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 Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?

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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyThu Dec 22, 2011 9:04 pm

Hi all, ADMIN in particular

I have a photograph from killie campbell, a low resolution close up of a burial party with picks at Isandlwana.
I have not seen this picture published previously, it is entitled 'burial party isandlwana' and I have noticed what seems to be the remains of a dead soldier (light shirt/dark trousers, against small rocks) at the feet of the man on the right.
It mentions nothing of the presence of a corpse and my eyes may be decieving me but I think not.

I have asked KC for a higher resolution copy and permission to publish it in full when it comes and they have said that my request has been passed to the department which deals with such things and I can expect a reply mid january 2012.


The KC site says images can be used for study and research purposes so long as the proper URL etc are attached and without further permissions and as this is a research/study site I presume it is safe to post the smaller image here prior to permission granted for the higher resolution image.
ADMIN, if the photo is as I see it, it is obviously of a morbid though not grotesque nature and so I thought it best to ask your permission first.
If you permit, I'll post the openly available image now and when clearance comes through from KC, I'll post the Higher resolution one.

Cheers

Matt

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7260
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 10:07 am

Hi Matt
AS far as im aware there were only three photos taken at isandlwana by Frederick Lloyd in May 1879. One is of a single soldier leaning on a shovel in the waggon park. The second and third are more long distance looking over the neck, one of which shows cavalry in the middle distance.

regards
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barry

barry

Posts : 911
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Photo of burial party at Isandhlwana   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 12:10 pm


Hi Matthew83,

I would be very happy for you to publish the Isandlwana burial party picture/s which you obtained from KCM.
Publishing the picture/s should not upset any sensitivities as I do not think it will be possible for anyone to be identified in it.
According to my records it took some time weeks, even months before any interments took place on the battlefields. In this regard the Natal Mounted Police where there first, doing what's right for their men who died there, but they were expressly forbidden from burying any of the 24th's kia's, as the Regiment wanted to do it themselves.
This may have been because they needed to positively identify as many men as they could before burial.

barry.


Last edited by barry on Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 6:57 pm

Springbok and Barry, I have sent you the image via pm, will hold off from posting it openly until Admin clears it.

Cheers

Matt
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ciscokid



Posts : 187
Join date : 2010-02-04

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:13 pm

matthew83 wrote:
Springbok and Barry, I have sent you the image via pm, will hold off from posting it openly until Admin clears it.

Cheers

Matt

Matt

Any chance I could grab a copy too please?

cheers
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:15 pm

sent cisco

Cheers

Matt
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ciscokid



Posts : 187
Join date : 2010-02-04

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:24 pm

Thank you very much - much appreciated Idea
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:30 pm

Cisco,

What do you reckon, It is in my opinion unmistakable, I'm surprised it hasn't been more widely published.


Cheers

Matt
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1987
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 22

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:32 pm

Could i get a copy??

😕 😕


Cheers
DB14
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:34 pm

DB14.


Sent

Cheers

Matt
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1987
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 22

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:39 pm

I can see a body but it looks like a shield is behind him??

Also the body looks tiny, could be a drummer boy Shocked


Cheers
DB14
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 7:42 pm

Hi DB14,

Yes, I too noticed the shield, a white one.
He is small, could be a drummer boy but likely a normal ranker whose remains have decomposed somewhat over the months that passed before the burial parties arrived, thereby making him appear smaller.

Who knows?

Cheers

Matt
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barry

barry

Posts : 911
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Picture of Isandlwana burial party   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 8:02 pm


Hi Matthew83

Thanks for pm giving web link to picture of burial party. It appears to be of unusual clarity for the time and I think many in this forum will have interest in it.


regards,


barry
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Isandula

Isandula

Posts : 263
Join date : 2010-08-13

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Hi Matt, Anyway you could send me the image via pm. Thanks in advance. Isandula
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3881
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 60
Location : KENT

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 9:33 pm

Matt post away. Idea
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 9:44 pm

Cheers Admin,


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]





The image is stored at the killie campbell collection and is numbered c58-034.
It can be accessed by members of the KC website at.....

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

As per their instructions, it may only be shared as is, provided the direct url is posted.
I'll post a clearer and larger pic when I have it cleared by the KC staff.


Cheers

Matt
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Tim Needham

Tim Needham

Posts : 205
Join date : 2011-10-18

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 9:54 pm

This photo appears in Ian Knight's book 'Nothing Remains But to Fight' & the opinion of the author is that it was probably taken at Pinetown at the end of the war.

Regards,

Tim
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John

John

Posts : 2557
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 10:06 pm

Perhaps a show photo. Glad to see there is no signs of the Zulu custom of disembowelling.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2880
Join date : 2010-06-02

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 10:59 pm

The picture in Ian Knight's book quite clearly shows that the two "bodies" are Zulus, each with a convenient spear tucked under the arm ! Certainly a staged photograph.

Steve
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1987
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 22

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyFri Dec 23, 2011 11:05 pm

I think it was RD the day after in Knights photo



Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7260
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Age : 72
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:34 am

Matt
Ive replied privatly.

Regards
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Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 703
Join date : 2012-05-05

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PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 6:54 pm

Can't see why a burial party would have a photo like this taken? Almost like a trophy photo!  Don\'t agree 
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Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 7:05 pm

if its of historical significance, then why not?
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Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 11:05 pm

will there be more information
re this!.
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ciroferrara

ciroferrara

Posts : 208
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Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 4:47 pm

i beleive this photo was aken in pine town at the end of the war and is a a trophy photo i.e. staged
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 1921
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 63
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post?   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 11:15 pm

It is clearly a staged photograph as already mentioned.

The so-called burial party is under the command of Captain Alfred Godwin-Austen, 2nd/24th, wearing the 1878 star helmet plate on his helmet.  Some other interesting uniform and equipment detail appears in the photograph: the Colour-Sergeant's insignia on the soldier 4th from the left; the helmet covers worn by two officers and at least one other-rank; the Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry wearing a pistol and sword and the kneeling other-rank wearing the older pattern ammunition pouch with curved edge.

For the best printed version of the photograph see page 110 of Nothing Remains But to Fight.

Given that Alfred's clasp for 1879 was disallowed it is obvious that it taken nowhere near any fighting.

John Y.
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barry

barry

Posts : 911
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Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Burial party   Photo of burial party and soldier's remains at Isandlwana, can I post? EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 4:15 am

Hi All,
What bothers me about this midday shot of a supposed Isandlwana burial is;

1) the shot  was taken in late summer time
2) the terrain shown in the background is not that of the general Isandlwana area, however it could be down the trail.
3) the luxuriant flora  depicted in general in the background, but more particularly, and the big give away,  the presence there of  the "Natal banana"or strelitzia nicolai (Crane flower), a tree which is NOT found at the higher altitudes ( ie above 3000 feet), or in the Thornveld., but is endemic  in the lower altitude riverine and coastal dune forests throughout the region. No Thornveld acacia are visible in the background either.

So, based on all of the above Isandlwana does not appear to be the place where this shot was taken and it is probably a staged photo .

regards

barry

PS : Strelitzia nicolai is indeed very common around Pinetown
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