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 Pulleine was he capable ?

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90th

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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:19 am

Hi Martin.
Thanks mate , I think CTSG is better than that , I suppose we'll see wont we , he realises all we want is the truth or as close as we can get to it .
I hope he wants that as well .
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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:56 am

Hi mate.

Yes, I think CTSG can take it just as good as he can dish it out, and he does come out with some really funny stuff at times. Take for instance that photo of iSandlwana he said he took from his garden with that super camera he said he had with the telescope lens, now that was a real gem, it had many of us in stitches, very funny.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:56 am

Hi all
Hi all

Not need to be a historian or read 10,000 books on Durnford or Pulleine to understand what happened ...

Because historians themselves, are often in opposition and those who were themselves, present in Zululand, were not all inclusive ...

The story is a series of lies upon which we almost all agree ...The fact however Remains a senior military officer That can delegate authority but never responsibility. Yeah, it's true!

And the main error LC, is leaving Durnford enter Zululand ,not Pulleine...

They disagreed both and when we do not agree with his subordinates, they leave aside ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:21 am

Quote :
CTSG if I'm not mistaken, one of the issues forced him to leave a certain site.

In which case, do you think it's wise to use the same material, as the person you speak of.









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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Capable of commanding a battalion in a battle? NO.
Capable of administering a battalion in peace time. Yes, very much so.

Some officers are very good administrators; others are very good fighting men. You very rarely see the 2 qualities in the same man. If you do, he will probably be a man of star rank.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:20 pm

But during the last Cap war , he mobilized and taken to fight a band of irregular cavalrymen and it went well ...
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:30 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
But during the last Cap war , he mobilized and taken to fight a band of irregular cavalrymen and it went well ...

iSandlwana was a different scale Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:35 pm

With another, as glyn, it would have been the same, I think ...
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:58 pm

No doubt, if things had been different and Glyn had been left in charge of the camp, then yes, this thread would probably now be entitled Glyn, was he capable?
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:57 am

Is you really sure?
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PostSubject: Pullee was he capable ?   Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:45 am

He's sure !.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:59 am

yet they are very different, both of them, so I wonder if ...
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Pulliene has often been in the firing line with regards to Isandlwana. Has anyone got hard evidence to show he was incompetent. Hard evidence =Eyewitness accounts, / Court of enquiry documentation.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:38 pm

He followed orders, thats not being incompetent.




Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:09 pm

Good start. Is that a personal observation.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:31 pm

Pulliene was not necessarily the ideal man of the situation ...
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:51 pm

Quote :
Pulliene was not necessarily the ideal man of the situation ...

Most would agree, But where's your "Hard evidence" to substantiate this statement.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:47 am

From 9.15 am at the latest, he should arrange defensive positions ... At the closer of the the camp.

At 9.15 he guesses what might happen and by prudence, he arranges defensive positions ... At the closer of the the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:03 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Quote :
Pulliene was not necessarily the ideal man of the situation ...

Most would agree, But where's your "Hard evidence" to substantiate this statement.

CTSG read TMFH.
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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:41 pm

Pulleine was he capable?

Well, it would appear not wouldn't it?

Maybe it would have turned out a lot better if Chelmsford had taken Pulleine with him and left Glyn at the camp, I am sure that Glyn would have cottoned on that something was afoot with all the reports coming in about zulus, and I'm sure he would have organised some sort of defences long before Durnford arrived, that way, Durnford could have carried out his orders of the 19th, and gone on his way to join up with Chelmsford and Bengough in the attack on the Matyanas. But by leaving Pulleine in charge, Chelmsford made a grave error, and although Pulleine was an officer of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, he was more used to doing admin work than commanding a line regiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:45 pm

Bravo

This is what I kill myself to explain for months, and Upcher have done better than any of the 24 th, in my opinion.

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:59 pm

Martin

Why would he build defences when he had a set of orders on how to defend the camp that had been given
to him by the GOC of troops in South Africa and why would Pulleine have any reason to dout they would
work ?



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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi DB14

You're a brave little soldier well disciplined, it is with attitudes Like this, we end up with massacres Salute

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:44 pm

Have to agree with Pascal, DB14. You are aptly named - as someone said last week, you are the epitome of the drummer boy sat on the ammunition wagon, waving away offers of a ride to safety, obeying his orders to the letter, to the end!

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:47 pm

Oh yes, the drummer boy sat on the ammunition wagon, then this is the king of the kings!
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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:09 pm

Hi Sam.

I understand what you are saying my friend, however, once a situation like this starts to develope, a good officer uses his common sense. And although it may mean not sticking rigidly to orders, a good experienced officer uses his own initiative and flexes the orders to accomodate the situation, and I am afraid that with Pulleine being more of an admin officer than an experienced line officer, he seemed unable to use any common sense and nor did he use his initiative. Of course, when Durnford arrived, he realised that the situation had changed a lot since Chelmsford left, and that it needed attending to. Therefor if it hadn't been for Pulleines laxness in dealing with the situation, Durnford could have carried on with his own orders of the 19th, and joined Chelmsford and Bengough in the attack on the Matyanas. But being the good experienced officer that he was, Durnford must have felt duty bound to assist Pulleine by trying to find out what the zulus were up to, and sent his own men out to try to gain this information. In the time that he was at the camp he did not have the time to set up any better defences, this should have already been done by Pulleine long before Durnford arrived, he had hours in which to do this since the first reports started coming in of zulus in the area.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:10 pm

Quote :
CTSG read TMFH.

How would this help, it's based on reports.

Where is you evidence that shows Pulliene did follow orders. Tasker you doing what you always do, when you don't have an answer, you start skirting around the point of the discussion.

DB, has posted a reasonble reply, you come back with this.

Quote :
Have to agree with Pascal, DB14. You are aptly named - as someone said last week, you are the epitome of the drummer boy sat on the ammunition wagon, waving away offers of a ride to safety, obeying his orders to the letter, to the end!

Why scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:16 pm

Because too much discipline is harmful ! Initiative !!!
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:28 pm

Impi

Compare how Pulleine deployed the troops with Chelsfords orders, they match exactly.

Martin

Thanks, but Pulleine throught he had the situation under control, once he'd assembled the men on the parade ground
the reports kept coming in but nothing happened, no Zulu attack came, so why would he think to change ? What he was doing was working and no attack had yet materialzed. When it did strike it was to late to change.


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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:45 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:51 pm

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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:59 pm

Hi Sam.

Pulleine only THOUGHT he had the situation under control, and a good officer does not wait for an attack to happen, he prepares for it just in case it does, and yes my friend, you are right, when it did strike it was too late to change, so if he had prepared beforehand, he would have at least had a good supply of ammo arranged for the men, and some sort of better defences for them to defend from.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:05 pm

It was Durnford who instigated the attack. The camp was not being attacked prior to Durnfords arrival.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:07 pm

impi wrote:
It was Durnford who instigated the attack. The camp was not being attacked prior to Durnfords arrival.

They were gonna get attacked one way or the other, Durnford only sped up the attack.

Martin

Thanks for the reply Salute



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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:09 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:10 pm

It was Durnford who instigated the attack.Bravo Impi yes it's this are exactly that
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:13 pm

If people look, they will see. They are to wrapped up in trying to portray Durnford as has hero, 132 years on, and they are still trying..
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:17 pm

Durnford as a hero 133 years after yes.

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:31 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:42 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:48 pm

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Apologies, admin Salute


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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:04 pm

impi wrote:
It was Durnford who instigated the attack. The camp was not being attacked prior to Durnfords arrival.

The camp was being surrounded from the early hours of the 22nd january. It is all in TMFH.
I do not think it can be claimed that Durnford started off the whole attack!
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:36 pm

Ah yes,tasker, this is yet one who sent two NNH troops in front of the Zulu and this is one of them (Raw troop), which by " accident " triggered the general attack ...
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:30 pm

Hi
You are right, DB14. Not one column commander, before Isandlwana, would of bothered to arrange defences for a Zulu attack. That's because, in their ignorance, they thought they could defeat any Zulu army, in the open. It doesn't matter how long Pulleine had in preparation, he still would not of put-up any kind of barriers. That only happened after Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Pulleine was he capable?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:28 am

warrior3.

Chelmsford and Pulleine might not have bothered, however, it was a written order in Chelmsford's standing orders, so it would seem that both Chelmsford and Pulleine were guilty of disobeying Chelmsford's own written orders.

Chelmsford also ignored advice from boers about laagering, and this cost many lives, but like you say, this was due to overconfidence, but he never made the same mistake again.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:44 am

Hi all

Chelmsford did not see the need for the laager, stating, "It would take a week to make."


It is believed dreaming !

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:43 am

Mr Cooper
Yes, Chelmsford would have ignored, through over confidence, his own "Standing Orders". If confronted with the Zulu army, he certainly would not of laagered. Don't forget, he went out to Mangeni to support Dartnell. Did he take enough waggons out with him to protect his forces if confronted with a Zulu impi? No, he didn't! He was super, super confident of wiping their behind's with the 24th and the artillary, and had no intention of laaagering. whatsoever. As I've already posted, extreme caution (laagering, etc, etc) was only taken after the debacle of Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:59 am

Warrior 3

Chelmsford not see the need for the laager, Stating, "It Would take a week to make."

Durnford and Pulleine have obeyed, alas Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:18 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Chelmsford not see the need for the laager, Stating, "It Would take a week to make."

Moving camp was utmost on his mind, not being attacked. Chelmsford was probably anticipating a one day stopover at Isandlwana. He was under pressure to wrap up his campaign quickly and his big fear was the Zulu would avoid battle, not seek it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pulleine was he capable ?   Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:28 pm

But no, because of the victory of Centane he thought the MH break all imaginable black warriors charges ...
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