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 Durnford was he capable.2

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:59 pm

tasker
My memory was at fault. There is no record that Crealock read back to Chelmsford the orders he (Crealock) issued for Durnford. He may of course have done it but there is no record that he did.
Ray
Chelmsford famously told Clery to instruct Durnford to move up to Isandhlwana. Crealock asked from the next tent whether he should not be the one to do it and Chelmsford assented. The record of this comes from Clery himself.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:05 pm

So the mess-up commenced at middle management level...
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:15 pm

OLDHIST
Well, you might say that. According to Clery, Chelmsford asked him (originally) to order Durnford up to Isandhlwana camp but this is the very thing that was not conveyed precisely by Crealock to Durnford. (One must assume, as was said a few posts ago, that Durnford would automatically take command once he'd arrived at the camp. Nevertheless, the point remains that he was not specifically ordered up to Isandhlwana AND TO REMAIN THERE [my capitals].) The fact that Durnford was recorded by Cochrane on receiving the order that they were to march to Isandhlwana in no way hints at what was going through Durnford's mind. He was simply stating the direction they were to take.
I've got this lousy bug that's going around - has anyone else got it? Stomach cramps, temperature, shivering, headache, acheing joints, tiredness. Does anyone know how long it lasts?
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:30 pm

So in-hind sight, we should be concentrating on Clery and Crealock...
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Dave
Well, I don't know about "concentrating" on them but they certainly should enter into the picture. More pointedly one could argue that Chelmsford should have double-checked what had been written to whom (as you all know he certainly forgot to check what orders had been left for Pulleine, so he may have done the same for Durnford). In all other respects Chelmsford seems to have micro-managed which makes it all the more surprising. Perhaps it was a case of 1.30 in the morning and wanting another hour in bed!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:44 pm

Or perhaps he had a lot on his mind, what with Dartnell requiring assistance.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:48 pm

Very true, his mind may have been working overtime planning the next few hours on the Mangeni, not looking back.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:33 pm

As anyone got that, book Ulundi was talking about Chelmsford letters ect. If anyone has this book is there anything directed to Crealock around the 22nd Jan or near as.....
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:48 pm

His tent was next door. He wouldn't be writing him letters!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:14 pm

There was some talk around March, that Crealock might receive a letter from the Duke of Cambridge informing him that he was to take over command from Chelsford. Wether this is true or not I can't be sure..
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:49 pm

Dave wrote:
Or perhaps he had a lot on his mind, what with Dartnell requiring assistance.

Dave, Julian, you may be on to something!

1.30am, looking forward towards Mangeni and assisting Dartnell, minds not really focussing on the boring old camp.

All so very obvious, all so very real life, all so very human, all so very plausible!

Perhaps this was in actual fact, why the orders were so vague/ lacking in clarity. Almost an after thought. It is a theory!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:49 pm

Thanks, it's a virulent bug, I'll tell you that, coming up to 48 hours.
Ulundi
I've never heard of what you describe - it would seem very unlikely.
Tasker
I've always tended towards this view. The trouble is that it's all very theoretical and non-evidential. It is worth exploring though.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:32 pm

Posted on behalf of Ulundi. Extract from Ian Becketts book. Ulundi refers to the lower section of the page.

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:06 pm

Littlehands post above. Source: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:40 am

ulundi
I understand now. There was no intimation that Crealock might receive a letter from the Duke of Cambridge informing him that he was to take over command from Chelmsford (that sounds rather peremptory, a punishment even). However a situation in which Chelmsford fell ill or was unable to continue due to exertion was foreseen such that Crealock or Clifford (in fact, the latter) might succeed to his duties.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:20 am

Ulundi hopefully this will explain how I see where it went wrong...

Extracts from the court of enquiry. Clery.

"The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I"

"I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp"


Chelmsford originally tells Clery to write to Durnford but then changes his mind. That said, Clery still repeats in writing to Pulleine what he was originally suppose to have written to Durnford. " Strengthen the camp"


Glyn. " I corroborate Major Clery's statement"

Crealock.
1. Soon after 2 A.M. on the 22nd January I received instructions from the Lieutenant-General to send a written order to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., commanding No. 2 Column, to the following effect (I copied it in my note-book which was afterwards lost): " Move up to Sandhlwana Camp at once with all your mounted men and Rocket Battery—take command of it. Why would Chelmsford change his mind, from strengthen to command?

I am accompanying Colonel Glyn, who is moving off at once to attack Matyana and a Zulu force said to be 12 or 14 miles off, and at present watched by Natal Police, Volunteers, and Natal Native Contingent. Colonel Glyn takes with him 2-24th Regiment, 4 guns R.A., and Mounted  Infantry."
2. I was. not present during the conversation between Major Clery, Staff Officer to Colonel Glyn, and the Lieutenant-General, but the evening before, about 8.30 P.M., on this officer asking the Lieutenant-General if the 1-24th " Were to reinforce Major Dartnell in the Magane Valley," he said " No."

The General received, I believe through Colonel Glyn, a subsequent representation which caused the fresh orders at 2 A.M. the 22nd, and the orders to Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford. In fact it was Glyn, who made representation to Chelmsford to go to Dartnell's assistance. And let's not forget Glyn was in command of no 3 column. Would this had not put Chelmsford in an awkward position, especially if Dartnell's column had been wiped out.


3. Lieutenant-Colonel Durnford, R.E., was not under Colonel Glyn's command at this time; he had been moved from his original position before Middle Drift, with some 250 Mounted Natives, 200 of Sikalis footmen, the Rocket Battery, and one battalion of the 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent to the Umsinga District, on the Lieutenant-General's seeing the ease with which the Natal frontier could be passed in that part of the Buffalo River. The Lieutenant-General's order was therefore sent to him by me, On receiving the order he would have no longer been acting indepentdantly being the only Head Quarter Staff Officer (except the Aide-de-Camps) with him. These details formed part of No. 2 Column under his command.

4. I sent the orders to him by Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, of 95th Foot, with directions to leave as soon as he could see his way. I expected him to find Colonel Durnford at the Bashee Valley; it was delivered and acted upon.

5. Although I was not aware at that time of the Lieutenant-General's grounds for ordering the troops from camp, yet it was evident to me that he wished to close up to the camp all outlying troops, and thus strengthen it. although this is speculation we now find Crealock using the original word strengthen He would naturally also consider that the presence of an officer of Colonel Durnford's rank and corps would prove of value in the defence of a camp, if it should be attacked. As half the column was on its way to assist Dartnell, it makes sense to reinforce the camp.

6. The Lieutenant-General had himself noticed mounted men in one direction (our left front) on the 21st. A patrol of the Mounted Infantry had found another small body of the enemy in our front, and Major Dartnell, we knew, had a strong force before him on our right front. It was evident to me that the Zulu forces were in our neighbourhood, and the General had decided, on the evening of the 21st, to make a reconnaissance to our left front.
7. It did not occur to me that the troops left in camp were insufficient for its defence. Six Companies British Infantry, 2 guns, 4 Companies Natal Contingent, 250 Mounted Natives, 200 Sikalis men, and details of Mounted Corps appeared to me—had I been asked—a proper force for the defence of the camp and its stores.
8. I subsequently heard Major Clery state that the had left precise instructions to Lieutenant-Lionel Pulleine "to defend the camp." Such instructions would, I consider, as a matter of course, be binding on Colonel Durnford on his assuming command of the camp. As discussed previously. We know Durnford took over command from Pulliene, some members have stated this would have been army protocol, ? So for me is reason for leaving doesn't hold up
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable    Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:44 am

Hi All .
This is all becoming rather confusing a little like Rocket Science :lol: . The Crux of the matter is , Durnford was never told to strengthen or reinforce the camp in any of the orders he received , he was told to MOVE to the camp as far as I can see and thats it , nothing else . Happy to be corrected if some one can show me where it's written that Durnford is to Strengthen or take command of the camp . Fairly certain that I and others have posted what Durnford was to do according to his ambiguous orders .
Cheers 90th.
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:29 pm

I don't think it's confusing. It just trying to understand why Crelock dispatched an order which he had claimed to have used the word take command. When infact we know he didn't. As LH points out if Durnford had received the order from Clery, he would have known what his position was when he arrived at the camp. And the order which Clery was told to send makes sense. The problem as I see it lays with Crealock.. And some serious consideration should be given to the fact, that it was Glyn that make representation to Chelmsford to assist Dartnell, especially where Chelmsford said No!! So what did Glyn say to change his mind. I beleive the first order that was supposed to have been sent by Clery was misinterpreted by Crealock. Which makes sense when it come to the argument between Durnford and Pulliene with regards to who was in command.

"I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp"

Pulliene was expect Durnford to strengthen the camp, not take command.. Why he gave in to Durnford was Probaly down to army protocol, that was until Melville remained Durnford of Pulliene 's orders. To defend the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:44 pm

Some good. Points there.

Another for consideration. Crealock..

"I subsequently heard Major Clery state that the had left precise instructions to Lieutenant-Lionel Pulleine "to defend the camp." Such instructions would, I consider, as a matter of course, be binding on Colonel Durnford on his assuming command of the camp."

Why would Crelock mention this, if he stated that he had order Durnford to take command.. Possibly validates you point on why the argument insued between Durnford and Pulliene.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:52 pm

I'm just wondering now, what flack Chelmsford would have got, if he didn't assist Dartnell, after Glyn made representation that they should assist Dartnell. Based on Dartnell getting wiped out.

Pullienes orders from Clery are quite clear with regards to what he expected Durnford to do when he arrived.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:07 pm

Agree some good points... Salute

A report from Crealock was supposed to have been published, I can't find it, can anyone help she'd some light on this.

"HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1880s → 1880 → February 1880 → 26 February 1880 → Commons Sitting → QUESTIONS.
SOUTH AFRICA—THE ZULU WAR— GENERAL CREALOCK'S REPORT.

HC Deb 26 February 1880 vol 250 cc1437-8 1437

SIR EDWARD WATKIN asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Report of General Crealock 1438 upon the operations of the First Division in the Zulu War was not forwarded home by Sir Garnet Wolseley last summer; whether such Report was not printed, with maps attached, last autumn; and, if so, why the Report and maps were excluded from recent Papers, and, in fact, suppressed, until a Question was asked in the House; and, whether he can give a date before which the Report and maps will be issued to Members, in pursuance of the promise of the Secretary of State for War?

SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH General Crealock's Report was duly forwarded home by Sir Garnet Wolseley, and was received in this country last autumn. Being very voluminous, it was printed at the time for the use of the War Office, and, being so printed, was marked "Confidential." A copy was forwarded to the Colonial Office, from which, by mistake, the word "Confidential" had not been erased. I had arranged last spring with my right hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Stanley), that if among the Papers forwarded by him to the Colonial Office there were any which, in his opinion, should not be published, they should be marked "Confidential;" because, being the channel through which despatches to the War Office were presented to Parliament, I had often felt a difficulty in deciding whether Papers of a professional or technical character were fit for publication or not. Therefore, as this Report was so marked, of course I did not publish it. I trust the hon. Member will feel, after this explanation, that his use of the word "suppression" has not been justified. The printers inform me that the Report will be published in a week."
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PostSubject: Durnford, was he capable   Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:27 pm

Hi All,
This argument is a perennial and is interesting because of the many gaps in the knowlege available, However two points;

1) Dartnell never asked for assistance, he merely reported the enemy strength confronting his column and requested instructions. He was ordered to retire and to camp the night at a nearby location.

2) What is germane in considering Durnford's actions was that at the time he passed throught the camp all was quiet there ( Ron Locke succinctly described the scene in the Isandlwana camp on 22/01 as been akin to that of a quite English village on a Sunday morning) no enemy was in sight, and nothing was being attacked, so there was nothing to defend. However, he is told in the camp upon arrival that his GOC could be under pressure in the hills, so he decided, to give assistance where it was likely most needed, and he headed out. In terms of this he has no case to answer.

regards

barry
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:00 pm

Dartnell had sent off messengers to Lord Chelmsford that he had marked the Zulus down in a kloof, and asked for two companies of infantry to be sent- out as a support, and that he would attack the Zulus in the morning.

Clery received a message at 1.30 A.M. on the 22nd, from Major Dartnell to say that the enemy was in greater numbers than when he last reported, and that he did not think it prudent to attack unless reinforced by two or three companies of the 24th Regiment.

So if that's not asking for assistance,Then please explain?

Barry the problem was commencing outside the camp not inside. Might pay for you to read TMFH.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:32 pm

barry wrote:
1) Dartnell never asked for assistance, he merely reported the enemy strength confronting his column and requested instructions. He was ordered to retire and to camp the night at a nearby location.

Barry

He asked for several companies of the 24th to reinforce him, Lt Walsh i think, carried the order back.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:58 pm

What a superb feat that was! I've never looked to see if he was mentioned in despatches.
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PostSubject: Durnford, was he capable   Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:02 pm

Hi Liitlehand,

Thanks for querying . In respones I quote from " The History of the Natal Mounted Police" by H.P Holt, forwarded by Maj Gen J .G. Dartnell KCB himself and edited by Col Clarke; page 54, 3rd para;

In order not to lose touch with the Zulu's , Maj Dartnell decided to bivouac with the NMP, volunteers and Native Contingent on the ground he had taken up , and two staff officers , Maj Gossett and Captn Buller , returned to the main camp to report the presence of the enemy and to ask approval for the bivoauc . In many accounts of the Zulu War it is stated that he (Dartnell) appealed for reinforcements , but this is incorrect. He ( Dartnell) had decided to attack the impi at dawn , adding ( as an aside ) that a company or two of the 24th Regiment might instil confidence in the Native Contingent , but whether they came or not , the attack would be made at 6 a.m.

Now as the works referred to above is the definitive history of the NMP I would suggest that any other versions of this event are speculation or another case of some historian or other filling in gaps.
Words in parethesis are mine.

regards

barry

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.   Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:33 pm

I have to agree with 90th on this.

Col Durnford had orders sent to him on the 19th, telling him that he would be required to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD against the Matyanas. He then receives other orders on the 22nd (delivered by Smith-Dorrian), telling him to move up to iSandlwana, there is nothing in the orders telling him to take command or assist Pulleine, so as far as he is concerned he is moving up to iSandlwana to be able to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD.

On his arrival at the camp, he is given confusing reports of zulus in the area, he sends out scouts and troops to try to get better information about these reported zulus in the area. When he gets the report that a large body of zulus are heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he has no other option but to act on this report, and try to find out where they are going. His orders of the 19th are that he is to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD.

For all Col Durnford knows, the large body of zulus heading towards Chelmsford, might be trying to outflank, cut off or attack him, and the Matyanas might also be on the move to confront Chelmsford.

So, unlike the slow thinking Pulleine, Col Durnford does not dawdle when he gets this report, he has to try to find out what these zulus are up to, and where they are going, and by heading off towards Chelmsford, he is indeed obeying his orders of the 19th, he is attempting to do as he was ordered to do, and that was to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:51 pm

Quote :
Now as the works referred to above is the definitive history of the NMP
who was the author.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:57 pm

Martin. You are missing what Littlehand & Ulundi are trying to say.

We know what the offical order told him to do. But Pulliene had also received an order from Clery saying that he was in command, and that Durnford was on his way to strengthen the camp. So as far as Pulliene was concerned and quietly rightly, Durnford was there to help defend the camp, not take command or leave.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:28 pm

The book Barry refers to Is the Mounted Police of Natal ( I think? ) by H.P. Holt. Publish 1913. Quite a while after the event.

"
Quote :
Now as the works referred to above is the definitive history of the NMP I would suggest that any other versions of this event are speculation or another case of some historian or other filling in gaps"

And if this is Barrie's mind-set then it can't be debated. Which is entirely his choice!!.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:14 pm

littlehand wrote:
Some good. Points there.

Another for consideration. Crealock..

"I subsequently heard Major Clery state that the had left precise instructions to Lieutenant-Lionel Pulleine "to defend the camp." Such instructions would, I consider, as a matter of course, be binding on Colonel Durnford on his assuming command of the camp."

Why would Crelock mention this, if he stated that he had order Durnford to take command.. Possibly validates you point on why the argument insued between Durnford and Pulliene.


I would consider a member of Chelmsford's staff to be completely loyal to the good Lord and say whatever it took to paint their master in a good light.
I would consider an officer of the 24th to be so, likewise, and always be aiming to paint his regimental colleagues in a good light.
Statements from LC's staff or officers of the 24th can never be considered as independant witness statements or entirely unbiased. Certain small details will be forgotten; other small details may, all of a sudden be remembered!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:18 pm

If we all thought that, this thread wouldn't have been started. But i know what you mean. But in reality each and everyone done, what we do today. Look after number one.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:24 pm

Just being realistic.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:34 pm

Tasker you a likely candidate.
There’s you sitting in command at Isandlwana. You receive written instructions informing you that Colonel Durnford had been written to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. Would you hand over command to Durnford, albeit you have been order to take command of the camp in the absence of Col: Glyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:42 pm

LH. Colonel Durnford wasnt ordered strengthen the camp?
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:54 pm

impi.

I think that a lot of people are missing the point with regards to these orders.

Bvt Lt Col Pulleine was ordered to DEFEND THE CAMP at iSandlwana.

Bvt Col Durnford was ordered to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD.

The big misunderstanding comes into it because of others (Clery and Crealock), getting involved in what SHOULD have been, and what WAS written in these orders.

Chelmsford should have personally seen to it that the correct orders were written and sent to these officers, but he didn't, his mind most likely elsewhere (with Dartnell and attacking the zulus at Mangani).

When Durnford arrives at the camp, he becomes the senior officer, and it is therefor ASSUMED by others that he will take command, however, his orders do not say that he is to take command, nor do they say that he is to assist, reinforce or to help Pulleine, so as far as Durnford is concerned, he is going to the camp, not to take over command, not to assist, not to reinforce or hold Pulleine's hand, and not to stay at the camp, but he would have expected to pick up fresh orders left at the camp in the care of Pulleine, and then get on his way to SUPPORT CHELMSFORD, as that is what his orders of the 19th ordered him to do.



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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:58 pm

I personally wouldn't have voluntarily handed over so to speak as I'd have already been carrying out my duties they way I wanted to, but if the senior officer who'd arrived told me he was taking over, I'd have had no choice.

I reckon Pulleine would have been only too happy to hand over command. (He hadn't exactly been an enthusiastic, busy bee before Durnford arrived).
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:59 pm

I know that!!!!

OK Take a deep breath!!!!

If Clery had sent the message he was supposed to have sent to Col: Durnford, before the task was given to Crealock, Durnford would have received this.

Extracts from the court of enquiry. Clery.

"The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp"

If Durnford had received this, he would have had a clear understanding of what was required of him..

However this message was never sent to Durnford, because Chelmsford told Crealock to sent it, but for whatever reason Crealock sent his own message.

Clery then states:
"I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp"

So as far as Pulleine was concern Durnford had received what Clery had told him. In short "Strengthen" the camp. Pulleine was not expecting Durnford to take command. And quite rightly.








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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:00 pm

Agree with Martin. Salute
And as Martin knows, when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:06 pm

This is where i think it went wrong..The confusion so to say...

Clery:
The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I"

This is what Crealock should have sent to Durnford as instucted by Chelmsford:
Write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp. ??????
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:19 pm

Quote :
So as far as Pulleine was concern Durnford had received what Clery had told him. In short "Strengthen" the camp. Pulleine was not expecting Durnford to take command.

And this could possibly have caused the lack of co-operation between the two officers on the field. Forcing Durnford to make his deceision to leave. Who's knows...
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:27 pm

Quote :
Durnford is concerned, he is going to the camp, not to take over command, not to assist, not to reinforce or hold Pulleine's hand, and not to stay at the camp, but he would have expected to pick up fresh orders left at the camp in the care of Pulleine,


Martin you talk as though Durnford had nothing to do with Isandlwana. You are assuming the only connection Durnford had with Isandlwana was as stop over to collect orders that he thought were waiting for him. You seem to be over looking the reports that had been coming in over the last 5 hours that zulu were in large numbers near the camp. Was it really ok for Durnford to leave because the order he received on the 19th was superseaded by the one he received from SD on the 22nd Jan. Even if it did just say move to the camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:31 pm

Quote :
Agree with Martin.
And as Martin knows, when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

But when you assume command, your on your own.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:40 pm

SD Account: Extract.
At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chelmsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorke's Drift for Colonel Durnford, R.E., who was expected there with reinforcements consisting of native levies. I rode back, 10 miles, arriving at Rorke's Drift just before dawn on the 22nd, and delivered my dispatch. It ought to have been a very jumpy ride, for I was entirely alone and the country was wild and new to me, and the road little better than a track; but pride at being selected to carry an important dispatch and the valour of ignorance (for I only realised next day that the country was infested with hostile Zulus) carried me along without a thought of danger. Colonel Durnford was just moving off with his levies towards Sandspruit (away from Isandhlwana), but on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march.

Why would SD have assumed this is what the order said. Did Durnford tell him. Durnford would have told Spalding where he was going and why.
Or did it just make sense to SD that this would have been the best course of action???
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:55 pm

SD wasn't present when the order was read and also didn't read it, he is assuming.

He handed the order to Henderson who handed it to Durnford, Smith-Dorrien was no where near him.



Cheers
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:14 pm

John.

When Dunford received the order from Henderson (via Smith-Dorrian), to move to the camp, and telling him that Chelmsford would be about 8 miles away preparing to attack the zulus, he would have expected that he was to support Chelmsford in this action, and that there would be further orders waiting for him at the camp.

On his way to the camp he met Chard (on his way back to RD), who told Durnford about zulus in the area. Durnford told him to let the slower moving wagons following him know about this, and arranged for a guard to defend the wagons (just in case zulus approached).

When he arrived at the camp and found that there were no orders waiting for him, he would have refered back to his earlier orders (of the 19th) to support Chelmsford, and would have obeyed them by following on behind Chelmsford to support him. However, when he was informed about all this confusing zulu activity around the camp, he was surprised that Pulleine appeared to have done very little about it in all the time that he had been getting these reports, and so he sent out scouts and troops to try to get better information, and had he known that a vast army of zulus were hidden close by, no doubt he would have taken command and tried to organise some sort of better defences to defend the camp. But then comes the even more confusing reports of zulu movements in the area, and one of these reports says that a large body of zulus are heading in the direction of Chelmsford. He now has to act on this report, he cannot afford to dawdle, to all intents and purposes, these zulus are attempting to outflank, cut off or attack Chelmsford whilst he is still strung out in column, so he has to find out what they are doing and where they are going. So he does what any good officer would do, he tries to find out where the zulus are going in an attempt to protect his General. When he is informed by the carbineer that this is a ploy, and discovers that these zulus are a part of the left horn that is trying to outflank him, he puts up a fighting retreat to the donga, and here he holds his own until his ammo starts to expire and he is again starting to get ourflanked, he then has no other option but to retire back to the camp and try to find the illusive Pulleine, who, it seems, is nowhere to be found.




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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:14 pm

He seems to be quite near the mark, as that was what the original order was supposed to have said "Reinforce"

Would be interested to know, how you know SD wasn't present when the order was read and also didn't read it.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Quote :
When Dunford received the order from Smith-Dorrian to move to the camp, and telling him that Chelmsford would be about 8 miles away preparing to attack the zulus, he would have expected that he was to support Chelmsford in this action, and that there would be further orders waiting for him at the camp.

On his way to the camp he met Chard (on his way back to RD), who told Durnford about zulus in the area. Durnford told him to let the slower moving wagons following him know about this, and arranged for a guard to defend the wagons (just in case zulus approached).

When he arrived at the camp and found that there were no orders waiting for him, he would have refered back to his earlier orders (of the 19th) to support Chelmsford, and would have obeyed them by following on behind Chelmsford to support him. However, when he was informed about all this confusing zulu activity around the camp, he was surprised that Pulleine appeared to have done very little about it in all the time that he had been getting these reports, and so he sent out scouts and troops to try to get better information, and had he known that a vast army of zulus were hidden close by, no doubt he would have taken command and tried to organise some sort of better defences to defend the camp. But then comes the even more confusing reports of zulu movements in the area, and one of these reports says that a large body of zulus are heading in the direction of Chelmsford. He now has to act on this report, he cannot afford to dawdle, to all intents and purposes, these zulus are attempting to outflank, cut off or attack Chelmsford whilst he is still strung out in column, so he has to find out what they are doing and where they are going. So he does what any good officer would do, he tries to find out where the zulus are going in an attempt to protect his General. When he is informed by the carbineer that this is a ploy, and discovers that these zulus are a part of the left horn that is trying to outflank him, he puts up a fighting retreat to the donga, and here he holds his own until his ammo starts to expire and he is again starting to get ourflanked, he then has no other option but to retire back to the camp and try to find the illusive Pulleine, who, it seems, is nowhere to be found.


Martin, this is speculation on your part. The last order stated move to Isandlwana. That's as good as it get. He assumed command we know that, in which case he should have remained in the camp, and directed operations from there not swan off trying to get back in LC's good books.
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PostSubject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:27 pm

Dave wrote:


Would be interested to know, how you know SD wasn't present when the order was read and also didn't read it.

Durnford was away looking for waggons so SD gave it to Henderson who chased after Durnford, Cochrane states
this is think.
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PostSubject: Durnford was he capable.   Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Dave.

It is not speculation at all, it is all there for you to read in various reports, evidence and books. The problem is trying to sift out the facts from all the fiction, supposition and assumpion, and of course, the web of deception and all the lies that were told by Chelmsford and his cronies, to pass the buck onto a very brave but dead Col Durnford, and make him the scapegoat, to protect Chelmsford's rear end, and thereby blacken the name and character of a brave, gallant, and honourable officer.
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