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Brev. Lt-Col. R.H. Buller, VC, Staff: 2/60th KRRC-Zungwini,Hlobane, Khambula, Ulundi
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impi

impi

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Horses killed at Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySat Feb 18, 2012 5:19 pm

Why did the Zulu's kill the horses at Isandlwana instead of putting them to good use. Surely they would have been more valuable alive than dead. Anyone know the answer, or was it because they were so high on narcotics they didn't care. Just seems a waste of good live stock.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySat Feb 18, 2012 5:26 pm

There is an account i think that says because

They were the feet of the white men
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySat Feb 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Correct DB14.

"All the horses were killed as well, but that at least had a military rationale, “because they were the feet of the white men.”
(Knight)
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 7:47 am

Hi all

Yes all of this is true, but in 1888 there will be a tiny cavalry Zulu ...

I also think that Hlobane, umCijo warriors have captured horses for use ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 10:15 am

It also appears they stabbed the tins of food, because it was the food of the white man. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptySun Feb 19, 2012 11:34 am

Yes the young warriors who had never seen white men, mistook them with the bags of grain with the help of the canabis ... They even drank all that was in the infirmary, there were cases of poisonings ...

Sacred zulus
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 7:32 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
There is an account i think that says because

They were the feet of the white men

Stands to reason.

(And I don't think phrases like "high on narcotics" are very helpful, as they show a lack of any understanding, whatsoever, of the culture and customs of the noble Zulu people).
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 8:12 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Do you think the Zulu's would have done what they done, if they hadn't been using narcotics.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:07 pm

Not for me to say. But i would guess, yes.

The Zulu pre battle rituals and drinking of herbal potions were an attempt to give the warriors courage before the fight. It was to do with spiritualism and magic to fortify the warriors for the dreadful risks and tasks that lay ahead in the noble cause of the defence of their lands from alien invaders.
This was their belief; they didn't know about organic molecules and pharmacology. I am sure that the word narcotic was not in existence in 1879.

Their post battle rituals, again, were to do with freeing the dead man's spirit, as per their beliefs if that is what you are referring to when you say "done what they had done." It was nothing to do with being crazed junkies as is being insinuated. It was in fact an act of respect.



Last edited by tasker224 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyMon Feb 20, 2012 9:50 pm

Whatever they took and for what ever reason. it put them into a zombie like state. I doubt they would have even known when they were killed.
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 7:03 am

Hi all
Drug use was not widespread with the zulus.

Caution! otherwise some will believe that the Zulu army was an army of drug addicts...

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyTue Feb 21, 2012 7:03 pm

The use of drugs, medicines and vaccinations is, and has long been part of making combatants more effective, relaxed or courageous.

Zulus warriors in 1879, American GIs in Vietnam on dope and UK squaddies on the same today in Afghanistan (allegedly), Bomber Command aircrew in WW2 were given the amphetamine commonly known as "speed" to keep them awake on long night time missions to Germany and back, Taliban fighters on heroin in the Afghan today.

What's new?
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyWed Feb 22, 2012 7:25 am

Hi Tasker

I meant that it was not Generalised.

Cheers

Pascal
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 7:01 am

Do we not have 'a cake and eat it scenario' here?

General thinking is that the zulu were going to attack on the 23rd, ergo any doctoring/issuing of cannabis (the drug of choice) would have taken place the morning of the 23rd, does that sound logical?
Therefore assuming that was the case then the zulu army was suprised and forced into attacking on the 22nd, without the benefits of the Sangomas or the cannabis.

Would it then be conjecture or sound fact to say that drugs werent used at isandlwana?

In terms of Khambula. The right horn arrives first, settles down and gets ready to have a quick smoke while the chest and left horn get into position.

But Buller decides to attack the right horn and precipitates the whole battle, the right horn doesnt get a chance to 'roll a spif', the chest and left horn are still on the move and I dont care what anyone says, running around the hills with a rather large shield spear and battle axe is not conducive to rolling a smoke, lighting it ( no Biks or matches there) and smoking it.

So in summary, there is a good case for denying drugs were ever used in those battles

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 7:10 am

Fully agree M'sieur...

The brave Zulus are not drug addicts ...

Drugs, it's just for ceremonial between battles ...

Cheers Salute

Pascal
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90th

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PostSubject: Horses Killed At Isandlwana   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 7:50 am

Hi All .
I tend to agree with Springbok , but do have an open mind to some use of narcotics within some of the impi at some stage possibly before the battles , certainly I doubt very much any was taken during a battle . No doubt there was much done post battle . Shocked Shocked .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 9:15 am

Hi Gary

Yes, but even before a battle that was not to be systematic, otherwise it is an army of junkies...

Cheer

Pascal
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 10:34 am

I think those who have doubts about the ability of these drugs and the effects it had on the person who took them, should watch the documentary by Ian Knight. (Secrets of the Dead) An interview with a witch doctors goes into great details about the drug known as red dust.

It's also well know that the Zulus carried with them small snuff containers, which would allow them to top up, if the heat came on in battle.

The Zulus had a great military system, brilliant tactics, good commarders, So why with all these skills would they waste the lives of the men, and by reading the many Zulu accounts they had a very good understanding of the capability of modern day European weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 10:43 am

Hi Impi

So all their defeats and their courage comes from their impétuositée which itself comes from the drugs ...? Sad

Cheers

Pascal
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 10:54 am

Charging against gun fire the first time would be enough to make any army hesitant the second time. The Zulu' s were not hesitant and I can't believe anyone could be that brave without being stupid or on something.
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 11:30 am

Monsieur

It is fanaticism, the two regiments most nationalists were also the most fanatical.

These two regiments were the iNgobamakhosi (which is the first to attack at Kambula, without permission of the army general ...) and the umCijo which does the same at Isandhlwana and which prevents the peace talks and triggered the battle of Ulundi ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 11:41 am

impi
Let me just correct possibly a false impression, isandlwana was not the first time the Zulu had charged mass guns.

Some comparable charges would be

Battle of the Thukela
Blood River
Ndondakusuka
Plus the odd brush with the Trek Boer.

They were certainly no strangers to bullet wounds.

When iShaka built the Zulu nation he built it on the principal of absolute obedience, non performance was death, instant. That culture was inculcated through until and beyond 1879.

A story connected to iShaka. He decided that in pursuing an enemy the impi were to slow and so ordered them to kick off their sandles. When this happened they were even slower for fear of hurting their feet. He scattered devil thorns, a really viscious bugger, onto the parade ground and had them stamp them into the ground with bare feet. Any one not stamping had their heads crushed by the executioner on the spot.

Thats why they would charge guns or impossible odds........ because they were told to.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 11:46 am

Yes it's true, but either way, the two cannons at Isandhlwana, this is a joke ...
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 11:55 am

The attack on Isandlwana was a total surprise to the British. They was not prepair for an attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 12:00 pm

it's also a surprise for the zulus...
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 12:04 pm

They had not anticipated the next battle before the 23, they were preparing their lunch on the grass and hop!
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 12:16 pm

I think between us we are taking this discussion off topic.
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 2:23 pm

Well spotted Impi. Salute
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 4:06 pm

Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyThu Feb 23, 2012 7:38 pm

OK, back on topic then and in answer to the original questions posed by impi.

The Zulus killed horses because they were good strategists: they were attempting to disrupt the alien invaders' transport system.
And No, they were not out of their minds - on the contrary - they knew exactly what they were doing. They were attempting to disrupt the alien invaders' transport system.

Look back up at the third post in this thread by Dave. His post answers the original the question, full stop.
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PostSubject: Re: Horses killed at Isandlwana.   Horses killed at Isandlwana. EmptyFri Feb 24, 2012 6:34 am

Hi all

Well anyway ...

Horses for war, it's not a tradition of the Bantu and Zulu are super rigid, no hope they use horses in this war , but they will do in 1888 ,also they kill them at Isandhlwana...



Impi, please see your pm ...

Cheers

Pascal
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