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Brev. Lt-Col. R.H. Buller, VC, Staff: 2/60th KRRC-Zungwini,Hlobane, Khambula, Ulundi
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littlehand

littlehand

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Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  Empty
PostSubject: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 9:22 pm

He twice says "Yakee Dandy" I think he is referring to a person, he also thought Sheiss had been killed in the Boerwar. Let me know your thoughts. Could it be Sergeant Henry Gallagher. Question

Click Here:
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 10:36 pm

LH. Great post..

He's referring to Sgt Milne or though he calls him Sgt Mills.

That's a new account regarding Anderson being shot as a deserter. Poor old chap was sick with fever.

One more observation. He states that Chelmsford colum was accompanied as far as the Bashee Valley 2 Miles of to their left. I thought the only Zulus they saw was those leaving RD.

I believe the soldier who wrote this artical, was at Rorkes Drift, he knows so much of what went on. A bit puzzled why he didn't write under his real name.
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sas1

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 11:44 pm

LH. He says he was in Londales NC


1st Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Adendorff, Gert Wilhelm
Mayer, Jessy H. Corporal.
A native of Mkungo’s tribe, killed in action 22 January 1879


2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Anderson, Michael. Corporal. , killed whilst deserting 22 January 1879
Doughty, William. Corporal.
Scammell, Carl. Corporal.
Schiess, Ferdnand Christian. Corporal., awarded Victoria Cross?

He names all in the 2nd and 3rd NCC
It woundn't be Adendorff, Gert Wilhelm, as he notes his arrival.
And the native was killed.

So I'm guessing the writer is either.
Mayer, Jessy H. Corporal.
Wilson, John. Corporal.

PS The young man who belonged to the NMP could only be
(Hunter, Sydney H. Trooper., killed in action 22 January 1879)
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Any idea who this soldier is , he was a sgt major at R.D ?   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 6:53 am

Hi All .
The name in the paper is ' Yankee Dan '' this would be the puntman as his name was Daniels ( Civilian ) .
I thought it may have been Mayer but reading the accounts Mayer was in the hospital with a severe wound.
So you would think he would mention this in the newspaper but he doesnt so I doubt it's mayer , Julian will
more than likely have a good idea . You need to study mo . Schiess as we know died at sea on the way to England .
It does seem this writer may have been there , but there were a few who said they were there and indeed they weren't !!. Suspect .As sas1 mentions Corp. J. Wilson , according to Rorkes Drift By Those Who Were There
by A.B. Jones & L. Stevenson , there is no report by Corp Wilson but the newspaper writer does mention the other 4 corp's Anderson , Doughty , Scammell , Schiess & Muller ( Mayer ! ) and in the roll of Rorkes Drift in England's Sons there is a Corp John Wilson listed in the NNC 2nd Batt / 3rd Regt as are the other 4 . I think he's our best candidate !.
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 7:38 am

Thats a fascinating artical. Some interesting points in there, such as his discription of the direction that Addendorf came from. Its not the route he himself said he took.

Well done LH more b****y confusion. :lol: :lol:

Cheers
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 8:02 am

He says Spalding left on the 21st Jan, to chase up reinforcements.

Was it assumed that ardendroff came in along the Bashee valley. This would have the same way Chelmsfords column returned to RD.

I always thought it was Milne or Windridge who offered to defend the punt in the midddle of the river.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Any idea who this soldier is . He was a Sgt Maj at R.D.   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 9:44 am

Hi Impi.
Fairly certain Milne volunteered to man the pont and stay with it from the middle of the river .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 9:08 pm

Any accounts of a RD defender being wounded in the neck.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 10:32 pm

John Lyons was struck in the neck by a musket ball.

"1112 Pte John Jeremiah Lyons, Died 1st May 1923 St Woolos Cemetery.

Enlarge this image



Enlarge this image Click to see fullsize



FROM SURGICAL EXPERIENCES IN THE ZULU WAR.
CORP JOHN JEREMIAH LYONS. OF THE 2ND/ 24TH,

" When engaged in the defense of rorkes drift, recieved a bullet in his neck near the posterior margin of the sterno- mastoid on the left side, about the upper portion of the middle third of its length. Only one wound, that of entrance was present. He complained of great pain in the neck on the slightest movement. When in bed, the pillow caused an increase in this. He had lost almost all use of his arms and hands, especially the right one, which he described as quite dead. Painful twitchings were experienced in the arms. Whenever he wished to move his head from the bed, someone had to support it between their hands before he could do so. At rorkes drift several surgeons tried to find the bullet, but were unsuccessful. In the above condition he came under my care at helpmaaker 26th jan, four days after the injury. Next day i put him under chloroform and made a prolonged attempt to find the bullet. The course i found it had taken was in a direct line with the spinal cord. I made a free opening in the middle line as far down the course as possible, and again attempted to reach the bullet. I found by digital examination now that the processes of two adjacent vertabrae were smashed. I could also feel the spinal cord itself. Pressure thereon instantly caused the patient to turn pale and the pulse to be almost imperceptible, and necessitated the immediate withdrawl of the chloroform and the adoption of artificial respiration. I took away several pieces of the vertebral processes which were lying loose, but had to give up attempting to reach the bullet. The case continued much as described for some time. He was sent to the base hospital at Ladismith, and on taking over the medical charge of that hospital a month later, i found my old patient much in the same condition. He was suffering greatly from the pain in his arms and wished to have them both off ! to relieve him from it. O n examination, on making firm pressure , i found a distinct hard substance beneath the ligamentum nuchae which was not present on former occasions. On consultation with the surgeon- general of the forces, who happened to be on a tour of inspection at the time, i cut down upon it and enulceated an ordinary round bullet with a rather long rough process extending from its smooth surface. This wound healed rapidly, but the original one continued to discharge slightly for a long time. In a few days the pain entirely disappeared from his arms, and their use nearly returned. he was shortly after sent home to England."
Article provide by forum member 90th

Also the man who wrote the artical, states he met the wounded man in East London 4 years later. Lyons was returned to England.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 4:03 pm

There is much that is wrong in the account by the 'Old soldier' and some things that are right...but it was written twenty years after the war. My first inclination was to believe it was a fake but I've found that there are some facts stated which no-one else would have known unless the writer had been at RD (though not necessarily a participant in its defence). If it is genuine the writer certainly seems to have exaggerated and embellished his part in the fight. Almost the only candidate would be Corporal John Wilson 2/3rd NNC. Discovering whether Wilson emigrated to Australia would clinch it. The alternative is that the writer was a colonial and either knew some of the personalities involved personally (like Anderson) or had served in the 2/3rd NNC (but not at RD) and has 'orchestrated' this account for his own reasons.
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 8:32 pm

LYONS

Lyons retained the musket ball extracted from his neck and later had it fixed to his watch chain as a "lucky charm". We have the watch chain and musket ball in the Brecon Museum !!!

Bill
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 9:14 pm

With Reference to Corporal Carl Scammell. Mystery Sgt states he was shot in the neck.

ARMY MEDICAL DEPARTMENT.
"Case II. Corporal C. S., of the 1st battalion 2nd Co. Natal Native Contingent, was wounded at Rorke's Drift. The bullet hit the back of the head at the posterior margin of the left sterno- maetoid at its origin, and took a course towards the middle of the scapular baae, where the bullet lodged suhcutaneously, from which position it had been removed when I took chaise of him on the 26th January. Here also the whole shoulder was greatly swollen and painful, requiring poultices. This case, after the usual
slough came away, got wel"l.


Source:
SURGICAL EXPERIENCES
IN THE ZULU AND TRANSVAAL WARS,
1879 and 1881.
BY D. BLAIR BROWN, F.R.C.S. Edin
Posted as original text.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 9:25 pm

He mentions a young man who had been assegaied,and he worn a smart uniform ( Natal Mounted Police) one NMP Defender killed.( Hunter, Sydney H. Trooper., killed in action 22 January 1879) Any information on this chap appricated.


Posted by forum member "Barry" Daily transcript of Tpr Clarke's diary, January 23rd 1879, early am Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:09 pm
"We could see men moving about around the Commissariat store there, so Col Russell and the Mounted Infantry were sent to reconnoitre and after crossing the drift we saw them gallop up to the building which proved to us that the enemy had been unsuccessful in their assault on RD.

Soldiers on the ramparts of the fort were waving flags and we cheered loudly on hearing that the Zulu's had been repulsed with heavy losses to their numbers. The first dead body that we saw was that of an N.N.C. NCO who had been shot for running away from the Fort before the fight commenced.

One of the N.M.P, Tpr Hunter had been killed whilst making his escape from the hospital to the Commissariat store and we were told that a Zulu had assegaied him twice, but that he had had his revolver in his hand and shot his assailant dead , falling dead himself immediately afterwards".



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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 11:30 pm

This will make it easier to follow, rather than keep clicking on link to see artical. Maybe some spelling mistakes but it's taken ages to type out. Salute

"THE DEFENCE OF RORKE'S DRIFT.

By An Old Soldier.

Melbourne Argus.

"On Monday morning, January 20th, 1879, No. 3 Column, under the command of Lord Chelmsford, broke up their camp on the Zulu side of the Buffalo river, close to Rorke's Drift Mission Station, and marched to Isandhiwana or laandnla—the iirst is_ the Zulu name pronounced with a click of the tongue in the middle of it. It means the mountain on the left hand.

The garrison left behind at Rorke'e Drift to guard the commissariat store and hospital, into which the Mission buildinge had been converted, consisted principally of B Company of the 2-24 th Regiment, about 80 or 90 strong, under the command of Lieutenant Bromhead, 2-24th. The officer in command of the post was Major Spalding, a staff officer. And the second in command was Lieutenant Chard, Royal Engineers. I had bsen left behind to assist. Lieutenant Chard in looking after a road-making party, through having formerly served in the Royal Engineers. I had with mc five corporals (viz., Anderson, Doughty, Muller, Scammell, and Schiess), of my corps, Lonsdale'a Native Contingent, of which regiment I was sergeant-major. There were also 200 Natal Kath'rs, who had not yet been posted to companies, and were left behind to work on the road between Rorke's Drift and Helpmakaar, which was about twelve miles to the rear. These Kaffirs were under the command of an Afrikander Scotchman named Stevenson, who held the rank of captain in Lonsdale's Native Contingent, and who could talk Kaffir well. The sick and some wounded from the first day's skirmish at Sihayo's kraal on the 12th January were in the hospital, under the care of Surgeon Reynolds, 2-24 th Regiment. The tents were pitched in front of the commissariat store, and faced the river, which was about 800 yards away. On the afternoon of Tuesday, the 21et, Major Spalding went back to Helpmakaar with the intention of bringing down two companies of the l-24th, who were there under the command of Major Upcher, to strengthen the garrison at Rorke's Drift. On Wednesday morning, about 9 a.m., Colonel Durnford, R.E., passed mc on the road with some Kaffir horsemen, known as Durnford's Horse. He also had with him a rocket batteryjof the Royal Artillery. Having formerly served with the colonel in the Imperial army, we had a short conversation together. After a short stay at the Mission Station, I saw him and his men cross the river, and take the road to Isandula—the road to their death, for they were all killed before 2 o'clock that day. About 12, noon, guns were heard firing in the direction of Isandula, but no one had the least doubt as to how an engagement with our column would end..

THE FIRST NEWS.
After dinner the missionary, Mr Witt (he had remained at the Mission Station, though he had sent away his wife and daughters to Greytown, the day we inarched from Helpmakaar to the Mission Station), accompanied by an English clergyman, the Rev. Mr Smith, who bad come on a visit, went up a mountain, called Oscareberg, which rises abruptly from the Buffalo River to the right front of the Mission Station, to see if they could find out what was going on at Isandula. About three o'clock I was at the crossing-place on the river, where the punt was, having wanted j to see Lieutenant Chard for some instructions as to the road work. Lieutenant Chard intended to make some alterations to the punt, and there were with him at the river when I arrived there Sergeant .Mills, 3rd Buffs, who was doing engineer's duty, and an old boatman who worked the j punt, and was Known aa Yankee dan a very hard and. pluckly old man. While we were talking two horseman were seen over the ridge out of the bashee valley from the direction of Isandlwana.They were then about three miles away, the road from the river running straight and level. for about that distance in that direction -Lieutenant Chard was looking at them through his glasses, and remarked on the speed they were coming at, thinking it possible that they ' were pursued by the enemy. The punt Was at once taken over to the. otherside by the Yankee Dan in readiness for- them. when they came over they proved to be a Dutch lieutenant of Lionsdale's Native Contingent named Adendorp, and a trooper of the Natal Carbineers. They were very naturally excited after the scene they had just left. Their information was that; the whole of the general's column was cut up. The trooper, who had the best horse, was sent on with the news, and I believe he eventually reached Pietermaritzburg, after spreading terror and dismay all along the -way. Just about this time a soldier brought a message to Lieutenant Chard from Lieutenant Bromhead that he had got information that the enemy had crossed a drift about five miles higher up the river, and were coming round to attack the Mission Station. There was a short consultation held as to what would be best to do with the punt. It was decided to swing it in. the centre of the stream and anchor it. Yankee Dan volunteered to remain on it and defend it against the enemy, but Lieutenant Chard would not allow him to do so. Lieutenant .Bromhead had got his information from Mr Witt and Mr Smith, who, from the top of the mountain, had seen the enemy cross the river.

HE WAS AN ENGLISHMAN. On our arrival at the store we found a troop of Durnford's Horse had just come in, with a white officer in charge. Lieutenant Chard at once ordered him to take out his troop and reconnoitre the advance of the enemy, and fall back on the Mission Station. I was ordered to go aad bring in Captain Stevenson and the 200 Kaffirs working on the road. When I told him what be was wanted for at the mission station he translated it to the Kaffirs, who immediately cleared off up the road towards Helpmakaar, and he went with them. I returned to the Mission Station accompanied by two European corporals (Doughty and Scammell}, who had been with the party, and reported the matter to Lieutenant Chard. I then saw the missionary, Mr Witt, leaving on horseback for Greytown, after trying in vain to get the Rev. Mr Smith to accompany him, which Mr Smith refused to do. I believed he remarked that he was an Englishman, and his place was with his countrymen when they were in danger. About this time the white officer of Durnford's Horse came back by himself, saying that the Zulus were coming on, and that his men were afraid of them, and had cleared off. The barricades of mealie bags, coffee tins, bags of sugar, and biscuit boxes, which had been erected for the defence, were now ordered to be made smaller, as there were not now so many men to defend them.

THE ATTACK.
At about fifteen minutes past four p.m. the enemy came in sight round the spur of the Oscarberg Mountain. They at once advanced in their visual attack formation of half-circle, the centre of their line being opposite the hospital building (thie was of stone, with thatch roof). After two or three volleys had been fired at them they broke, and divided into two separate columns, one going to their right, and taking up a position on a little plateau 200 ft. or 300 ft. high on the side of the mountain, 'where there was plenty of cover fot them in the uhape of boulders and caves. They were only about 400 yards away from us from that position, and they commanded nearly the whole of our enclosure, until some timeafter a wall of mealie bags was built up across the i centre. There were doorways in this wall, made by building two biscuit boxes on each other for the sides, and another box on top of them, so that the men could pass quickly from one side to the other of the enclosure. The enemy's column which took ground to their left took post in the orchard and some trees, the nearest of which were only about i ten yards from the enclosure on that side. It was from the cover of those trees that the I most serious rushes were made through the night, and the severest of the fighting was done. The building need as a store was built of sun-dried bricks, only one brick thick, with thatch roof. It was garrisoned [ by about sixteen men of the 24th, under. the command of the colour-sergeant of the company and Sergeant Joe Windridge. Here every man used his own discretion in taking out bricks where he though he could do most execution.

SUDDENLY INSANE.
About six: o'clock the firing was going on briskly all round. I was looking .after the building of the wall of mealie-bags when I saw a corporal named Anderson, of Lonsdale'e Contingent, who had been ill with fever, jump over the barricade, near where the road to Helpmakaar was. Not coming back when ordered to do so he was fired at and killed, the bullet striking him in the back ot the head. My own opinion of this was that the man had suddenly become insane, for there was not the slightest chance of him escaping the Zulus, who would quickly have run him down. He was a very smart young fellow, and had been a trapeze performer in a circue in the Old Country.

THE BURNING HOSPITAL.
About 9 o'clock the hospital roof, which had been burning for some time, fell in. I think three of our men perished in it, but it was full of Zulus when the roof fell in, the four men who had been holding the door having just beforehand been ordered to retire.

HALF COOKED. About midnight I was between th hospital and the store, firing at some Zulus, who were crawling ov«r the ground from the direction of the plateau before-mentioned, when Corporal Scammell, of the Contingent, who was on the left of mc, fell, crying out, "lam cooked." On looking at him I saw that a bullet had gone through hie neck without touching any vital part. I sent him over to Dr. Reynolds, who was in the centre of the enclosure, attending to the wounded. Some time after he came back to mc, and on my asking him how he was he said he did not think he would live till daylight, and that the doctor had stufted something in the holes in his neck, and told him to go away and lie down somewhere out of the road of bullets. I made him lie under a waggon, and put some mealie bags round him to protect him. I may here say that he ultimately recovered, and I afterwards met him at Eaat London, where he was employed on the surf-boats.

THE ZULUS RETIRE. At about 4 o'clock in the morning, it being then daylight, the enemy retired around the mountain in the direction from which they had first come, carrying with them all their wounded men. We had now a chance of looking round us. Our tents, the poles of which we had pulled down and left lying on the ground outside, had been looted, and in some instances burnt. The store was in such a shaky condition through so many bricks having been taken out of the walls that it had to be shored up with some timber at once. The thatch roof, which had been on fire, had also to be stripped off, and some waggon sail-cloths put on instead. Every one of its defenders had his own little heap of dead Zulus in front of his hole. The biggest score, I think, was a Corporal Miller's, who had sixteen on his mound. In front of this store was a little outhouse, which was used as a cook-house for the company. Into this the Zulus had got through the night for the purpose of firing into'the store through the loopholes. But, unfortunately for them, the whole of the interior of the outhouse was commanded by those same loopholes. The result was thirty-three dead Zulus lying about that kitchen in the morning.

INCIDENTS.
While looking round, I saw a fair-haired young lad of the 24th lyintj on his back with a small hole in his forehead. Only the night before he was alongside mc at the beginning of the fight, and said to mc, " Chum, this is not your first fight. What do you think, can we beat them ?" " Oh, yes," I replied, " beat them easy." "I am so sorry I had not time to write a few lines to my mother," he said. " Yon can write in the morning, and tell her we have licked the Zulus," I answered. And here this handsome boy lay dead. I could not help pitying the mother when she got the news.' By his side lay a smart young fellow in the dark green uniform of the Natal police ; -hie death had been harder than the boy's, for he had assegai wounds all the assegai belonging to the dead Zulus wrere picked up and brought inside and a redoubt of meelie was erected to the left of the store to serve us as a last resource when ibe ammunition would be finished. All the night the old clergyman had been conspicuous by his plucky behaviour. He volunteered -to carry ammunition to those men who were stationed at certain points, and when a man fell wounded lie would stop and say a few words of prayer or consolation to him. But not for long some impatient young soldier would be heard calling out, Where the —;— — is that old. parson ; Hurry him along with some ammunition here." And hurry along he did.

RELIEF. About 7 a.m. -the Zulus again made their appearance in attack formation, but after advancing a little way they suddenly halted, faced about, and retired out of sight. We were at a loss to understand what this movement meant, until shortly after we saw some mounted men, with, red coats and white helmets, coming in sight over the ridge from Isandula. These were Mounted Infantry, and the Zulu scouts had seen them before us, hence their retreat. We had been under the impression that the whole of the general's column had been destroyed, so never thought about looking for help in that direction. Then came artillery and red-coated infantry and Lonsdale's Native Contingent, with more red-coats bringing up the rear. When they had come within a mile of the river we were surprised to see the column halt, and only the mounted men come on. We found out afterwards that the general was dubious whether we or the Zulus were in possession of the Mission Station, as a number of red coats and helmets had been taken off the dead men at Isandula. When the mounted men had satisfied themselves that things were all right, the column came on, and when the general and his staff galloped up to us we gave him three hearty cheers, for we were very glad to see that all our comrades were not killed, as we had thought.

THANKS FROM LORD CHELMSFORD . When he came up Lord Chelmsford took off his helmet and said, , " Men, I thank you for your gallant defence of this post." Lieutenant Chard then introduced the Rev. Mr Smith to him, and the general thanked him for hie conduct through the night. The troops were at this time crossing the river, the artillery and British infantry on the pnnt, Lonsdale's contingent to the left and the mounted men to the right of it. They had lain all the night on the battlefield of Isandula amongst their dead comrades, and had been accompanied as far as the Bashee Valley by the Zulu army, which marched in column two miles to their left.

LOSSES AND CROSSES. There is no doubt that the burning hospital helped us to keep the place, as it was a very dark night. You could, see nothing a couple of yards from you. The h'ght lasted, without any intermission, from a quarter past four p.m. until four a.m., or, roughly, for twelve hours. The Zulus commenced the 'attack with about 4000 men, and there were buried by our Kaffirs 351 Zulus. The general estimated their loss at 1,000 men, as most of the wounded they carried away were afterwards found dead in caves where their friends had left them. Our total strength was 139 officers and men, including sick and wounded in hospital. The actual number fighting would be about 100 men, and our loss in killed and wounded was 29 men. The Victoria Cross was conferred open Lieutenant Chard, Lieutenant Bromhead, Surgeon Reynolds, Rev. Mr Smith, Commissariat-Issuer Dalton, and five or six privates of the 24th, and also on a little Swiss corporal of Lonsdale's contingent named Schiess, who, I think, was afterwards killed in the Boer War"

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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyFri Oct 19, 2012 9:21 am

He certainly knows the details.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyFri Oct 19, 2012 10:19 am

Ray63
He certainly gives the details. Whether he knows them is a different matter. Why things are included that are wrong is also a different matter.
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impi

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PostSubject: Who was the Old Soldier at Rorkes Drift, who gave the story.   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyFri Jan 24, 2014 11:52 pm

I have been looking for this newspaper artical for ages, found it so I will post it.


"This is from and Old Soldier.
Artical link: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=CHP18970513.2.4&cl=&srpos=0&e=-------10--1----0--
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90th

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PostSubject: Forgotten Survivor of RD   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 12:13 am

Certainly a couple of Errors , Rev Smith wasnt awarded a VC , Scheiss died onboard a ship heading to the UK if memory serves me correctly ? , and that was only the last two lines , the unit mentioned , Lonsdales' Horse , underwent a name change and became the 2 / 3rd NNC also from memory , that's where you'll find some of the Corporals listed . I'm sure Julian will reply with a satisfactory answer .  agree He eats this stuff for breakfast !  Salute 
90th
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 1:13 am

2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Anderson, Michael. Corporal. , killed whilst deserting 22 January 1879
Doughty, William. Corporal.
Scammell, Carl. Corporal.
Schiess, Ferdnand Christian. Corporal., awarded Victoria Cross

Who's Muller? Corporal

Wilson, John. Corporal (Not Mentioned in artical)


Who's Muller?
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 1:24 am

I wonder if the Chap is getting his names mixed up. We have


1st Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

Adendorff, James. Lieutenant
Mayer, Jessy H. Corporal.
A native of Mkungo's tribe, killed in action 22 January 1879
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Who was the Old Soldier at Rorkes Drift, who gave the story.   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 5:47 am

http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t5868-any-idea-who-this-soldier-is-he-was-a-sgt-major-at-rd

This was the last time this issue came up. At the time it was inconclusive who this man was or even if he was there. I did spend a lot of time trying to isolate him and couldn't.
One detail he mentioned that swayed me towards discounting the article was that he mentions the tents being in front of the mission, they were I believe in the rear, behind the cookhouse. The front of the station was an orchard.

The article however still has absolutely no bearing on Jenkins whatso ever. The fact that its being used to intimate that he knew more about RD than Jenkins is a bit of a Red Herring. There are many of the soldiers that never uttered a word about RD.

For direct comments by Davis Jenkins on Rorkes Drift I would suggest you research the letter written by him to his father, who forwarded it to the 'Brecon County Times' 26th April 1879. It pretty much puts it all there, his roll what happened etc.

There has been a move to discredit News Paper reports, but if this one from impi is to be acceptable then so should others.

................I was that day at a place called Rorkes Drift.

Pretty conclusive statement of fact. He goes on to describe in detail what happened, times, actions and re actions.

Cheers

PS. The writer was definitely at RD at some point, far to much info there otherwise. A lot of the wrong points could be attributed to time and memory but there are a few points that say he was given info from another source
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: impi's Melbourne Argus post   Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 9:14 am

I've just written a long reply to impi's post about the Melbourne Argus article, only to find the thread is relocked and I've been unable to post it. I'm not going to attempt to reconstruct it.

Essentially, I never dismissed this newspaper report out of hand. Instead I, like springbok, investigated it thoroughly. It does not cross-refer and has no corroborative evidence (unlike Jenkins's 14+ pieces of evidence). So, on p. 93 of ES referring to the Anderson anecdote I wrote about the report as follows:

An anonymous account from an Australian newspaper of Rorke’s Drift (which may or may not be true) implies
that Anderson came from “the Old Country”, Corp.Wilson N.N.C., if he were indeed the author, had served in the
British Army, and Daniels was an American, (‘The Defence of Rorke’s Drift’ by An Old Soldier, The Press, 13th
May 1897, Vol. LIV, issue 9726, p. 2, taken from the Melbourne Argus). The account cannot at present be
verified as written by a genuine Rorke’s Drift defender although the author was almost certainly at the Drift at
some point.

And that remains my view.

At least I have read the argument (I don't use the word 'evidence', as there is any) against Jenkins. My detractors have not as much as glanced at the evidence I presented for him.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 11:58 am

Dave,

In answer to your question Who's Muller?

There was a Corporal H.J.H. Müller in the 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent, according to Laband & Thompson's The Buffalo Border 1879...

John Y.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 12:25 pm

As springy says, there were many soldiers who fought at RD that never uttered a word about it, however, there were others who came back to RD with Chelmsford and then went on to 'claim fame' by saying they were at RD and making it appear as they were there during the battle, and there were also others who 'told tall tales' in the pubs etc. Some of these sort of tales could well have been picked up by newspaper reporters of the day and published as 'fact' by those newspapers, and of course the people reading them would no doubt believe them. But with better research and with what we know today, many of these tales can be classed as being 'old soldiers yarns', and this may well fall into that catagory. The 'old soldier' does not appear to say who he is, and until things like this are proved either way, it might be best to treat this sort of thing with a little caution before falling into the trap of believing it all.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 1:04 pm

John Young wrote:
Dave,

In answer to your question Who's Muller?

There was a Corporal H.J.H. Müller in the 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent, according to Laband & Thompson's The Buffalo Border 1879...

John Y.

Thanks John. Do we know roughly where he would have been and under who's command, as he wasn't at RD?
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Any article written by "an old soldier" can be dismissed as completely worthless in much the same way as any comment attributed to "a friend of" in any tabloid today!
Most likely, entirely fabrictaed by the reporter or editor.

Dis-missed!
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 5:57 pm

And what do think, got JW to write an article about a Brave Fugitive? 
Let me think? That's it a newspaper article. 

Perhaps we should take your comments seriously and dismiss the brave fugitive publication as worthless! You need to study mo 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 7:42 pm

Kopie a bit extreme.
Don't forget the article that Barry posted, and indeed at least another two from Natal papers were by Rev Smith, anonymously.
And impi is quite correct the motivation for Julians essay was a reference on this forum to a quote from a newspaper by Ian Knight.

Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 8:01 pm

Springbok, close, but the original paper clip was posted by LH found in papers past. And it did lead to a very interesting discussion! With an excellent out, in the form of JW publication! And if I remember correctly JW & LH was trying to find out who "Yankee Dan" was. Not sure how far they got with their research?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Dave,

Checking Terry Sole's book For God, Queen and Colony he has Müller in 2nd Battalion, 3rd Regiment, N.N.C., but unlike most of that battalion there is no note as to his service prior the battalion being disbanded. Commandant E.R. Cooper was in command of the battalion.

John Y.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySat Jan 25, 2014 9:26 pm

John, came across this. Could it be the same Muller? There is a connection with Ardendroff, and Rorkes drift.


"In an article published in German in the"Illustrierter Süd Afrikanischer Volks-Kalender 1913" Lt C.I.M. Müller writes on his personal memoirs of Capt Schermbrucker and the Caffrarian Vanguard. He describes the recruitment of soldiers in Caffraria and mentions Lt Pogge and Lt Adendorff as his two Coy Commanders. Having arrived in Durban towards the end of November 1878, they then marched towards Utrecht. On page 267 of the Calender he writes and I translate:"We reached Lüneburg on the 23rd December and prepared ourselves for the coming Christmas days. I took charge of the small Fort with a section of my troop, while Lt Pogge, with the rest of the troop camped near the Church Lager. Capt Schermbrucker also had his tent near the Church Lager. Lt Adendorff left us on route to join a native contingent under Commandant Lonsdale. He took part in the defense of Rorke's Drift on the 22-23 January 1879 and excelled himself."

Source:Subject: Re: Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.   Mon 12 Jul 2010 - 10:08 posted by Brett.
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 2:03 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
I've just written a long reply to impi's post about the Melbourne Argus article, only to find the thread is relocked and I've been unable to post it.  I'm not going to attempt to reconstruct it.  

Essentially, I never dismissed this newspaper report out of hand.  Instead I, like springbok, investigated it thoroughly.  It does not cross-refer and has no corroborative evidence (unlike Jenkins's 14+ pieces of evidence).  So, on p. 93 of ES referring to the Anderson anecdote I wrote about the report as follows:

An anonymous account from an Australian newspaper of Rorke’s Drift (which may or may not be true) implies  
   that Anderson came from “the Old Country”, Corp.Wilson N.N.C., if he were indeed the author, had served in the    
   British Army, and Daniels was an American, (‘The Defence of Rorke’s Drift’ by An Old Soldier, The Press, 13th
   May 1897, Vol. LIV, issue 9726, p. 2, taken from the Melbourne Argus).  The account cannot at present be
   verified as written by a genuine Rorke’s Drift defender although the author was almost certainly at the Drift at  
   some point.

And that remains my view.

At least I have read the argument (I don't use the word 'evidence', as there is any) against Jenkins.  My detractors have not as much as glanced at the evidence I presented for him.


Julian's post merged into this topic!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 8:42 am

impi
JW deferred to me in researching the Pontsman, Daniels. Unfortunatly there is very little on him.
His Initial was A.
In General Order no 85 dated 14the April he was given a pay award of 15 pound a month plus free rations. Presumably as a reward for services at RD.
Caleb Wood mentions him as a 'diminutive man.
He is also reported as borrowing Spaldings sword and standing under the barricade waiting for a Zulu to come over. One or two did only to be met with 'the little man wielding the sword.'
A further comment was of him saying 'nows whos big enough to be a soldier' ( words to that effect )
In addition a native was captured at the end of the battle and Daniels being Zulu speaking was brought along to question him. he did so with much sword wielding and aggression, frightening the poor captive so much he collapsed.

And that's it Im afraid. There was no mention any where of the Yankee Dan name apart from your Old Soldier.

To surmise though: he was an experienced Ponts man so would assume he had been working else where in Natal doing that sort of work, I say Natal specifically because he was fluent in the Zulu language. The terminology used when Caleb describes his conversation could lead to a view that he was Irish, but that's really reaching.

Cheers
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 9:06 am

Dave,

I doubt very much whether Corporal H. Müller and Lieutenant C. Müller are one and the same person, as Lt. Müller served in 2nd Battalion, 1st Regiment N.N.C. prior to transferring to the Kaffrarian Rifles/Vanguard.

John Y.
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kopie



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 10:13 am

springbok9 wrote:
Kopie a bit extreme.
Don't forget the article that Barry posted, and indeed at least another two from Natal papers were by Rev Smith, anonymously.
And impi is quite correct the motivation for Julians essay was a reference on this forum to a quote from a newspaper by Ian Knight.

Cheers

OK impi, springbok, apologies, perhaps a bit extreme, agreed.

It is never helpful when articles are written anonymously or third hand, as it leads to exactly this: the reader trying to find out who the author was in order to evaluate the validity of the article. It leaves us guessing. And we can't guess history.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 3:50 pm

Would agree with that! But it all depends on what's written. I agree with JW, whoever gave that account, must have been at RD. I did notice he states Spalding left on the 21st to chaseup the reinforcements, and it was Rainforth not Upcher?
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 3:58 pm

I thought it might be useful to describe how one approaches an account like The Old Soldier’s in order to assess authenticity.

An account involves a permutation of all of these:
Named/anonymous
Verifiably attributable/unattributable
Factually correct/factually correct with errors/ factually incorrect

Errors may be the result of old age, memory lapse, inclusion of hearsay, genuine mistake, self-aggrandizement, deliberate lies, and late composition.

Once you establish a base for the account you can proceed to find other accounts for cross-reference and corroboration in order to establish authenticity (genuine of fake).

For example:

The Brave Fugitive was assessed by some other historians as an anonymous, verifiably attributable, factually correct account and attributed to Lieut. Adendorff. On closer inspection it became obvious once it was cross-referenced to other sources mentioning that officer that it could not be Adendorff. When it was cross-referenced to other accounts mentioning Conductor Hall, it became obvious that it was him and that the account was genuine.

The Jenkins 3rd letter is a named, verifiably attributable, factually correct account. When it was cross-referenced to 14 other major (and several minor) sources, it became obvious that it was genuine. It actually serves as an object lesson for certain forum members, if they ever choose to read it, of how historians go about creating a case from primary sources’ known facts and logic instead of speculation and ignorance. It also shows how one piece of evidence can cross-refer to others for corroborative purposes in order to strengthen a case.

The Old Soldier letter is an anonymous, unattributable, basically factually correct (with errors) account. It cannot be cross-referenced with any other accounts for corroboration. The likely author, if genuine, is, by a process of elimination, Corp. Wilson (but that cannot be proven) and it has a ring of authenticity about it with mention of Yankee Dan and particulars about Anderson (Dave – his initial was W. for William not M.) – none of which can be verified. The author’s implied senior NCO rank is not true (but may be self-aggrandizement) and there are other more obvious errors. A possible conclusion is that the author had been at RD himself but not at its defence and knew some of the personalities involved. Once in Australia nearly 30 years later, he could pretty much claim what he liked without fear of contradiction (but why remain anonymous?) hence the errors. Another outcome is that it is genuine but has errors because of memory lapse. At this moment it cannot be taken as genuine until corroborated by known sources. The good thing about it is that, if genuine, the Old Soldier’s account is interesting and informative so it makes it worthwhile continuing to search for those corroborative sources.
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 8:42 pm

Master class, of deductive reasoning.  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptySun Jan 26, 2014 11:53 pm

Didn't Commandant Browne go down under for while, sounds like one of his stories?
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 1:04 am

As a little bit of context to this story.
The Melbourne Argus article was published on 21/4/1897. The Albany Banner and Wodonga Express, (NSW), carried the same article on 23/4/1897 and was, as far as I can see the only other newspaper to do so.
Prior to that from mid March 1897 a considerable number of Australian newspapers had carried pieces on the Zulu War by R Groves, formerly of the Buffs and several had reported that Chard VC was ill and under surgery at the beginning of April.
However two years earlier the Evening News, (also from NSW), included an article about Rorke's Drift, titled "FOR VALOR" which was signed simply "Old Soldier," Military Road, Mosman.
It's content is very similar to that of the Melbourne Argus piece and mentions Yankee Dan, etc and is, presumably, by the same person.

Evidently 'Old Soldier' was writing in response to an earlier piece in the News about the Victoria Cross, which included a paragraph on Rorke's Drift and the Zulu War.
Over the course of the next year the Evening News carried regular articles from 'Old Soldier,' detailing his personal reminiscences of the Zulu War in particular, but he also wrote pieces on his involvement during the Ashantee War, and several on the Boer War of 1880-1881 -

27/4/1895 For Valour - Rorke's Drift - mentions Yankee Dan (signed Old Soldier, Military Road, Mosman)
4/5/1895 Ulundi - The Great Battle with the Zulus (By one who was there) [Old Soldier, Military Road]
11/5/1895 The Japanese - How they figured in War with Britain (By Old Soldier)
18/5/1895 Isandula - The Great Battle with the Zulus - How the Field Looked [Old Soldier]
25/5/1895 For Valor - How Redvers Buller got his VC - a Zulu Victory [Old Soldier]
1/6/1895 Kambula - A Reminiscence of the Zulu War - General Wood's Victory [Old Soldier]
15/6/1895 Colonel Shervinton - The Malagasy Commander in Chief - Threats from France
(contains a comment from 'Old Soldier')
22/6/1895 The Boer Victory [Old Soldier]
6/7/1895 The Queen's Shilling - Recollections of Recruiting by an Old Soldier
10/8/1895 Cashiered - The Trooper's Story (by Old Soldier)
7/9/1895 The Duke - Britain's retiring Chief [Old Soldier]
14/9/1895 The Prince Imperial - How he fell [by Old Soldier]
5/10/1895 'Old Soldier' writes a piece concerning news of John Dunn
2/11/1895 A Note Goat (by Old Soldier) [Ashantee 1873-74]
16/11/1895 Ashantee - The Former Expedition - A difficult country (by Old Soldier)
4/1/1896 The Transvaal [Old Soldier]
11/1/1896 The Boers - The Former War - How they fought at Laing's Nek [Old Soldier]
18/1/1896 The Old War - The Boers at Ingogo River [Old Soldier]
25/1/1896 The Old War - The Battle of Majuba Hill [Old Soldier]
1/2/1896 The Old War - The Transvaal after Majuba Hill [Old Soldier]

As far as I can see there are no further articles from 'Old Soldier.' for about a year, but then in October 1897 The Evening News began to carry pieces from it's correspondent in Capetown who signed himself 'Old Soldier.' These regular letters and news of South Africa continued throughout the Boer War of 1899-1902.

As to his identity....  well taken from what information 'Old Soldier' gives in his articles we could assume that he was a  former NCO of the Royal Engineers, born mid 1840s. He served in Japan 1863-64, Ashantee 1873-74...and was later present at Rorke's Drift, recovery of the Queen's Colour, Hlobane, Khambula and recovery of the body of the Prince Imperial and final battle at Ulundi and Basutoland 1880.

I know that Corporal John Wilson's name has been mentioned as a possible candidate as the author of the Argus article. Interestingly there was at least one John Wilson serving in the Royal Engineers in 1871, born 1843....according to the Census Returns...I have not looked for his WO97 yet so am unable to say whether he served in Ashantee etc

'Old Soldier' gave his address as Military Road, Mosman. Perhaps of interest and worthy of further investigation therefore is that in 1930, one Howard English, a well known Queensland businessman, former local politician, horse owner and 'defender of Rorke's Drift' (according to his obituaries), died in Mosman, NSW.........
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 1:17 am

24th, Maori, a clue!  Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 1:24 am

Lee, Howard English, fascinating, defender!?..how far have you got
with him.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 9:33 am

Lee
Very well done Lee. If it helps, I searched through ships' passenger lists from SA to Oz 1879-85 and found nothing under John Wilson - but maybe that was too early. Perhaps he went out in the late 80s/early 90s - IF it was him, of course!!!
xhosa
Not a masterclass, just standard methodology in initial historical research.
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 9:51 am

Wink   Salute 
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 11:37 am

Let's hope this is not our old soldier.

LOCAL AND GENERAL.
Wanganui Chronicle, Volume XXIX, Issue 12287, 27 August 1897, Page 2

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 11:48 am

Lee
I'd not read The Argus 18.5.95 article you noted from Old Soldier on 'Isandula'. I looked it up but can't find it in on any page in that issue. Did you give the wrong date or have I missed it somehow?
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 12:53 pm

Hi Julian

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108090736?searchTerm=isanddla&searchLimits=

Hope this works

Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 2:19 pm

Lee
Many thanks.  It did work.  My word, this Old Soldier doesn't do himself any favours if he wants people to believe in him, does he?  The narrative is sound enough.  It jogs along but with nothing that can't be gleaned from newspapers, or from having known the personalities years before - but Darkie Andrews, Sergt. McCabe, Sergt. Bryant, Captain Smith-on-the-saddle are all fictional.  He's starting to sound more like a Captain Windbag doing his old soldier routine.  Interesting too, that he should bother to write that he'd met Durnford on the Helpmekaar-Rorke's Drift road at 9 a.m. that morning...it adds a touch of realism but seriously, what would an NNC NCO in charge of natives working on the ponts be doing halfway to Helpmekaar that morning???  It actually spoils the other RD account...because if he was riding to Helpmekaar on the morning of the 22nd, how would he have got back in time to fight at RD??  And there's still nothing to corroborate his presence at RD or not.  (Deliberately?)  Galling!


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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 3:34 pm

I believe his true name is Sir Harry Paget Flashman
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.    Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.  EmptyMon Jan 27, 2014 10:11 pm

Well whoever he is, he knows a hell of a lot about the battle?
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