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 Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana

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tasker224

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PostSubject: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:18 pm

http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctions/rostrumauctions/auctioncatalogue/lotdetail.lasso?auction=Medals+28+Mar+12&id=1706&lot=123

An incredibly rare opprtunity for those with deep pockets.
One of only 26 from this unit, killed in the battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi tasker224,
I am not a medal collector but for something so rare it seems a good price to me, will you post the final hammer price?
cheers
Richie
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:43 pm

Somebody will Richie, no doubt.
The price is only an estimate remember, and these are generally low.
Only 90th has pockets this deep and in his opinion, the winning bidder will most likely be shelling out a 5 figure sum; and he should know!
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PostSubject: Tprt.F. Secretan NMP    Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:11 pm

Hi Tasker .
:lol: :lol: , I wish my friend ! , I wish ............ Shocked Shocked

Richie .
I'll be very much surprised if it hammer's at less than 10 ,000 Big ones ! . :evil: :evil:
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:04 pm

I have photos of the Natal Police memorial which references Secretan if any one would be interested in them.
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90th

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PostSubject: Trpr. F. Secretan , NMP , KIA , Isandlwana    Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Hi SergioD.
I'm certainly interested in them . Salute
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Hi 90th
What a Newbie scratch - I have just read the FAQ on posting photos and realise I have no way of posting them on this forum as they are personal photos taken on a visit to SA and are not on a website (if there is some way round this can any member please let me know).

Cheers

Sergio

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90th

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PostSubject: Trpr. F. Secretan , NMP , KIA , Isandlwana    Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:08 pm

Hi SergioD.
Sorry mate , I have no idea . There are some clever types on here who may be able to offer advice . Salute
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:19 pm

Hi All

Posted on behalf of SergioD.

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90th

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PostSubject: Trpr. F. Secretan , NMP , KIA , Isandlwana    Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:40 am

Hi SergioD / 1879Graves.
Thank you very much for sharing & posting the photo's , its much appreciated .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:25 am

Hammer price for Secretan at £6800, which interestingly was less than Colour sergeant Keane at £7200 and Sergeant Lines at £7800 -which is the one I acquired!!
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PostSubject: Trpr. F. Secretan , NMP , KIA , Isandlwana    Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:35 am

I thought it would be much more than that ! Shocked Suspect Suspect Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
cheers 90th. :evil:
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:52 am

Indeed - unfortunately I was not able to attend the Auction as planned - but my theory is that the absentee bids thought it would be very expensive and so shied away. I expect one of the Dealers snapped it up and I fully expect to see it turn up on a list somewhere in a month or so (once the dust has settled) for around £11000. If not someone got themselves a bargain (as much as £8160 can be a classed a bargain)!!

Cheers

Sergio
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90th

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PostSubject: Trpr. F. Secretan , NMP , KIA , Isandlwana    Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:10 pm

Hi SergioD.
Agreed . Hopefully it may find it's way to a non - auction site !. :lol: :lol:
cheers 90th. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:49 pm

I'd be suprised if any of those KIA's end up on a dealers list (well perhaps one...) as all the prices were well above retail. Indeed thats the first time I've seen a NMP go for more than a 1/24th in 20+ years of collecting

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90th

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PostSubject: Tprt.F. Secretan NMP    Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:07 am

Hi Jager1.
I have a few of the older medal year books and the Colonial Medals were always a little cheaper than those to the
Imperial forces with the 1879 Clasp , may have been the same case with the the other clasps as well . I suppose
a NMP Casualty is rare , only 26 or 27 were KIA at Isandlwana which certainly explains why it was more expensive
than one of the 24th's Medals.
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:57 am

Hi 90th

The medal yearbooks are nothing more than a rough guide regarding prices but certainly SA 1877-9's to Colonials/Irregulars have historically sold for less than Imperial, well until the last couple of years at least... However what I meant regarding the NMP KIA is regardless of rarity, this is the first NMP KIA I've seen sell for higher than a 1/24th, indeed pretty sure this one sold a few years back for in the region of £3900 at the time I paid £4700 for a 1/24th KIA.

This may well set of a trend but DNW do tend to get 'wild' prices on some medals. Saying this I thought the Keane medal was not a bad price. Good retail price for a 1/24th £7-7500, 2/24th around £8-8500.

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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:44 am

Hi, a few years back i bought the Colonial medal rolls for the SAGS from Kew Gdns through Spinks auctions, it as TPR. F. SECRETAN...Father F.H.SECRETAN..2 Clifton Villas, Amberley Road, Lea -Bridge Road, Leyton, Essex....Most of the papers have a little info on most Colonial units...eg. first names, whether engaged the Gaikas and other tribes 1877-78 / Pokwane, 1878, The Griquais 1878 etc etc.You probally have the F.Secretans info but i found it interesting that he came from Leyton. Essex, does the house still exist??
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:14 pm

Towerboy.


Quote :
Hi, a few years back i bought the Colonial medal rolls for the SAGS from Kew Gdns through Spinks auctions

Would this still be available.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:16 pm

RAY63..if you mean do i still have the medal rolls the answer is yes, 2 big boxes of the Colonial medal rolls Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:16 pm

Thanks for reply. What I meant was can they still be obained.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:28 pm

You can get a cd of the original rolls, imperial and colonial. Normally you can find it on ebay and costs around 10 -15 pounds from memory. Well worth it.

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90th

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PostSubject: Trpr. F.Secretan , NMP KIA - Isandlwana   Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:29 pm

Hi Ray63 .
I have the CD of the original rolls but at times from memory they are a little difficult to read . Terry Sole has a book out titled ' For God , Queen & Colony ' this is a listing of all the colonial units that took part in the zulu war only of 1879 . It is more comprehensive than the Forsyth Roll's. It is usually on ebay uk for 45 GBP'S published by Token . It's certainly worth getting also as his the cd . The Sole book from memory doesnt give you the individuals medal listing ie what Clasp or medal they were entitled to . The Forsyth Roll will tell you that along with the cd . Hope this has been some help .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:14 am

My CD has become corrupetd and fails to open - if anyone has a spare one or knows where they can be sourced - please let me know. I found it particularly useful in spotting discrepencies from the Dutton roll.

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:29 am

Ebay as mentioned or Ancestry UK have it online

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PostSubject: Tpr. F. Secretan , NMP KIA Isandlwana   Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:52 am

Hi SergioD.
I just checked through ebay and unfortunately there aren't any CD'S of the zulu war medal roll , but they will appear again in the not to distant future Shocked . Hopefully ..................... scratch .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:07 pm

RAY63 if you have a colonial unit medal you want checking i can have a look at the rolls i have Salute
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PostSubject: Trooper Francis Louis Secretan, NMP   Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:00 pm

Hello all,

My name is David Kirk and I work at A H Baldwin & Sons Ltd as the ODM specialist. Just thought I'd mention this quite superb article on here in relation to Francis 'Louis' Secretan of the NMP, written by his brother. I believe I might be the first to make the link here, but the author refers to his brother as 'Louis', using his middle name rather than 'Francis' which was their father's name in the household. As such, this article pins down this Trooper's location of death I believe towards the start of the Fugitive's trail, before the river (I think!). I was extremely excited to find this article on the British Newspaper Archive - and his brother Archer J Secretan was in the NMP also, but was one of a small party sent away to track the Zulu positions, returning only to see the harrowing scene at the camp when it was too late.

The Standard, Tuesday, March 25, 1879

The Battle of Isandula

The following narrative from Mr A J Secretan, dated Helpmaakaar, February 3, also contains many points of deep interest, especially in reference to the statement of Lord Chelmsford, that the English soldiers were killed running away: -

“My Dear Father, - You will see by the above that we are back in Natal, that is to say, the column with which the Natal Mounted Police were with, and I expect ere this you will have seen in the English papers the awful disaster that has occurred to our army, and the massacre of one thousand white men, including six hundred men of the 1st and 2nd 24th Light Infantry, twenty-seven of the Mounted Police, thirty-two Volunteers, one hundred officers of Native Forces, one hundred and fifty Artillery-men, and the balance made up of transport riders and camp followers. We lost forty-thousand pounds in cash, twelve hundred oxen, forty horses, one hundred and fifty wagons, a million rounds of ammunition, one thousand rifles and carbines, and forty thousand pounds’ worth of men’s kit, clothes, &e., that were left in the camp. The Zulus, in fact, after fighting desperately like fiends, took the whole camp, with two seven-pounder guns. It happened thus:-

On the 21st January General Lord Chelmsford started from camp with eighty Natal Mounted Police, of whom I was one, and fifty volunteers, to scout the country. Well, we had not got ten miles before we saw a number of Zulus on a big hill, and a dozen of us went up close to see their number, and we made them out to be about six thousand, with a reserve of another four thousand on the other side. I was one of the twelve to ride on this difficult duty. A staff officer at once rode back to the camp, bringing back with him four guns, one hundred and eighty Artillerymen, four companies of the 24th, and the natives. Well, we formed up on this hill nearly fifteen miles from camp, but the Zulus had all run away, so we waited till morning and advanced another five miles, but could only see a few stragglers here and there whom we at once shot without any casualties to our side, and we prepared to go back, when at three o’clock a staff officer came tearing towards us to say the camp had been attacked by ten thousand Zulus, and that they were fighting hand to hand with the men left behind when he left.

“This made every man look very serious, as we had left behind thirty-six of our men, and I was very anxious about poor Louis, who was one of the number. Well, we at once started back, for fear our own retreat would be cut off. We did not get back, however, before night had set it and here we had to advance step by step, not knowing whether the enemy were there or not. When we got to about one hundred yards of the camp the four guns we had with us fired ten rounds each of grape canister and shell. The Zulus, however, after completing their work of destruction, had gone with the spoil, and we were foiled of our intentions to avenge our comrades. We had to keep awake all that night, with knives fixed and carbines and revolvers loaded with ball. We were lying amongst thousands of dead, both black and white, while oxen and horses had shared the same fate. Never did I think I should be the witness of such a terrible scene and slaughter. It was truly horrible. I myself was lying in a pool of blood, and a ghastly corpse was just beside me. What an awful suspense every one shared – enough to turn one’s hair grey; and how we prayed for daylight! I was up all the night before, as well as this; but the danger we were in kept me from sleep, as well as the anxiety about poor Louis. Morning at length came to our weary bodies, and we saw the scene of the battle. All the white men, with their entrails, noses, ears, and other parts of their body cut off and thrust in their poor dead mouths; sides slit up and arms thrust in; horses and oxen all lying about, stabbed and ripped up. We saw the British soldiers all lying formed up in a square, where they had held their ground till all were slain where they stood. The gunners were stabbed to a man where they stood by their two guns, the captain himself being shot whilst in the act of spiking the last one.

“Our horses were almost dead beat, as this was the beginning of the third day they had not had their saddles off or their bits out of their mouths, day or night; they wer just like bags of bones. Well, after the officers had gone round the sad scene we left about five a.m., twenty-five of the Natal Mounted Police forming a rear guard, of which I was one. On the road to Rorke’s Drift we found all the way along torn clothes, dead bodies, &c., showing that the fiends had not spared a being so long as they could get near enough to assegai them. We found a few wounded Zulus and stragglers who were promptly despatched by us without mercy; our men were mad with revenge, and can you expect one to have the slightest piece of feeling for these wretches? Further along the road we came across four mounted police lying side by side, three stabbed and one shot, the last named being poor Louis. He had all his clothes on, even to his spurs, but everything about him – arms, money, &c. – was gone; he was not in the least way mutilated. I think these four must have got so far on foot, and that they were followed up before they could get as far as the river, as there were no horses near. He was shot through the back of the head, and death must have ensued directly. I have the following from one of our fellows who escaped, and who when leaving saw Louis mounting his horse. Colonel Durnford called out to him ‘What are you mounting for?’ He replied ‘I have no more ammunition, sir.’ The officer then told him to stand his ground with his knife only, and Louis replied, ‘Yes, sir, I will.’ So you see while others were riding away and cutting their way through, Louis obeyed orders and stood with the soldiers until all the officers were killed and there were no orders to be heard, and then it was every man for himself, and all did the best they could, but to no purpose, as the Zulus are very fleet of foot, and as they have nothing to carry they travel very fast. Just as we reached the river a large body of Zulus were seen by us (the rear guard) about four hundred yards off, and we at once opened fire on them so as to give time to the main body and the General to cross. I thought we should share the same fate as the others, but we had orders to retreat just in time, and the Zulus did not follow us at all.

“You now have as long an account as I can give you on this one piece of paper, the only one to be had in the camp, although I could write pages and pages more if I had the material; however you will see it in The Standard, whose Special War Correspondant was the first to get down to Maritzburg with a correct account. The supposed number that attacked the camp was twenty thousand, the number of Zulus killed was six thousand. We are now entirely destitute of clothing, &c., at least, have been for two weeks, as we saved nothing. I could write about my own miseries and what I have gone through these two weeks, but I am contented enough to have my life and good health as well. The Government are making and getting up a lot of things for us, but we still have to sleep on the ramparts of the fort we have made here, and have the sentry go one hour out of four night after night. The people of Ladysmith have just presented the Volunteers and Mounted Police with a wagon load of most useful things, for which we are very grateful. The Government are also assessing our claims, and I believe they will pay in full. I suppose we shall be on the border till we get the ten thousand men asked for from England, and then we shall be ordered over the river again; thus I shall be away in the Veldt for twelve months.

“Yours, &c.,

Archer J Secretan


Last edited by AHB1872 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:56 pm

AHB1872. Excellent first post, forum member Barry will most certainly be interested.

Click on link below..

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t4642-diary-transcripts-from-trooper-clark-nmp
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:47 pm

Thanks Chelmsfordthescapegoat,

I've found this site very very useful indeed and thought I ought to 'put back' some of my own findings from the past few days. Apologies for any typos in the account - I typed it up yesterday in a little haste.

I know the above account was written by his brother, and aspects may or may not have been written in by A J Secretan to defend against accusations of cowardice etc, but I believe from the tone of the letter that the location at the very least sounds entirely plausible and pretty accurate - and there can surely be no mistaking your own brother - what a coincidence he found him.

I also found something else relating to one 2038 Pte Samuel Walker, 2/24th, that I've posted elsewhere:

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t5863-2038-private-samuel-walker-g-company-2-24th#37165

Thanks to you all,

David
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:49 pm

Wow David, that is an awesome account with much food for thought, particularly regarding the bravery of Durnford and what it implies about other officers who fled the scene.
Was this letter published in The Standard on the day you reference? It would be nice to post up a photo/scan of the original article.
Keep up the good work.
(Bit sick now, I was an under bidder on the Secretan medal !) Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:47 pm

Wonder why he doesn't mentioned RD like most of those who left accounts that spend the night among the dead at Isandlwana. Infact he doesn't mention RD at all.
And so much for Durnsford speech regarding anyone who wants to leave can do so. Poor Louis did get the chance to leave, when he wanted to.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:31 pm

After finding his brother's body at iSandlwana and having spent the night there, he was probably preoccupied and thinking only of the battle in which his brother fell.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:45 pm

Good point, but he found his brother on the 23rd, so wouldn't have know he had been killed until then. Plus would he have not been on his way with the rest of Chelmsford column to RD. With all the anger he mentions bulls up in the men, you would have thought he would have been only to keen to tell how the Zulus got a bit of payback. Just a thought. Salute
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:55 pm

Oh, I read it as if Archer left the scene at dawn on the 23rd and discovered his brother's body on the way to RD, or wherever else he was going.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:14 pm

Just out of interest, did some of the men in Chelmsford's column returning to RD go elsewhere, or did they all go back to RD.
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PostSubject: Tpr .F. Secretan NMP   Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:19 am

Hi littlehand .
All the Imperial troops would have headed to R.D initially , some no doubt were sent back to Helpmekaar at some stage and possibly other places as well . The Colonials possibly the same , back to RD to regroup and recuperate before they moved off to wherever they went , either ordered or dismissed from the Column .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:03 am

Thanks David that was brilliant.

Tasker - I feel your pain - I also underbid on the Secretan medal as you recall it was one of three Isandlwana medals that day and I wanted to keep my powder dry for the Sergeant Lines 2/24th medal. It is a lesson to all of the medal collectors to keep researching - you never know when an interesting peice of research comes along. I have to say though that the Secretan letter is the most spectacularly interesting piece I have seen in 30years of medal researching.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:40 am

David

Thank you for your post on Secretan. It is a most interesting addition to my NMP records. When this medal was sold several years ago, I helped collect information on Secretan, so I have followed accounts relating to the man and his medal.

Regards
Brett
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PostSubject: Tpr .F. Secretan NMP    Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:48 am

Hi Tasker .
Must admit I was thinking of having a go at the Secretan medal but once I worked out the Hammer tax , credit card fee & postage
I gave up ! . Plus I thought it would go for more than what it did ! . I've recently seen Imperial Isandlwana Casualty medals for sale upwards of 8,000 GBP'S . '' Gulp '' . I think I saw another or possibly two at 8,500 GBPD'S , a bit rich I'm thinking . Suspect Suspect Suspect .
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:47 pm

SergioD wrote:
Thanks David that was brilliant.

Tasker - I feel your pain - I also underbid on the Secretan medal as you recall it was one of three Isandlwana medals that day and I wanted to keep my powder dry for the Sergeant Lines 2/24th medal. It is a lesson to all of the medal collectors to keep researching - you never know when an interesting peice of research comes along. I have to say though that the Secretan letter is the most spectacularly interesting piece I have seen in 30years of medal researching.

Hi SerigioD, likewise. :lol:
I underbid on the Lines medal also! A member of this forum won that one I believe.
School boy error, I should have known better! Always best to focus your resources on one target at a time.
By splitting my resources, I was underweight in both, of course.
Guilty of the same mistake as Lord Chelmsford himself! :lol:
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:49 pm

Have to agree also on the Archer Secretan letter. Spectacular; I envy David Kirk finding that, he must have been chuffed to bits!
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:57 pm

[quote="tasker224"]
SergioD wrote:
Thanks David that was brilliant.


Hi SerigioD, likewise. :lol:
I underbid on the Lines medal also! A member of this forum won that one I believe.
School boy error, I should have known better! Always best to focus your resources on one target at a time.
By splitting my resources, I was underweight in both, of course.
Guilty of the same mistake as Lord Chelmsford himself! :lol:

I must confess I was the guy who bought the Lines Medal . I wish I had got the Secretan medal now . The degree of information including where he fought and died is fantastic. I can only speculate where (as a 2/24th A Company Sergeant) Lines was invoved and fell. It is the pride of my collection though.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:55 pm

Well done SergioD; the pride of most collections, one would imagine.
As a member of the 2/24th, Lines' position would be easier to establish than a man of the 1/24th. But wherever he fell, you can be sure he fell fighting, leading, at the forefront of his boys' stand.
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PostSubject: Re: Tpr F Secretan, Natal Mtd Police - KIA iSandlwana   Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:06 pm

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