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 Save the Camp

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Commander Howse

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:08 pm

springbok9, Thank You for the information and pictures Salute.

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PostSubject: Save the camp    Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:14 pm

Hi Springy .
It seems we agree to semi agree ! LOL. ( where's that infernal symbol when you need it ) .
Cheers mate , 90th. You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:20 pm

90th
Get your arse over here and walk it like Ive done ( and will again next month).

Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:21 pm

90th
2 books coming up, sent you a PM
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:00 pm

6 pdr wrote: The RB was 12 men

No my old, the RB was one RA officer , 1 RA bombardier and 8 soldiers of the 1/24 th with 3 RL ...

And also if you will, a Infantry coy of the NNC as escort Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:22 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
6 pdr wrote: The RB was 12 men

No my old, the RB was one RA officer , 1 RA bombardier and 8 soldiers of the 1/24 th with 3 RL ... 
From Statement by 665 Private H. Grant (in Norman Holme's THE NOBLE 24th):

"Captain Russell and five of the men of the Rocket Battery were killed by the first volley, leaving only three of us."

So score one for you Pascal. Salute 

P.S. I don't know which is more surprising.  That the Zulu unleashed such a lethal volley, or that Grant and the others expressed no surprise to be shot down that way. - 6pdr
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 pm

6pdr, the British are always famous for understatements.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:57 pm

Commander Howse wrote:
6pdr, the British are always famous for understatements. Commander Howse
Very Happy 

But think of the implications. Do you really think that if the Zulu had gained the Isandlwana hill, their gunfire could have been suppressed by two measly 7 pounders?
(Which, at any rate were not built with carriages that supported much elevation...)

The Zulu may have carried more firearms to Isandlwana than the British & Colonials, albeit of lesser quality...and lacking the doctrine and training to use them en masse.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:47 pm

6pdr, What kind of shot were they firing?

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:56 pm

Anything they could lay hands on...but tens of thousands of guns had been brought into Zululand by John Dunn for Cetshwayo.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:11 pm

6pdr, I was referring to the artillery, and it would depend on how close they were to the heights and the elevation of the heights. Since I have not been there I can not really say if they were capable of even getting the shells that high.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:31 pm

Commander Howse wrote:
6pdr, I was referring to the artillery, and it would depend on how close they were to the heights and the elevation of the heights. Since I have not been there I can not really say if they were capable of even getting the shells that high. Commander Howse  
Oh! Sorry. They had the equivalent of shot and case, I believe. The ascent of the hill is quite steep. It would have been difficult and slowed the rate of fire considerably IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:32 pm

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This with explosive shells would of got the job done, but I would have focused more on the fight in front of me using canister shot.

The highest point on the hill is just about 328ft. If they had the Artillery in the center of camp it would be able to reach. I could be wrong, I am no artillery expert. Give me a Gatling Gun and I with my crew will save Isandlwana.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:37 pm

Exploding shells would work but Canister would be useless at that range and height.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:23 pm

It would possibly be better to discuss the weapons that were there on the day! What they could have use is really of no consequence ?
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:36 pm

John wrote:
It would possibly be better to discuss the weapons that were there on the day! What they could have use is really of no consequence ?
Agreed. The guns they had weren't howitzers. Anybody have any idea what their max. elevation was? They might have jury rigged a solution to get a few extra degrees but there's no way they could have hit the peak IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:42 pm

John, they did have 7 pound guns there at Isandlwana.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:58 pm

The guns have a max of about 3,100 yards, max elevation is anywhere between 15 degrees to 25 degrees.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:02 pm

Where's Neil our in house expert!
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:12 pm

Range is correct but for the elevation, I can not find any information.


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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:01 am

Is the range not dictated by the amount of powder used. The more powder the greater the range?
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:50 am

6pdr wrote: I do not know All which is more surprising. That unleashed the Zulu Such a lethal volley, or That Grant and the others Expressed no surprise to be shot down that Way. - 6pdr

Both! My old ...

Masson wrote: 6pdr, the British are always famous for understatements.

Dude, I already told you that there was only the book ES of Julian Whybra for the british effectifs at Isandhlwana and RD, buy one that will come out this month, because with his research, the roll of the defenders of RD has changed ...

6pdr wrote: The Zulu May Have Carried to Isandlwana more firearms than the British & Colonials, albeit of lesser quality ... and lacking the doctrine and training to use 'em en masse.

Yes my old, that's what I think from now on, those who told me (old members of this forum) that the Zulus had only 2% "musketeers" the 22/23 January are deceived me ...

Some witnesses have spoken of amaviyo fully equipped with firearms to Isandhlwana, which would make fire support,for others amaviyo , if it is, they're right!

By cons may be that it is only valid for the horns and chest, as if to RD, the zulus  had many muskets, they would have killed and injured more defenders than this, in each assault. However, it seems to be that only the Zulu snipers  have obtained results with their firearms ...

And yet, the reserve has nearly that of married men, who are supposed to have more firearms ... So for me it is about problem.


6 pdr wrote: But think of the implications. Do you really think That if the Zulu HAD Gained The Isandlwana hill, Their gunfire Could have been suppressed by two measly 7 pounders?
(Which, at any rate Were not built with carriages That much supported elevation ...)

My old, the Zulu right horn (and the British, a British unit at the top of Mt Isandhlwana, could hold up the night) are the only ones who have had the opportunity to send snipers on Mt Isandhlwana, they did not ...

Masson wrote: 6pdr, What kind of shot firing Were They?

Dude, they even used pieces of pottery as a munition !

6 pdr wrote : Anything they could lay hands on...but tens of thousands of guns had been brought into Zululand by John Dunn for Cetshwayo.

Yes, my old and others too, we even found the horse I do not know what British officer at the hands of a white , we Anticipated To have fought with the Zulus at Isandhlwana (this is one of my ancient topic)


Masson wrote: 6pdr, I was referring to the artillery, and it depends on how Would They Were close to the heights and the elevation of the heights. Since I have not been there I can not really say if They Were able of even getting the shells That high.

6 pdr wrote: Oh! Sorry. They Had the equivalent of box shot and, I believe. The ascent of the hill is quite steep. It Would Have beens difficulty and the rate of fire Slowed Considerably IMO.

Oh guys! We stop the delirium, the section of the British artillery had never fired on Mount Isandhlwana, although there was Zulu, it is technically impossible!


Masson wrote: This with explosive shells Would of got the job done, I would aim Have Focused more on the fight in front of me using canister shot.

My old ,RA in Zululand, is never useful explosive shells!

Regulation of the Ra ordered that they be used only as against urban areas (they are not even used against the Zulu villages)

RA in Zululand only uses Case shots and Shappnell, the maximun range of Shappnell of the two 7pdrs of Isandhlwana is 800 yards and Chelmsford ordered Pulleine do start fires only 600 yards, including artillery ...

Masson wrote: The Highest Point on the hill is just about 328ft. If They Had the Artillery in the center of camp it Would Be ble to reach. I Could be wrong, I am no expert artillery. Give a Gatling Gun with my crew and I will save me Isandlwana.

The Gatling are not really efficasses even 6 Gatling would not have changed much, the Zulu warriors use the ground, they could finally have shot the servants ... Especially now that (contrary to what was said before about this forum...), they are well equipped with modern firearms , 500 BLR with the zoulous ?!


Cheers

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PostSubject: Save the camp    Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:03 am

Hi Rascal .
I dont think there were many modern rifles with the zulu army , there were thousands of old antiquated weapons , but 500 modern weapons , I doubt it very much . Would need to see some evidence to support that theory !. Shocked 
Cheers . '' M ''. Joker 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:31 am

Hi Marsupial It is not me who started this theory, but was told by someone (And thou hast spoken lately ...Very Happy )in this forum that the Zulus had many firearms, including 500 BLR ...

So if there were actually 500 BLR in Zululand in January 1879? I'll bet they were almost all at Isandhlwana!

Cheers "PTR" Joker 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:34 am

Oh I forgot, BLR, BLR, but of what kind scratch ?
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:13 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:

My old, the Zulu right horn (and the British, a British unit at the top of Mt Isandhlwana, could hold up the night) are the only ones who have had the opportunity to send snipers on Mt Isandhlwana, they did not ... Pascal
Cmdr. Howse and I were discussing a hypothetical situation. I think we are all pretty much aware that in reality the necessity did not arise of sending Zulu firearms up Isandlwana since the battle was concluded rather quickly.

I was merely raising an alternate possibility that is often conveniently overlooked by those who insist the British would have won if Pulleine had merely pulled back in a square on the lower slopes of Isandlwana. It seems to me that if the Zulu held the high ground with firearms that concentration tactic would not be a sure fire winner...but let's not waste too much more time on this. It's all supposition apart from figuring out how much those 7 pounders might elevate!
Question 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:52 pm

6pd
In his book Campaigning in Zulu Land Captain Montague gives a vivid description of how the battle could have been fought.
'Thus had the troops held the neck with a slight force, suported by an entrenchment an enemy would have found the front of the camp alone open to an attack-their advance morever, having to climb a sloping glacis, perfectly open on all sides, and specially adapted to artillery or musket fire. No better position need have been wished for had only precautions been taken against at attack from the rear.'

He goes on to describe the moral of the troops etc. Makes interesting reading, however I would assume that the Captain was not conversant with the orders to 'defend the camp'. And thats the key issue really.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:05 pm

6pdr wrote:


I was Merely raising an alternate possibility That Is Often conveniently overlooked by the British insisted Those Who Would Have Won if Pulleine HAD Merely pulled back in a square on the lower slopes of Isandlwana.


But either way, my friend, in January 1879, the square is no longer in use in the British infantry because of the appearance of Snider and MH, so never would Pulleine ordered this kind of training. ..

The infantry square appears again after Isandhlwana!

LC has, alas ordered a type of deployment well in advance of the camp for its defense in case of attack ...

Imagine rather Pulleine and the 24 th Infantry formed on 2 ranks in close order, with the two 7 pdrs guns and the 3-9 pdr RL at the center of this line ... with infantry and pioneers of NNC behind this infantry line of the 24 th ...

This line in the form of a crescent ... With prepared cartridge boxes ...

All the mounted troops (on foot for the occasion ,keeping the arrears with Durnford, with cartridges boxes prepared ...) to prevent the right horn lead from behind Mt Isandhlwana ...

They would have held much longer... But for that, he would have had Pulleine have the courage to disobey the instructions of defense left by LC...
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:08 pm

Any ways you could do worse than LC had ordered toPulleine for the defense of the camp !
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:46 pm

springbok9 wrote:
'Thus had the troops held the neck with a slight force, suported by an entrenchment...
Entrenchment?  And if wishes were horses then beggars would ride.  With apologies to the good Captain, wouldn't it be easier to assume that the wagons sitting beside the nek be laagered in that area?  That whole line of reasoning assumes an attack was anticipated however...so it's cheating!

Quote :
Makes interesting reading, however I would assume that the Captain was not conversant with the orders to 'defend the camp'. And thats the key issue really. Cheers
Couldn't agree more. It's easy to pick on Snook in certain respects but he makes some really sobering primary arguments.  Reminding us that Pulleine's entire mission would have been holding the camp was one of them IMO.  And once I saw how closely Pulleine adhered to Chelmsford's paint-by-the-numbers defense instructions, I realized there was ZERO chance he would have done anything differently.  Nor (absent 20-20 hindsight) should he have done, given that this was his first battle.


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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Pascal, the Gatling Guns saved both the number 1 and 4 column. It and its offsprings changed the course of war fare all together, I guarantee if they had Gatling guns they would have been the victors of Isandlwana. Of course, they would have to be deployed right.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:58 pm

6pr
Yes fully agree, the idea of posting the Captains comments was really to show that even then the battle wasnt really understood, nor its implications.
It wasnt only Henry Pulleins last battle it was unfortunatly also his first. He did what a good Victorian soldier was trained to do, obey an order. ( The era wasnt know for its flexibility).
Interesting thing about looking up the Captains views was that I re found one of the most profoundly moving descriptions of the battle field. If I get chance over the next couple of days I will post it.

Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:01 pm

Commander Howse wrote:
I guarantee if they had Gatling guns they would have been the victors of Isandlwana. Commander Howse
Yes, and they would have saved Custer at the Little Bighorn too, right? Perhaps you've forgotten Kiplings poem? Gatling guns could jam...or dare I say...run out of ammunition. No guarantees, particularly when you can't get your money back. Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Both number two and number three columns did not have gatling guns. If I was Durnford, I would rather have a gatling gun instead of the RB. It is just like Little Big Horn, Custer was offer gatling guns but refused because he said it would slow him down. If he would have brought them with him he would had won. The gatling gun saved number one column.




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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:07 pm

Commander Howse wrote:
It is just like Little Big Horn...If [Custer] would have brought them with him he would had won.
WHOA. You are in WAY over your head if you actually believe that. But this is not the forum for that discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:09 pm

6pdr, you beat me to Custer. You are correct about the Gatling Guns but when they did work they slaughter the enemy. Two well trained crews would have held the right horn back easily by themselves. Two crews could defeat the right horn within 5 to 10 Minutes and that is if the Zulus do not retreat before then.


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PostSubject: Save the camp    Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:18 pm

Hi Mason.
I wouldnt say the Gatling Gun saved No1 column , they only had 1 ! . Reports from the battle of Inyezane ( No1 Column )state that the gun was finally brought into action when the result was clear in any case , and it did jam from memory .
I remember posting the information about the Gatlings there and elsewhere during the war on here somewhere previously.
Off the top of my head I dont think Wood's No4 Column had a Gatling Gun ! . Although this isnt the place I to have misgivings in thinking Gatlings would've saved George Armstrong Custer . They were very prone to jamming , can you imagine the state Custer's Gatling's would've been in after their ride through the dusty and powdery / Chalky conditions they had to contend with ? .
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:26 pm

6pdr wrote: this was His first battle

Yes agree , it did not help! This is something which we never think! And Durnford was not much better off ...
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:33 pm

90th, you are correct number 4 column did not have any gatling guns.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:40 pm

In your opinion, except LC, which are the two officers who had enough experience of fighting in the third column and would do better than Durnford and Pulleine ?

Pulleine is a bad choice to have been left in the camp and for Durnford, LC would have done better to keep with him, rather than give him the second column (which should never have existed in my opinion)
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:46 pm

Pascal LC was thinking about combining Number 2 and 3 column. The problem with number 2 column was that it was misused.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:50 pm

Since this was just a supply wagon guard duty Pulleine was capable. Anybody higher in rank would have been overkill. Once it turned into a major battle that is when it was to much for Pulleine.

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PostSubject: Save the camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:58 pm

Hi Rascal.
It's pointless to say who would do a better job than Pulleine , Mason is correct , LC put Pulleine in charge of a supply camp , LC never expected the camp to be attacked .
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:05 pm

Should have left De Gaucher in charge.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:19 pm

Marsupial wrote: LC never expected to be attacked This is the camp.
So why? He left her tactics for the defense?
Cheers PTR
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:24 pm

In case a small force of zulus attack the camp. He did not expect the entire zulu army.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:27 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Marsupial wrote: LC never expected to be attacked This is the camp.
So why? He left her tactics for the defense?
Cheers PTR
Because he was a lot more professional than you give him credit for Rascal. You never seem to take into account that LC was able to return to Zululand after this horrendous defeat and dethrone Cetshwayo. He was overconfident in January, not an utter fool. Do you think Glyn might have done better than Pulleine though?
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:35 pm

6 pdr: Do you think Glyn Might Have done better than Pulleine though?

Yes, I think so!

But there are certainly others!
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PostSubject: Save the camp    Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:36 pm

Hi Rascal .
Mason is in my opinion on the money again along with 6pdr , LC had the good sense to leave orders for Pulleine , albeit they werent the correct one's with us looking with the benefit of hindsight , ( Impi's favourite word ! ) . Also Pulleine , LC and his other staff certainly werent expecting an attack of that magnitude at Isandlwana , dont forget , Pulleine and his officers were of the opinion LC was going to be taking on the Zulu Army . Shocked 
'' M '' Joker 
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:38 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
6 pdr: Do you think Glyn Might Have done better than Pulleine though?

Yes, I think so!
Why?

Quote :
But there are certainly others!
Who? (But let's keep it reasonable. I don't want to discuss whether Napoleon could have won with B-52s.)
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