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Zulu.Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight

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Drummer Boy 14

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Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight Empty
PostSubject: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Where was Colonel Pulliene most likely to command the battle from at Isandlwana ???

Snook places him on the front line to the right of the guns behind H company, were he could see the whole fight.

Greaves puts him in the Head Quaters area, were people could find him.


Any ideas anyone ?


Cheers
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 8:11 pm

DB.
Pages 140 to 143 in the camp area.

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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 8:14 pm

Thanks admin Salute

But i ment were would he have been during the fight ?


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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 8:15 pm

I expect where he died. Salute
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Where was Colonel Pulliene most likely to command the battle from at Isandlwana ???

Snook places him on the front line to the right of the guns behind H company, were he could see the whole fight.

Greaves puts him in the Head Quaters area, were people could find him.


Any ideas anyone ?


Cheers

hI DB 14

If you have "Hill of the Sphinx" (FWD JACKSON)

See p. 41: "Quatermaster PULLEN..."

See P. 46 "the three companies of the 1/24th..."

See p. 46"During the retreat Captain NOURSE..."

Cheers

YMOB
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 8:51 pm

Hi Ymob

Thanks i've just checked, the fact Brickhill couldn't find him makes me think he must have been on the firing line.
Melvill was, which is also a good pointer.



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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 9:07 pm

The where abouts of Pulliene's body was not known until this eye witness account from Browne was found, in the book mentioned. But can we count on Brownes account.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 9:13 pm

His accountant fits with Coghill's description of Pulliene being shot dead.

If he had't died " Early " then surly he'd have been with the rest of the 1/24th on the Saddle ?


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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 9:54 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Hi Ymob

Thanks i've just checked, the fact Brickhill couldn't find him makes me think he must have been on the firing line.


Hi DB 14

i am agree with you...and F.W.D. JACKSON ! ("hill of the Sphinx")

For the others:

p.41 "He [PULLEN] asked the Interpreter [BRICKHILL] to get reinforcements from Col. PULLEINE. BRICKHILL went to look for PULLEINE at the 2/24th camp but could not find him. It is likely that he had gone forward to the firing line".

p.46 "the three companies of the 1/24th which had been in the line to the left of the guns seem to have fought over the whole length of the camp, losing men all the way. Pulleine may have been with them"

P.46 "During the retreat, Captain Nourse saw Col. PULLEINE with forty soldiers 800 yards in rear of the Nek, probably at the point where the fugitive's trail crossed the Manzimyama, at the mouth of a ravine and subsquently Inspector MANSEL (NMP) found these forty lying there with ine body that could have been PULLEINE".

reagrds

YMOB






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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyWed Mar 07, 2012 10:46 pm

No one knows where Pulliene's body was. It was never found. Admin I don't think we can take Brownes word for it. As far as i'm aware his account is the only one who states he saw "Pulliene's" body.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 5:33 am

THere were at least three sightings of his body, that doesnt prove where he was during the battle, only where he died.
DB14
Mike Snooks placed him where he thinks he should have been. No evidence at all to prove either way.

Personaly I believe he died retreating on the back of the saddle.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Colonel Pulleine's position during the battle    Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 5:35 am

Hi All.
Probably a waste of time due to the fact that we will never know . Pure conjecture and speculation . Suspect Suspect .
cheers 90th. Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 6:44 pm

DB14, if you do indeed put any credence on what Zulu witnesses/ primary accounts say - and most people and historians don't - then one position he was reported to be in was sat on his arsenal, at his desk, in his tent, writing a letter.

I don't find this report too incredible to be honest.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 6:46 pm

The warrior doesn't name Pulliene simply that it was an officer, it was make it up Morris who said it was Pulliene,
the same man who has Younghusband dying in a waggon.

Pulliene was shot , Coghill told a number of fugitives.



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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 6:54 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
The warrior doesn't name Pulliene simply that it was an officer, it was make it up Morris who said it was Pulliene,
the same man who has Younghusband dying in a waggon.

Pulliene was shot , Coghill told a number of fugitives.



Cheers

The warrior gave a good description of the officer in the tent, whom he shot. (No argument that Pulleine was shot).
Who else could the officer, shot by the Zulu warrior have been, would you like to suggest someone?
And don't write off Morris and everything he says, just because one or two things he wrote have latterly been disproven. That is how history, like any other subject works. He was but filling in unknown gaps rather like Mike Snook does, with intelligeny conjecture. The evidence to tell every part of the story does not exist, so sometimes to completethe story, it is valid to make the odd intelligent guess.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:08 pm

tasker224 wrote:

The warrior gave a good description of the officer in the tent, whom he shot. (No argument that Pulleine was shot).

The warrior stabbed the man to death, not shot.

It could have been any of these, their bodies were never found.

Major Francis White

Colonel Pulliene

Sub-Lieutenant Griffith

Captain Degacher

Lt. Patrick Daly

Lt. Chales Akinson


Can't see it being Pulliene, he was shot dead, reported by Coghill.


Cheers

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:17 pm

Coghill's story of Pulleine being shot is unreliable. Coghill fled the camp and was trying to justify his actions in fleeing.
Lt Griffith would certainly have been out in the field with his men of the 2/24th.
No one else would have had the authority to be sat in the tent. They would have been too junior in rank and their superior would have tasked them with a job to do.

You are quite correct that the warrior stabbed Pulleine, in the tent.
What other evidence exists that Pulleine was shot, aside from what Coghill is supposed to have said in 3rd hand reports?
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:26 pm

Curling

“Shortly after this I saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulliene had been killed.”

Private Brickly

“Lieut. Coghill afterwards joined us, and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulliene had been shot.”


He would have been focused on his own escape, not inventing reasons why he was doing so. The fact Pulliene was dead doesn't give him an exuse to leave.


Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:28 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Curling

“Shortly after this I saw Lieutenant Coghill, who told me Colonel Pulliene had been killed.”

Private Brickly

“Lieut. Coghill afterwards joined us, and reported to the Adjutant that Colonel Pulliene had been shot.”


He would have been focused on his own escape, not inventing reasons why he was doing so. The fact Pulliene was dead doesn't give him an exuse to leave.


Cheers

Thanks DB14.
Let us know if you find any reports independant of what Coghill is reported to have said 3rd hand. Salute Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:43 pm

Intrestingly Browne's drawing shows Pulliene's helmet next to his body with a bullet hole in it.

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 7:52 pm

Thanks DB14, you almost have me convinced, but you're going to have to do better than Maori Browne - a legendary and renowned story teller himself!!!
Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:32 pm

Tasker

How is Curling's report 3rd person ? scratch



Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:39 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Tasker

How is Curling's report 3rd person ? scratch



Cheers

Curling did not see Pulleine shot; Curling was told Pulleine was shot; by a man he recognised as Coghill, who was dead so could not substantiate Curling's report.

1. Pulleine does not tell us he was shot
2. Coghill does not tell us he was shot
3. Curling tells us he was shot
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:45 pm

So Lt. Curling and Priavte Brickly just happen to make it up ?


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:48 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
So Curling and Brickly just happen to make it up ?


Cheers

More likely that Coghill made it up. Why? Perhaps to justify his fleeing the battle instead of rallying his men.
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:52 pm

Tasker, thats not an excuse for leaving the field. As a mounted officer of the 24th Coghill would most likely have been serving as an monuted aid to Pulliene. He was seen dashing around the place on his horse.



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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 10:54 pm

You are probably correct. Maybe Coghill did see Pulleine's bloodied body, but that is not evidence that Pulleine had been shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 11:00 pm

tasker224 wrote:
You are probably correct. Maybe Coghill did see Pulleine's bloodied body, but that is not evidence that Pulleine had been shot.

Why would you dismiss Coghill's evidence, he had no reason to lie.

People like Higginson who did lie had good reasons.



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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 11:02 pm

Maybe Coghill didn't lie, perhaps he was mistaken.
I don't want to gross you out DB14, but if you were to see a deceased body with several puncture wounds, I would challenge you to determine if it had been shot with a small calibre weapon, or stabbed.
This would take a very experienced and highly qualified pathologist several hours to determine.
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 11:04 pm

By the time Coghill left the Zulus weren't in the camp, ergo Coghill couldn't have seen a stabbed body.


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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyThu Mar 08, 2012 11:14 pm

D14, you seem to have forgotten what we were debating! scratch
Go back and read through the thread! Salute

Coghill had to fight his way out of the camp, so the Zulus must have been in the camp.
Curling's report says Coghill saw Pulleine "killed", the other that he was "shot"
Either way, neither is evidence he had indeed, been shot, hence disproving the the claim of the Zulu warrior who had killed him with a spear.
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight   Colonel Pulliene's posistion during the fight EmptyFri Mar 09, 2012 6:42 am

Hi all

Fully agree with you Tasker.

Salute

Pascal
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