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 Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:17 am

kopie wrote:
OK, let's agree to disagree.
There is more than enough evidence (one primary source Zulu commander, lots of circumstantial) that the Zulus were commencing the attack on the camp on the morning of the 22nd January in any case. I disagree! The evidence shows the Zulu were moving position not attacking.

The original question is, were the attacks at iSandlwana and iNyezane on the 22nd January planned days in advance, or were they brought forward a day, by the opportunity that had presented itself, when Chelmsford split off from the main camp?
There was no contact between iSandlwana and iNyezane so could not have been coordinated on the day, to get info from iSandlwana after 4 in the morning to iNyezane in order for them to attack at 8.30, you would need a pretty fast car/motorbike in todays terms never mind then.

It seems to me that we have but ONE (but significant) piece of primary source evidence that indicates the Zulus were already advancing on the camp on the morning of the 22nd when Raw came upon them.
And that is Mehlokazulu's 2nd witness statement.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:39 am

So, springbok, both attacks were pre-planned to occur simultaneously?
Or both attacks happening at the same time was a coincidence?

What was the distance between the two Zulu forces? (Bear in mind, I can run 10 miles in under 60 minutes and I am just an "above average" club runner). Unlikely that a fleet footed Zulu messnger could have made the distance; but impossible?

Just thinking aloud!



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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:44 am

Not a runner around that going to cover 40 miles in under 4 hours, across country over some really rought terrain and partly through a forest, that's ignoring swimming some pretty big rivers..........in flood.
Kopie you really do need to look at some maps. Try Google Earth its really very good for being able to position relative events. The Google road car has been around the area so you can now get street view of a lot of the areas.

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:08 am

I have always wanted to try the Comrades Marathon.
Perhaps someone should organise the iSandlwana to iNyezane Marathon?
I would DEFINITELY come to that!
I would certainly be among the back end of the pack - but it would be interesting to see the top ten times.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:18 am

I realise I do not know the ground - you do springbok and to a certain extent I am "standing on the shoulders of giants on this forum", as I am not as well read as yourself, littlehand, 90th, admin, julian whybra, xhosa etc in coming up with my theories.
But, perhaps you old dinosaurs are a little too well read. Fresh eyes and all that! Is it time to examine and think through all the possibilities again and not get derailed by what has been written in all those old books?
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:26 pm

Kopie
Try doing the iSandlwana to Fugitives Drift run, its an annual event run by FD Lodge. agree 
Unfortunatly to know where your going you need to know where your coming from and the work that has gone on to eliminate possibilities. Your latest concept for instance that the impi didn't need a lay over point between the Ngwebini valley and the Nyoni ridge. Look at the timing and then tell me how they could get from one to the other, across the swamp through the rocks and still sort themselves back into their correct battalions, cant be done. That research has all been done by "the old dinosaurs" so if you would like to disprove it, be my guest, but do it with fact and a knowledge of what it entails not guesswork. Salute

Your second point about how organised the impi was and how under control flies totally in the face of confirmed testimony, untainted Zulu testimony that is.

If it wasn't for one man, the Zulus would have never have won at iSandlwana.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:48 pm

As I mentioned in the topic 'iSandlwana and Hindsight'. The zulu's had been observed making movements many hours before Raw disturbed them, does this not suggest that they were indeed taking up positions in readiness for attacking the camp? even Ntsingwayo said that they were getting into positions and that some were ordered to advance. I know that advance is not attack, however, it does seem to suggest that they were getting organised and preparing for an attack. A large body of zulu's had been observed on the move, it had been reported to Durnford as 'heading in the direction of LC', this prompted Durnford to find out what they were up to, but it was not known at the time that this was the left horn that was on the move, does this not also suggest that they were getting into position? Raw was scouting over on the hills when he disturbed a large body of them as they were advancing, he opened fire on them and the zulu's appear to have made a charge towards him, so he returned to the camp to report what they had found. Meanwhile, Durnford has moved off from the camp to see what the zulu's reported 'heading in LC's direction' are up to, this turns out to be the left horn, and is forced back towards the camp where he makes a good stand in the donga. All these zulu movements seem to suggest that they were getting themselves into position for an attack on the camp. I think that it is possible that they could not believe their luck to see that Dartnell was miles away at Mangeni, and that LC had gone off with over half the column to join him, leaving the camp un-laagered and a sitting duck prime for attack. Even if the attack was planned for the 23rd, I don't think that Ntsingwayo could turn down a golden opportunty like this, and was indeed organising his men in readiness for an attack on the 22nd, and that it was through the indiscipline of the zulu's that Raw fired upon that prompted the attack to start a little earlier than Ntsingwayo would have wanted, ie; before all the zulu regiments had got themselves properly organised.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:37 pm

and not get derailed by what has been written in all those old books?

Do you mean History. Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:59 pm

sorry kopie, meant to say, i will check the stuart
archive over the week end. Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:31 pm

Who writes the History, xhosa?
History is not written large, in granite. It is there to be challenged and questioned like everything else.
Most people have done very well at school, sunday school, uni, by absorbing (and believing) everything they read in books. Others have done very well also, by challenging and questioning it. Ask impi - I bet he is one.

And thanks, if you can give me an overview of the Stuart archives, that'd be helpful.

I have been browsing around looking for some of the authors springbok recommended - no luck yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:49 pm

You really need to put a check on your ageism kopie. Springbok, who I would venture to guess is no spring chicken, has one of the most fertile and flexible minds I've encountered not only on this board, but on any board concerned with history. To me this seems to be based on his exhaustive knowledge of the primary sources and first hand familiarity with the physical terrain. He is a veritable font of creative thinking about what might have happened in kwaZulu-Natal in 1879, but far more impressively his ideas are always plausible, not merely "possible" in some abstract sense. If Springbok is a dinosaur, he is most certainly Tyrannosaurus Rex, without the the undertones of tyrannical behavior -- and I say that as somebody who disagrees with him on at least one fundamental issue. Before you crown yourself as emperor of creative historical thinking...you might want to acquaint yourself with all the work of your putative predecessors rather then belittling out of hand.[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:56 pm

Who writes the History, xhosa?.. kopie, mainly bad people.. more about
that in a bit. regarding your reading material, all those titles are ready
available, but why bother? unless you are a serious book collector, you
can get most of the info on line, which is absolutely fine! though you
might want to double check most of that stuff, and thats where us lot
come in,there is always some one with the correct answer. but i must
say you are more than holding your own, in my opinion. Wink 
the more in a bit..bit.
if you will, will you google ( if you dont already know ) Howard Zinn's
a peoples history of the United State's.. i look at every thing differently
now, and came to understand about ' hidden ' history..

6pdr, have you a view on Zinn. Very Happy  Salute  xhosa
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:24 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
Have you a view on Zinn?
Alas, I must confess I have not read his People's History. His philosophy is only familiar to me in a second hand way. He must be persuasive because he has actually convinced members of my own family to think more critically about accepting received historical wisdom--a small miracle. Of course, almost all of us are familiar with the aphorism, "The victors write the history," as is regularly and properly pointed out on this forum. Zinn seems to be particularly sensitive to the point that institutionalized history is like most high art -- commissioned to show the rich and powerful in the most advantageous light. Fair enough. In my day the way this was put wrt to the work of Shakespeare, for example, is that the text had better promote the legitimacy of those in power (the Tudors,) and cast those they opposed as "pretenders" to the throne. From what I gather, Zinn takes the next logical step by pointing out that most history virtually excludes all BUT the ruling class which distorts the focus away from real causal events.

Happy to be corrected because, as I say, this is second hand knowledge. I have not read Zinn.



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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:35 pm

6pdr wrote:
wrt to the work of Shakespeare, for example, is that the text had better promote the legitimacy of those in power (the Tudors,) and cast those they opposed as "pretenders" to the throne.     
6pdr, I hope you are not insinuating that William Shakespeare's writings were anything to do with toeing the party line of the Tudors? His work came only from his own hand and mind.
Richard of York only came to the throne by having his nephews murdered - and do not ask for evidence of this - Richard will have ensured you will not find any! Henry Tudor had every right to take back the throne which Richard had stolen. And only the most blinkered, fervent member of the Plantagenet society could deny that.No[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:52 pm

kopie wrote:
6pdr, I hope you are not insinuating...
The thing is that we do not have an analogous situation wrt to the Anglo-Zulu war. Rather, what strikes me is the unanimity of opinion that Frere was the cause of a wholly illegitimate invasion. There are not many other historical events with such a paucity of opposing views. Find me ONE credible modern source that does not fault him and posits "Zulu aggression" or something similar as the genuine source of the war.

In contrast, as Springbok has twigged to first and best, most of what we are really trying to do here is solve time and motion problems...
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:00 pm

I don't disagree with any of that.

However, I still think you owe William Shakespeare an apology. He will be turning in his grave!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:08 pm

kopie wrote:
However, I still think you owe William Shakespeare an apology. He will be turning in his grave!
Now, now...you are going to give the "gang of four" ammunition to besiege the Admin with claims of "Off topic, off topic!" Also keep in mind that whether they be Boers, Britons or Zulus...the current state of South Africa is not being run by their direct descendants so I think this discussion is somewhat of a red herring.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:13 pm

Nicely side-stepped!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:22 pm

6pdr, you know it's going off topic, but you continue. scratch  Starting to think sabotage. Have you been sent from the enemy lines?


Last edited by littlehand on Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:23 pm

kopie wrote:
Nicely side-stepped!
Ole!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:25 pm

6pdr wrote:
kopie wrote:
Nicely side-stepped!
Ole!
Very Happy 
I am learning all the time!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:26 pm

6pdr/kopie..get a room Very Happy 

6pdr..impressive. re Zinn. i
would'nt espouse any of his
view's in this place, but i
firmly believe in his primary
tenent re, who write's history?.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:30 pm

and yes littlehand is correct
we are way off topic. agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:32 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
6pdr/kopie..get a room Very Happy 

6pdr..impressive. re Zinn. i
would'nt espouse any of his
view's in this place, but i
firmly believe in his primary
tenent re, who write's history?.
xhosa, I like 6pdr. I really do.
But not in that way.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:38 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
but i
firmly believe in his primary
tenent re, who write's history?.
Indeed, authorship may be the only thing that weighs as heavily as heredity.
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PostSubject: Did Ntshingwayo bring forward the attack one day    Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:31 pm

For what it's worth to some this also from ' Who's Who In The Zulu War Vol 2 Colonials and Zulus '' by Knight & Greaves
Page 202 . '' Ntshingwayo was discussing his options for an attack on the camp with his officers late on the morning of the 22nd when british patrols , following up foragers from the uKhandempemvu regt , stumbled upon the hidden zulu army . The uKhandempemvu promptly launched an attack , sucking in the other regt's behind them . Ntshingwayo managed to hold back only those amabutho furthest from the british incursion , administering to them only the last minute pre - battle rituals and command directives , before hurrying after his attacking army .Many of the regimental commanders who had been in discussion with him were , in the meantime , able to rejoin their regiments and impose some direction on the attack .
90th
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PostSubject: Did Ntshingwayo bring forward the attack one day    Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:16 pm

Again for what its worth Ian Knight's ' Zulu Rising ' pge 338
'' That night , however , no plans had been laid to attack the camp on the 22nd , and no arrangements were made for final crucial rituals , the last application of war medicines , which would be vital to top up the spiritual potency of the ceremonies the men the men had passed through at oNdini , and which were so important to protect the men from harm as they went into battle . The Izinduna had broken up the meeting with instructions to reconvene in the morning ''.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:18 pm

90th wrote:
Again for what its worth Ian Knight's  ' Zulu Rising ' pge 338
'' That night , however , no plans had been laid to attack the camp on the 22nd , and no arrangements were made for final crucial rituals , the last application of war medicines , which would be vital to top up the spiritual potency of the ceremonies the men the men had passed through at oNdini , and which were so important to protect the men from harm as they went into battle . The Izinduna had broken up the meeting with instructions to reconvene in the morning ''.
90th
And for the record he also believes that the Zulu did not see Chelmsford leave the camp.
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PostSubject: Did Ntshingwayo bring forward the attack one day ?    Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:33 pm

This from ' Companion to the zulu war ' by I.Knight pge 169 .
'' Since no zulu commander would willingly engage in a battle on the day of the ' dead moon ' , and without having first completed these rituals , this strongly suggests that the attack was not done DELIBERATELY , but was indeed precipitated by a chance encounter with british troops . It is also significant in this regard that , even as the situation developed rapidly with the majority of the amabutho hurrying towards the british camp , the zulu commanders struggled to hold back the reserve units and administer the necessary rituals rather than let them engage in battle in a spiritually weakened state '' .
90th .

As I said not unlike Nyezane where the NNC happened upon the army waiting to stike Pearson , more than likey they werent far off from doing so anyway as the plan was to attack Pearson's column when attempting to cross the river .
No mention of rituals not been performed on this column , as they did indeed surround the camp on the night of the 21st from memory , and withdrew when they thought the britsh knew they were there . You need to study mo 
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PostSubject: The day of darkness   Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:11 am

Hi 90th,
Correct, Mehlogozulu confirmed that saying further that when the Zulu commanders saw the enemy forces prancing about the countryside, fragmented, in front of the lions jaws, they decided to change the plan and launch the battle on 22/01, as it would be an easy victory.
See pm vis-à-vis ILH

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barry
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:15 am

Morning Barry Massive storm on the way up to you, hit the Cape last night, pretty devastating.

Let me have a copy of that PM.

Cheers mate, enjoy the game this afternoon, Braaavleis Biltong sunny skies..............and the Chev of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:34 am

Hi Springbok9,
Good to hear from you.
Indeed the synoptics this morning are showing two bad weather systems in the south, however the one still 500kms south is a very deep depression and likely to dump the whole of the southern Indian Ocean on Cape Town in three hours. My pm to 90 th was about the NLH ( Natal light Horse). I have a piece of memorabilia which he might like.

regards

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:09 pm

Hi Barry
Most of its in my swimming pool.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:56 pm

Why is there a long debate about this, is the sightings reported early in the morning of the 22nd not proof enough, that an attack was iminant. why would they have broken their cover which was happening long before Raw ran into them.
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PostSubject: Re: Did Ntshigwayo kaMahole bring forward the attack one day?   Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:32 pm

This aspect is currently under discussion in the string: iSandlwana and hindsight.

Cheers
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