turner either Ball Bridge Co. Dublin
or Killeatty Co. Wexford
2/24th 2-24/2350 Private James Bushe Dublin Co. Dublin
2/24th 25B/1342 Private Augustus Morris Dublin Co. Dublin
2/24th 25B/1286 Private Thomas Robinson Dublin Co. Dublin
2/24th 2-24/1769 Private Garret Hayden ℮ Dublin Co. Dublin

2/24th 25B/942 Private Thomas Michael Lynch Limerick Co. Limerick

2/24th 25B/972 Private Patrick Kears Co. Roscommon?

2/24th 25B/81 Sergeant Henry Gallagher Killinane Co. Tipperary
2/24th 25B/798 Private James Hagan Neenagh Co. Tipperary

14(15)

SCOTLAND:

1/24th 1-24/1542 Private William Roy Portmoak Kinross-shire

1

WALES:

1/24th 25B/295 Private David Jenkins Devynnock Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/1062 Private John Harris Crickhowell Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/1399 Private Samuel Parry Sirhowy Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/1328 Lance-Sergeant Thomas Williams ℮ Brecon Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/918 Private William Bennett ℮ Brecon Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/1386 Private Michael Kiley ℮ Brecon Brecknockshire
2/24th 25B/1394 Private John Thompson ℮ Brecon Brecknockshire

2/24th 25B/470 Private George Davies ℮ Wrexham Denbighshire

2/24th 25B/970 Private John Jones Caedraw Glamorganshire
2/24th 25B/1179 Private John Jones Merthyr Tydfil Glamorganshire
2/24th 25B/1409 Private David Lloyd Dowlais Glamorganshire
2/24th 25B/934 Private John Williams Barristown Glamorganshire

2/24th 25B/1396 Private Thomas Collins Pelcomb Pembrokeshire
2/24th 25B/963 Private David Lewis Gorsgoch Pembrokeshire
1/24th 25B/568 Private Patrick Desmond ℮ Fort Hubberstone Pembrokeshire

15

OVERSEAS:

1/24th 25B/56 Sergeant Edward Wilson Peshawar N.W. Frontier Province India
2/24th Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead Versailles Île de France France

2

UNKNOWN:

1/24th 1-24/1861Private William Horrigan
2/24th 2-24/2389 Corporal John Key
2/24th 25B/1282 Lance-Corporal William Halley
2/24th 2-24/2427 Private John Bly
2/24th 25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley
2/24th 25B/1357 Private Michael Deane
2/24th 25B/971 Private Thomas Driscoll
2/24th 25B/969 Private John Fagan
2/24th 2-24/2429 Private Edward Gee
2/24th 2-24/2437 Private Peter Judge
2/24th 25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison
2/24th 25B/1281 Private William John Todd
2/24th 2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan
2/24th 25B/1051 Private John Scanlon
2/24th 25B/987 Private Robert Adams
2/24th 25B/1335 Private James Chick
2/24th 25B/1065 Private James Ruck

17

Possible Participants:

IRELAND:

2/24th 2-24/1697 Private James Dick Island Magee Co. Antrim
2/24th 25B/879 Private Michael Tobin Windgap Co. Kilkenny

2

WALES:

2/24th 25B/954 Private Thomas Evans Tonypandy Glamorganshire

1


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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:22 pm

good evening Julian

When you're Welsh (Celtic ancestors) or English (Celtic ancestors, germanic or Scandinavian or otherwise) is by blood, not place of birth.

Even the name does not prove anything should know the complete géanologie of each soldier, which is impossible ...

In addition, the borders between Wales and England have constantly shaky ...

So I think it is impossible to know how Welsh ect ... there was at Rorke's Drift

However your work, Great work, you, you are a professional historian, it is immediately obvious that ...

Bravo Julian !!!

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Yes, many thanks Julian a wonderful Xmas present, and superbly well researched! Well done. I will print out a copy and keep it in my Noble 24th!

I would still have to take issue however with the Monmouthshire lads being claimed as Englishmen! Yes, "Monmouthshire was legally, judicially, and administratively an English county" but so were the Falklands briefly in 1982 and so were the Channel Islands in WW2. Any descendant today, of a citizen of Jersey who was born just before liberation May 1945, might have a hard time accepting their parent or grandparent as being German!
Whilst this might be true if we are being pedantic, as Pascal says, really, it is in the blood! (Remember, a boy may be born in what is legally and administrattively a stable, but that doesn't make him a horse)!

However we label the men of the 24th Foot, Welsh, English, Scots, Irish, Overseas (as in the case of Lt Bromhead), we will never be sure of their nationality - whatever that means. What we can be sure of though, is their allegiance to Britain and their Queen. Red blooded British soldiers to the core. As a Brit, proud of them, every single one.

Have a great Xmas and New Year Julian.
Tasker



Last edited by tasker224 on Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: The Welsh soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift   Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Many thanks for the list Julian, it is indeed a good Christmas present.

Let us hope that it puts an end to a lot of bickering between some of the members on the forum.

Well done, and have a great time over the festive season.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:50 pm

Agreed!
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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at R.D 79.   Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:17 am

Hi Julian .
Thanks for you private information it is well and truly appreciated by the Forum members .

Tasker .
I dashed off a copy to put in my copy of ' The Noble 24th ' as well .

merry xmas all .
cheers 90th. 😕
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:11 am

Thanks. A Merry Christmas to you all. Re Monmouthshire - one of the advantages of being an historian is that emotional matters are excluded from the equation. One can simply state what WAS at certain point of history. You cannot judge what WAS then, by what IS now. As a matter of FACT Monmouthshire WAS administratively in England from 1536-1974. [Pascal - there were no boundary changes between those dates regarding Monmouthshire.] Also, although I don't wish to be controversial, and since you did bring up the matter of emotion, it was noticeable in the research that almost all of those born in Monmouthshire were of English or Irish parentage. Disregarding the situation in 2011, apart from a small Welsh-speaking district in the far north of the county the bulk of Monmouthshire had been settled historically from the east and south, with a focus on the Severn, by Englishmen. In the 1830s/40s they came largely from Bristol/Birmingham seeking work or, curiously, in the 1840s by Irishmen escaping the famines. Edward Savage's parents, for example, came from Cork, Evan Jones's from Limerick, Abraham Evans's from Wolverhampton, the list goes on (I can list these separately for you if you wish). It was also noticeable that in correspondence or in the press references to themselves or the army or their country were always to English, English army, and England, though such references are true in general throughout Wales in the 19th century. Consciousness of Welshness, Welsh identity, and Wales in the C19 was nowhere near as pronounced as now. Personally speaking, it would be nice if it were otherwise, but it is not found to be the case. I realise that this will not be popular with those of Welsh origin but I never allow political correctness to interfere with historical accuracy. Do the research, do the reading; you'll find it to be the case.
A final word, enlistment/attestation place is not a good indicator of origin! Wait for Kris Wheatley to finish her Magnum Opus! Then we'll know where they all came from.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:17 am

From Julian's list of unknowns

1/24th 1-24/1861Private William Horrigan – born Ireland c. 1850
2/24th 25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley - co. Cork Ireland
2/24th 25B/971 Private Thomas Driscoll - Dowlais Wales
2/24th 25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison - Armagh Ireland
2/24th 25B/1281 Private William John Todd - Liverpool
2/24th 2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan – Plymouth, Devon ? (census) e Limerick, Ireland

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:23 am

Excellent - where did you get info from - a search of censuses?
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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879    Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:43 am

Hi Julian

But Brittany is the same thing, many Britons believe because they were born in Brittany, it made me angry because it's not the way it works, you understand ...

The guys at Rorke's Drift British were simply ...

And it's just a British nationality, as French , a matter of paperwork...

And if a British soldier in the army of Chelmsford was born in France , there were, it would be French ?

This is the blood of ancestors who has to know about what you are ...

Now everything is mixed, which is what we do know that rarely ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal

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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:54 am

I agree. It's not a perfect world. In the end it's what you feel inside. And we can't know what the men of 1879 felt inside.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:35 am

Julian
I would suggest the last thing the brave men of isandlwana felt inside was an iklwa.


Regards
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PostSubject: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879    Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:20 pm


Hi Julian

All these questions of Welsh or English, it's just chauvinism ...

But as long as there is, are you sure there was no one who was Cornish, also a very specific region of Great Britain ...

Also I read that some British committed in the british imperial troops under a false name, so both there may be as non-British imperial troops in Chelmsford british imperial troops , provided they speak very good English ...

Cheers

Pascal














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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:42 pm

Julian stated:

"apart from a small Welsh-speaking district in the far north of the county the bulk of Monmouthshire had been settled historically from the east and south, with a focus on the Severn, by Englishmen. In the 1830s/40s they came largely from Bristol/Birmingham seeking work or, curiously, in the 1840s by Irishmen escaping the famines"

My Welsh ancestral line possesses a ridiculously Scottish surname. In 1861, my Gt Grandfather was the ONLY person with this surname in Carmarthenshire. On tracing back further, I found that my 3x gt grandfather migrated to Wales in the late 1840s from county Durham in England to work as a miner. Before him, his father was a mariner from Easington, Durham who served on HMS Collossus during the battle of Trafalgar. Needless to say I am proud of my Welsh ancestry - who were English befpre that! No doubt when I get round to tracing back this line of my family further, I will find Scottish roots in there as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:23 pm

Sherman

Re your posting concerning:
“2/24th 25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley - co. Cork Ireland
2/24th 25B/971 Private Thomas Driscoll - Dowlais Wales
2/24th 25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison - Armagh Ireland
2/24th 25B/1281 Private William John Todd - Liverpool
2/24th 2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan – Plymouth, Devon ? (census) e Limerick, Ireland”

You have not got back to me over the six men you posted details about. I really wanted to be able to confirm the details of your posting. As I said, I haven’t really been too bothered in the past about the genealogical details of the men and so haven’t gone out of my way to record any information about them. However, doing some digging on these six I find that I can confirm the following:
1/24th 1-24/1861 Private William Horrigan – enlisted Cork, Co. Cork, Ireland c. 1850 (letter
in the Oldham Weekly Chronicle)
2/24th 25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley – born Ireland (letter to the Natal Witness saying
he had an Irish accent)
2/24th 25B/971 Private Thomas Driscoll born 1852 in Dowlais, Glamorganshire, Wales (from
his birth certificate and reports in the South Wales Argus)

As for these three I have nothing yet re confirming their origins and would be really grateful to know your sources:
2/24th 25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison - Armagh Ireland
2/24th 25B/1281 Private William John Todd - Liverpool
2/24th 2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan – Plymouth, Devon ? (census) e Limerick, Ireland

One last thing – when I posted my list on the website I put one man down as an either English or Irish. That was Drummer Galgey – either from Co. Cork or Lancashire. He enlisted aged 14 in Cork and Galgey is an Irish surname from Co. Waterford but in mid-December I was contacted by his relatives who told me he had been born in Lancashire before his family moved to Ireland whilst he was a boy. I’m waiting for the arrival of more details and ‘proof’ from them and will post info as soon as it becomes available.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:34 pm

The difficulty here Julian, is how does one assign Dmr Galgey a nationality? Will he be English if born in Lancs, or Irish by bloodline? Or dual?
It is like the Monmouthshire boys of the 24th. Were they English, given that Monmouthshire was under English administarion during the time of their attestation as you suggest, or Welsh, as Norman Holme suggests, due to Monmouthshire quite clearly being culturally and geographically Welsh?

As I asked in a previous post, a person born on Jersey or any of the Channel Islands in 1944. German or a Channel islander?
Will George Best be remembered as a great Irish footballer, or a great British player?
After starting this thread, I have come to believe more and more that it doesn't matter! They can be either, it depends on your view point.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:34 am

Tasker, I agree. I am not assigning anyone a nationality. I'm trying to help those who asked where the defenders were born. I have done it by county as per Norman Holme.
As for nationality, it is always clear depending on the administration at the time. The Channel Islands in 1944 were never 'part' of Germany; no law was passed, no treaty laid down, by which sovereignty was transferred. They were simply occupied territory under international law and births continued to be recorded as British. Alsace-Lorraine (or Elsass-Lothringen) in 1871 was a different kettle of fish. In that case, sovereignty WAS transferred and births after that date were recorded as German citizens. At the time, the adult population was given a free choice as to whether to remain French or to adopt German nationality.
And, I quite agree, it doesn't matter.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:41 pm


Happy New Year 2012 to all and to all yours, and especially a very good health.

Good one special question.

How was it for soldiers from british Cornwall at R D ?

Because the Cornish men are not Welshmen.

Cheers

Pascal














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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:06 pm

Quote :
How was it for soldiers from british Cornwall at R D ?

Because the Cornish men are not Welshmen.

This is just going around in circles. First it was,was it a British Regiment or Welsh. Now it's Cornish. I don't mind if Pascals the top poster every month, but the topics should have some value to enhance a discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:12 pm

It is to please the Cornish who come to this forum :lol!:

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:16 pm

As for the discussions, it takes something for everyone :lol!:
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:46 pm

Pascal, you should not assign 21st-century ideas and concepts to 19th-century situations. Cornishness is a relatively recent phenomenon - literally having emerged over the last 25 years - and, in its ardent form, is still not taken seriously by the Cornish.
The question of geographical origin of the RD defenders is useful in viewing the make-up of a British regiment in the 19th century. Using the information to make a political point is really rather departing from the script.
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:29 pm

Good answer Julian. Makes sense. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:23 am

Hi Julian &John

What I find unfortunate is the fact of giving regiments, names of particular regions, so that even in kilted Scottish regiments, there were soldiers who were neither Scottish Highlanders and even less .. .

I would have loved me all the regiments are ethnic ...

This would have a competition against each other ... for they are unleashed in combat.

In fact they were British ONLY ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: The Welsh Soldiers and others at Rorke's Drift 1879   Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:18 am

You mean, like the French Foreign Legion? Sorry, Pascal, English (not Welsh) sense of humour!
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