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The missing five hours.

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 The missing five hours.

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
littlehand wrote:
On the other hand, if 30,000 plus Zulus were able to get passed the British, 8 would have no problem.

When did 30,000 Zulus get past the British without ebing seen ?



Cheers

They stealthily outflanked the 3rd column DB14, in the days before iSandlwana, positioning themselves without being noticed - until it was too late.
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90th

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PostSubject: THe missing five hours    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:35 am

Hi All .
I sort of agree with DB , I doubt 8 natives waving a white flag would be noticed by many people ! , also the majority of those who possibly saw them were killed on the 22nd !. The white flag was more than likely a piece of rag at best ! , wouldnt be like a huge flapping banner type of flag ! .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:56 am

As Ive posted, with the camp being overlooked the way it was, sending spies into the camp would be pointless, 1 man sitting on the ridge could have learned everything about the strength etc within minutes,
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:18 am

If that was the case why would the natives had been sent into the camp under a white flag. What did they hope to achieve but entering a camp they were going to attack anyway. Brickhill had already mentioned in the first part of his statement between 6-7 a large force had been seen and the men were told to prepair for action, so they all had a quick breakfast and companies were drawn up a remain there until 12:30.

He states the natives came in between 8-9am from the south, and Brickhill himself took them to see Durnford. Problem here Durnford wasn't in the camp at that point. With reards to the South of the camp, perhaps some would know what Britidh compaines were located facing that direction.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:54 am

CTSG
Interesting points.

Chelmsford had been negotiating with Gamdana to hand over his weapons he had ridden to the village on the 21st
They would have come from the South/South East from Gamdanas village, possibly crossing into the camp area at or round about the 1/24th tent line.
If they were in deed Gamdanas men in coming from the south they would not have heard or seen the main impi, they aproached from the East over the Magogo range to the rear of iSiphezi. And again if they werent part of the impi they wouldnt be thinking of the attack. Brickhill was happy to trust them as they had been in the camp the prievious day talking to Chelmsford.
The weird part as you point out is Brickhill saying he took the zulus to see Durnford when Durnford wasnt there.

That then leaps back to your first post that Durnford allowed Zulu spies into the camp.
a) He wasnt there.
b) It was Chelmsford the prievious day that allowed them in.

Regards
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:23 pm

Didn't Pulliene send a message to Chelmsford at 08:05am or is that the message that was disputed in another thread.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:28 pm

Thats the right one Dave

Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:30 pm

Quite a lot going on between 8-9. As anyone come across any other source that mentions these 8 Zulus with a white flag and 11 weapons. scratch
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:32 pm

I have a feeling that there is one other mention, but not in that detail. Ill check

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing 5 hrs    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:40 pm

Hi Ctsg / Springbok
Its mentioned in a few books but not sure of the detail in which they go into , and unfortunately about to hit the sack ! .
Hopefully Springbok will have them in his library . You need to study mo You need to study mo .
Cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:42 pm

90th
Its quoted by ian Knight and Grieves, but thats secondary. There is another source document.

Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:45 pm

But are they referring to " Brickhills Account" or other.
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing 5 hrs    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:48 pm

Hi Ctsg.
Good point , I was wondering if that may have been the case , I'll look through Sonia Clarke's books tomorrow one of the
Officers on the staff may have mentioned it .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:56 pm

Thats the thing, theres lots of quotations and references to it. I just have a gut feeling there is another source apart from Brickhill.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:57 pm

Virtually all the current authors quote Brickhill as the source.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:01 pm

Perhaps Brickhill saw 8 natives laying up a table ready for Durnfords arrival so he and Pulliene could have thier Breakfast.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Perhaps Brickhill saw 8 natives laying up a table ready for Durnfords arrival so he and Pulliene could have thier Breakfast.

:lol: This is more like it!

In any case, Brickhill mentions in his statement that these natives would not have gained any intelligence from their little nosey around the camp, so isn't this a rather trivial and insignifcant event?
They would not have popped up on anyone's radar, any more than that person who walked past you today on your way out of the office, or the office cleaners mopping the floor. In any large military camp today, in Afghanistan for example, one can see people of any nationality, locals who may well be Taliban spies. They are basically invisible because their presence is utterly nsignificant, because there is nothing useful that they could spy, see, hear or possibly gain from being there - other than a little profit from the crap they sell. They would gain more intelligence by listening to the BBC news.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:46 pm

Don't understand the logic. The camp is ready for action, Everyone in position all eyes looking for the enermy. Yet 8 Zulus carrying a white flag is only mentioned by one of the survivors. It has been mentioned that the Zulus may have heard a lot of activity in the early hours when Chelmsford left to assist Dartnell, it was also stated that the visibility would have been next to nothing. The fact that these Zulus were told the General was not there would have been enough for them to put 2 & 2 together to realise the decoy had work. The Zulus had being moving into attack positions while these Zulus went to the camp. The wave of an arm, the flick of a hat, the Zulu could now attack.
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing five hours    Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:34 pm

Hi John .
In your previous post you state '' The camp is ready for action '' well we know that wasnt the case ! . There were many people in the camp lounging around in their tents doing nothing ! . The only people that were on alert were the actual men of the 24th lined up in their companies , there were 100's doing nothing , just idling around for the order to move camp . So it was hardly in a state of high alert as you may believe . Isandlwana camp was a huge place , you would take no notice of 8 Natives walking around the back of the camp , as that is the way I think they were taken along to the headquarters tent or something similar .
The '' White Flag '' which was most likely the size of a hankerchief or something similar would have created no interest whatsoever .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:57 pm

90th Read Brickshill's account between 6am-7am
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:59 pm

Quote :
The '' White Flag '' which was most likely the size of a hankerchief or something similar would have created no interest whatsoever

How would you know this.
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing five hours    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:21 am

Hi Impi .
Times are tough in zululand , just cant knick down the main street and get a yard of cloth ! . Think about it ,there wasnt much to be had by the average zulu pre war 1879 !. They would have been lucky to have two sticks to rub together let alone a sizable '' White Flag '' .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:32 am

Cow hide comes to mind'
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing five hours    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:41 am

Hi Oh2 .
'' Cow hide comes to mind '' true , but cowhide is like gold ! and white cow hide would be like hens teeth ! , white cattle was
Ceteswayo's or the chiefs cattle , hardly think the average joe blow zulu would have owned any . Happy to be corrected .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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90th

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PostSubject: The missing five hours    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:48 am

Hi Impi.
I 've read Brickhill's account , all hands being basically the 24th Regt and the cooks of the 1 / 24th according to brickhill
but there were still many many others not on the front lines . Read some accounts of the battle and you will understand what I'm attempting to say , there are reports of zulus when entering the rear of the camp and getting into the tented area killing many as they came out of the tents . So I dont think this justifies being on a high alert .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:09 am

The 24th Coys, The NNC Coys, The artilery, and the mounted men were all in action on the line, those
who were in the tent were most likely waggon drivers and civilians.

Remember Pulleine had all the men who could hold a rifle to march out of the camp onto the line.




Cheers
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:11 am

87 whites survived Isandlwana, not many of them would have been at the HQ tent to see the Zulus come in and
surender, as most of them were colonials, civilains, NNC officers, artilery, they would have no business at the HQ
tent.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:25 pm

How did they get to the HQ tent.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:41 pm

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impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:43 pm

I personally don't think this happen.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:55 pm

scratch

That makes no sence ? what do you meen ?

Brickhill says it do, so why would he lie ? ............
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:04 pm

For some strange reason reports that have emanated from isandlwana are viewed with distrust and discarded in a pretty cavalier fashion.
Why?
Why would insignificant details be lies?
What had Brickhill to gain by embellishing?

Impi
You are fully entitled to your opinion and I do respect that but please share with us the rational behind your rejection of a rather honest mans ( remember he had the guts to tell the story of abandoning Gamble ) recolections.
Why would he lie?
On what basis have you made your decision?

I look forward to debating your reasoning.
Your question, how did they get to the HQ tent, the statement is very clear that they were taken there. In terms of how, "aroun d the back of the tents", its all in the statement,

The white flag.

Possibly this is metaphorical. The phrase has common use as a term of surrender or in this case showing friendship or lack of intent. So just maybe there was no piece of cloth, just a Zulu supplication of the two hands touching the forhead.
Remember for a great many of the zulu oportunities to see a white man, let only be able to understand the principle of a white flag, where extremely limited.

Regards
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:12 pm

Quote :
What had Brickhill to gain by embellishing?
Honour!! A big think back in the Victorian army.

Quote :
On what basis have you made your decision?

I know this question is for " Impi" but for me it would be the fact as pointed out by CTSG. Durnford wasn't at Isandlwana at the times mentioned by Brickhill.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:36 pm

Quite right Dave, as Julian pointed out.

"
Quote :
If one quotes from a document it is important to get it right -."
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:03 pm

Where did Brickhill go after escaping from Isandlwana.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:20 pm

Hi Dave
What honor was at stake from a minor story about zulus handing in weapons. What did Brickhill have to gain. His honor was already tarnished with the Gamble story, that he alone recounted. For honor he could have kept quiet about it, he didnt.
The fact that he maintains that he spoke to Durnford could be explained that his time frame was wrong, that the Zulus arrived after 8 oclock. Its a possiblity.
My main point is that statements are being analysed and being dismissed as lies for no good reason at all.
The conspiracy theory is out of hand when every thing being discussed is thought to be untrue, and I do mean everything.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:35 pm

Quote :
that his time frame was wrong

Here we go again, it's always the time frame is wrong, when something doesn't fit in with everything else. :sleep: :lol:
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:59 pm

A lot of people on here seem to make up there mind about some small detail, then fight tooth and nail to reject every piece of evidence that doesn't fit in with their preconceived opinion.
Try reading each other's posts and try to be open minded.

The obvious truth is roughly half a dozen or more Natives did show up to turn in some old guns (as Brickhill states) no reason to doubt him.
No other escaper mentions it because it was such a trfilingly minor detail that they would not have registered it at the time, recalled it, or thought it worth bothering to mention.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:48 am

How any times do members post something, only to be told is not from a " Primary source.

We have in-front of us a statement from Brickhill, who states he took the Zulus to Col: Durnford. When infact Durnford wasn't in the camp at the times specified by Brickhill.

So what gives anyone the right, to say then Brickihill made a mistake with his timings. If we were to treat every piece of primary source evidence in this manner, well we could have a whole new Battle of Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:42 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
How any times do members post something, only to be told is not from a " Primary source.

We have in-front of us a statement from Brickhill, who states he took the Zulus to Col: Durnford. When infact Durnford wasn't in the camp at the times specified by Brickhill.

So what gives anyone the right, to say then Brickihill made a mistake with his timings. If we were to treat every piece of primary source evidence in this manner, well we could have a whole new Battle of Isandlwana.

I have the right, as do you to question my posts.

Without that right to question this and every other forum dedicated to the principles of debate may as well close down.

There are numerous examples of timing differentials riddled through the survivors accounts so it is allways a possibility. But why call him a liar, or infer so, and attempt to discredit his statement, is there some form of motive there that isnt readily apparent?

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:05 pm

Brickhill is more then an hour behind in his timings, so when he says the natives came in at 9am, they came in at around
10am, at 10 Durnford was in the camp.

He says the troops remained formed up till 12, but they were in fact dismissed around 11, when raw and roberts
left the camp.




Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:17 pm

We keep hearing how professional these soldiers were, Do you not think the matter of keeping the right time would have become second nature.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:24 pm

LH

Brickhill was a civilian
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Brickhill is more then an hour behind in his timings, so when he says the natives came in at 9am, they came in at around
10am, at 10 Durnford was in the camp.

He says the troops remained formed up till 12, but they were in fact dismissed around 11, when raw and roberts
left the camp.




Cheers

If Brickhill is the only one that mentions the 8 natives coming in at 9am, why do you doubt him and assume he had the wrong time?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:27 pm

Because that's the way to make the account fit around the arrival of Durnford, but it shows there is some doubt
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:31 pm

Because he says the troops were dismissed at 12, but they were dismissed at 11.

He has his time wrong by an hour on that point, makes sence he's an hour behind on the other one.

How can anyone realy dout that 8 Zulus came in and surrendered ?

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:13 pm

This is what we are saying, you can't suggest Brickhill watch is wrong, you can't make an excuse to put his account right. As far as I'm concerned his account should be dismissed unless someone can come up with a resolution. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:16 pm

LH

I have proved his watch was slow.

Why would he make up that 8 zulus came in and surendered ? Come up with an answer to that and it make
make sence.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:21 pm

You haven't proved anything, you have only gave your opinion of what happen.

And the fact that the Zulus coming in are only mentioned by him makes it hard to believe.
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:23 pm

He says the troops remained formed up till 12, but they were dismissed at around 11.

That simple.
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The missing five hours.
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