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 I'm Sure someone will know.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:02 pm

I know this photo is already on the forum somewhere. But I would like to know if anyone could work what the insignia is on his Pith Helmet. (Well I think it’s a Pith Helmet)

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:04 pm

I can only say that I am 99.9% sure it isn't a British regiment...the shape of the badge is totally unfamiliar and untypical of British regiments. (No lions/creatures, crowns, swords, rifles or wreaths etc).
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:30 pm

Have to agree with Tasker.
Could it be a colonial regiment.
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barry

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PostSubject: Mehlogazulu   Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:47 pm

Hi Littlehand,

The fellows pictured are guarding Mehlogazulu who was a son of Sirayo.
Mehlogazulu was one of the commanders of the force that attacked Isandlwana on 22/01/1879.
Now Fynn's Police were used to do the lower level policing duties in Zululand, they brought in Zabanga to be interviewed by the Ex Empress of the French and the Zulu who made the statement to Gen Sir Evelyn Wood at Isandhlwana in June 1880 about Col Durnford's demise.
The badge looks like it may end in a "P" but I just cannot make the left hand side of it out. Have you tried taking a digital macro of the badge and then enlarging it. ?

regards


barry

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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:03 pm

Barry could it be a war trophy of his, from ones of the battles. It certainly looks like its been through the mill.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:10 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
Barry could it be a war trophy of his, from ones of the battles. It certainly looks like its been through the mill.

Hi

Well the Zulus didn't where helmets so no it couldn't be.


Cheers
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:41 pm

Trophies of war. Taken from a dead soldier or found on the Battlefield. I know they didn't wear helmets. But then they didnt wear red tunics until after the battle of Isandlwana. If you get my meaning. Idea
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:02 pm

Hi Chard1879.
It's hardly a trophy of war as the chap with the helmet is GUARDING Mehlokazulu !. So it's much more likely he's a member of the Colonial Forces and was issued the Helmet . The narration does mention this . I also wouldnt imagine for one moment if he was with
Mehlokazulu he would be allowed to wear a trophy of war either !.
cheers 90th. Idea
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:19 pm

You don't know that. None of the other guards have helmets. He could have quite easily have found it. Of course they could have been issued 1 Helmet between 4 Men. A bit like 1 MH between 10 Men.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:27 pm

And the guard on the right is a SGT. Going by his stripes. Did the British issued with great coats.
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:40 pm

Hi Impi.
I think you mean the guard on the left , he appears to have stripes . Maybe it was a cold day ! . :lol!: . I'm certain that some of the
Native forces were issued blankets and coats , some were even issued obsolete tunics I think Wood was instrumental in this happening . This is after the zulu war so more than likely they were given some cast off pieces of uniform etc ,etc . That is in regard
to the jackets / Tunics or Greatcoat being referred to . Also the guards probably arent your run of the mill NNC , to be decked out in that gear they may be the NNC version of Sgt or NCO , possibly even higher referring to the chap in the Helmet , the truth is we will never know for sure . So draw your own conclusions as I've done mine . Idea
cheers 90th. Idea
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:03 am

It would be on the left down-under. Up here its on the right
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: I'm Sure someone will know   Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:21 am

Hi 90th

I think you may be right about obsolete items, cast off items etc. I have got the book you mentioned, 'Zulu War - Volunteers, Irregulars & Auxiliaries, and on page 44 it shows a badge of the Natal Carbineers. It looks very similar to the one the chap is wearing in the picture, accept that on the chap in the picture, the crown is missing and so is the curl at the start of the letter 'N', but the 'C' is a good match for the one shown in the picture, if you have the book, take a look and you will see what I mean, so could it be that the chap is wearing a cast off helmet with a broken badge? scratch :lol!:

Regards, Martin. Idea
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:53 am

Hi Martin.
It could be a damaged or Broken N.C. Badge . I've looked through my Colin Owen book and badge number 512 , Natal Mtd Police
Helmet Badge , Brass , worn prior to 1894 certainly also looks like it .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:15 am

I have a Victorian Natal Carbineers helmet badge (No. 354 in Owen's book) and, if anyone wants to see a pic, I will ask Admin to post it, perhaps under the 'Colonial Regiment Insignia' thread that has been proposed by Mr Cooper.

Brett
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barry

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PostSubject: Modified NMP badge   Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:24 am



Hi Brett,

I was hoping that you would come in on this one.Please post a picture of the badge.
However 90th suggesting a modified NMP badge jogged my memory as I then recollected that I had actually seen one somewhere like that in the past.
To further comment on the uniform of the three Zulu guards, It looks very rag-tag and not even to the standard of the Zulu irregulars on the British side in the AZW. So Chard's suggestion of war capture seems to gel, and make no mistake many Zulu's joined a battle even only to see what was for the taking. Interest being particularly in firearms/ ammunition followed by boots , trousers and jackets, in that order.
The next question is then; were they Mehlogazulu's personal body guards or were they guarding him for the British after his capture?. For those who have Holt's, he refers to Mehlogazulu ( pages 57, 60) who also gave a statement about Durnfords last stand by the way. He made this after his capture and whilst in prison. This British capture might tie up with littlehands picture.
The two rifles shown appear to be percussion/blackpowder and ball weapons of unknown vintage . Neil Aspinshaw could possibly identify these.

regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:51 am

Hi Guys
There is a slightly different version of that photo in Zulu Rising. Same people but standing up. Also in TWOTS there is a slightly clearer version of the same photo.
May help

Regards
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:40 pm

Chard1879 wrote:
Trophies of war. Taken from a dead soldier or found on the Battlefield. I know they didn't wear helmets. But then they didnt wear red tunics until after the battle of Isandlwana. If you get my meaning. Idea

Hi

They are gaurding him, they are not Zulu's so they couldn't have got them in that way.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:20 pm

Hi Chard .
'' You dont know that '' scratch scratch Know what ????. Read the Caption , it clearly states Mehlokazulu is under GUARD
of other Africans . So therefore they MUST be part of the Colonial Forces . The Colonial units wouldnt be able to wear insignia which
belonged to a different unit . Clothing is a different story . Cast off's were quite often used . Idea .
cheers 90th. :lol:
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:29 pm

Quote :
So it's much more likely he's a member of the Colonial Forces and was issued the Helmet

They wasn't issued with Helmets. I am willing stand corrected if someone could post another photo of colonial native wearing a helmet issued by the Brits.
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barry

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PostSubject: Pic of mehlogozulu   Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:16 pm

Hi ittlehand.

This pic has certainly raised a lot of interest.
I have had another look and speculatively comment further as follows ;.
In this winter time shot Mehlogazulu actually has the "bracelets" on, one side being unfastened. It can be seen hanging below his left wrist, which is fastened.
The fellow on the right of him with the assegais is showing the whites of his eyes , much trepidation is thus evident. The other side of thee bracelet would be attached to his left wrist so that their capture could not escape en route to interrogation and gaol.
The man on the left is wearing a military issue greatcoat. The two rifles carried, one with external hammer , are single shot powder/ball and flint weapons of different make and ancient vintage.
As commented on in the forum, the uniforms are not uniform at all, so I would speculate that this picture is
of pro British Zulu militia members who had arrested Mehlogazulu at his kraal, and their gear was probably sourced from different places and events.
The pith helmet worn by the one man does not look like standard NMP issue, theirs was white but probably made so with "whiting" ,or covered with a white sleeve. The NMP badge was of course worn on the left side of the helmit, not the front.
Someone on the forum questioned whether the Zulu units wore hats, helmets specifically ?. The Zulu NMP policeman wore a soft hat, the Nonqai the pillbox, probably those spare when the force changed their headgear.

regards,

barry


Last edited by barry on Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:29 pm

The infantry and cavalry of the NSC reorganized after Isandhlwana, often wore old-fashioned piece of British uniform or equipment , particularly in terms of military headgear, so nothing extraordinary that this guy is a british colonial helmet ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:22 am

Opposite page 174 in Zulu Rising is a phot0 taken of a rather larger guard group including two white guards in uniform.
The caption very clearly states September 1879 under guard as a prisoner of war.

regards
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: I'm Sure someone will know   Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:43 pm

Hi all

Please see Admins posting of Bretts pictures of colonial badges', in the topic 'Colonial Regimental Insignia', If you look at the 'NC' one, you will see that it looks very similar to the badge on the helmet of the man in the picture if you remove the crown and the curly end of the 'N'.

Take a look and you will see what I mean.

Martin.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:26 pm

You could very well be right Martin. But would the Native sections have been issued with this insignia or was it just given to him for the sake of the photo shoot.
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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Littlehand. Can't you use your special photography software to in-hance the image. ⭐
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: I'm Sure someone will know   Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:37 pm

Hi LH

Yes, I think that you also could be right, it might well have been put on his head for the sake of the photo. Also the helmet might well have been a 'cast off' that was sporting a broken 'NC' badge.

Martin.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:32 pm

Is SirDCC still around he was the master of photos recreations and enhancements .
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:03 pm

Hi Chard1879.
I was actually searching the members list last night to find someone's last visit here and did notice that SirDCC hasnt logged on for
a long time !.
cheers 90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: I'm sure someone will know    Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:16 pm

Hi Chard1879.
I just had a look and SirDCC hasnt logged on since 7 / 1 / 11 Suspect . So over a year . :sleep: .
cheers 90th.
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:39 pm

barry wrote:
Hi ittlehand.

This pic has certainly raised a lot of interest.
I have had another look and speculatively comment further as follows ;.
In this winter time shot Mehlogazulu actually has the "bracelets" on, one side being unfastened. It can be seen hanging below his left wrist, which is fastened.
The fellow on the right of him with the assegais is showing the whites of his eyes , much trepidation is thus evident. The other side of thee bracelet would be attached to his left wrist so that their capture could not escape en route to interrogation and gaol.
The man on the left is wearing a military issue greatcoat. The two rifles carried, one with external hammer , are single shot powder/ball and flint weapons of different make and ancient vintage.
As commented on in the forum, the uniforms are not uniform at all, so I would speculate that this picture is
of pro British Zulu militia members who had arrested Mehlogazulu at his kraal, and their gear was probably sourced from different places and events.
The pith helmet worn by the one man does not look like standard NMP issue, theirs was white but probably made so with "whiting" ,or covered with a white sleeve. The NMP badge was of course worn on the left side of the helmit, not the front.
Someone on the forum questioned whether the Zulu units wore hats, helmets specifically ?. The Zulu NMP policeman wore a soft hat, the Nonqai the pillbox, probably those spare when the force changed their headgear.

regards,

barry

Even Sherlock Homles would be proud of this deduction!
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PostSubject: Re: I'm Sure someone will know.   Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:35 am

Quelle misère ... :sleep:
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