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  Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana

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PostSubject: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:03 pm

What is the responsibility of the Dartnell in the disaster of Isandhlwana ?
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:08 pm

Pascal you answer lays within-http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t5951p425-durnford-was-he-capable#39814

With a bit of luck you maybe able to tell us. What do you think his responsibilities were.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:18 pm

Pascal, you have a habit of repeatedly asking the same Qs, over and over again. Do you ever read the answers that people post?
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:45 pm

yes,Tasker , but I also know that many people have different answers.

This is what is interesting ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:19 pm


Now , I think that Dartnell took urinary bladder for lanterns and without his report LC would have remained at isandhlwana and may then, the Zulu assault would be less murderer ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:40 pm

Pascal :lol: What are you on about.

Quote :
I think that Dartnell took urinary bladder for lanterns.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:01 pm


It is an Breton language expression, which means that Dartnell confused the Zulus before him (who were irregular as abaqulusi) with the Royal Zulu Army...

If you is preferred, he took something that was of little value to something that was a lot ...

Without Dartnell, LC remained in the camp and then it would go something ...

Later, LC has not criticized Dartnell ?

Me, instead of LC, I have wished a Dartnell ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:03 pm

littlehand wrote:
Pascal :lol: What are you on about.

Quote :
I think that Dartnell took urinary bladder for lanterns.

I think he is getting the discussion confused with what he is having for dinner tonight, LH! :lol:
I wouldn't mind betting though that he is having an exceptionally nice bottle of claret with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:50 pm

My poor Tasker

vessie(in French) = urinary bladder (in English)

"confuse urinary bladder for lanterns "

My poor Tasker , this is what you do often Tasker, should you stop alcohol at your age ???... :lol:

Me, I'm not drunk alcohol for 2 decades ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:59 pm

Pascal. You have some knowledge on the Zulu War, but most of your posts are confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:08 pm

NOT FOR EVERYONE : only for the poor Tasker :lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:15 pm

Quote:
I think that Dartnell took urinary bladder for lanterns.

But what do you mean by this.

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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:07 am

he believed that the Zulu who were before him were the Zulu royal army ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:10 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
he believed that the Zulu who were before him were the Zulu royal army ...

And the evidence for this is ?


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:17 pm

Any evidence to show they wasn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:52 pm

impi wrote:
Any evidence to show they wasn't.

scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:58 pm

DB. You asked Pascal to provide evidence they were members of the royal army. I'm asking you to provide evidence they weren't.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:07 pm

Hi DB 14

The Mayanas was a local Zulu clan, whose warriors were therefore irregulars, just like abaQulusi in northern Zululand.

They are not part of the Zulu royal army.

They have no connections with the royal army Zulu for the battle of Isandhlwana.

They have no communications with the Royal Army Zulu, the January 22 or before the January 22 or after.


Also , there has never been a feint organized by the Mayanas with the royal army Zulu to attract LC outside the camp.

It's Dartnell ,who is confused the Mayanas Zulu with the royal army and attracted LC outside the camp.(He confused bladders for lanterns ...)


Dartnell is the head of the disaster of Isandhlwana.

Imagine LC remained in camp with the troops he took to reach Dartnell, then the Battle of Isandhlwana have had a whole different twist ...

I do not understand that Dartnell, have never been held responsible for the disaster of Isandhlwana by some historians or members of this forum ...

He was rebuked after the war?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandlwana   Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi Pascal .
There are people on here who think Dartnell has a portion of the blame , not because he did anything wrong , mainly because he didnt go back to the camp as he was ordered to do by C'ford . He from memory was told to be back at camp before nightfall . Two Colonial officer's Holcraft and Avery took it upon themselves to leave Dartnells camp and head back to Isandlwana after dark , unfortunately for them they were killed the next day in the battle , its possible there may have been other stragglers who also decided to do the same but we'll never know with 100 % accuracy .
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:37 pm

Hi Gary

It's amazing how hounds Pulleine, Durnford and LC, without the Dartnell error I explained above ,LC not start the camp and they are no disaster ...

It seems that nobody is interested in its responsibility on this forum, it's amazing and in addition, neither persons ,nor LC, do not reproach him, after the war, to have confused the Zulu warriors in front of him with the Zulu royal army ???...

It should be dealing with his case on the forum, and stop blaming LC, Durnford and the poor Pulleine ...

Cheers

Pascal :sleep:
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:10 am

Come on be serious, would you want to move at night, knowing there was hundreds of Zulu in the area. He done the right thing. He formed a defensive square and stayed the night. It was mentioned earlier, there were a awfull lot of zulu camp fires burning.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:48 am

Hi John.

Imagine the January 22 without the emergency call of Dartnell of the 21, which, in his bivouac, send word to LC ,that he was in touch with the enemy, and required reinforcements ...

This is the key to the campaign in January 1879 .

His call to LC is the fatal mistake of the campaign of January 1879.

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:17 am

Pascal, let's throw you into Dartnell's shoes..
You have been sent out to look for the enermy. Your about 8 miles from the camp, when all of a sudden you see hundreds of Zulu infront of you, who are looking pretty intend on doing you some damage.

What would you do?
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:34 am

Hi Impi

But I do not say otherwise, maybe I would have done the same thing has its place, but it was a big mistake ...

This is the key to the disaster of the 22 January 1879 .

You're okay with me ? Without Dartnell, LC would never have left the camp of Isandhlwana ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:23 am

You could say the same about RD.

And what about the attack on Perason's column. Nothing to do with Dartnell, but they still attacked on 22nd Jan.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:06 am

RD's attack is an act of disobedience on the part of Zulu the king's brother and he attack on

the column n°1 by the Zulu royal army (not by irregulars zulu warriors of a local clan) was

accidentally triggered by the NNC like the attack of the Isandhlwana camp.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:57 am

But according to you. If Dartnell had give the 999 call Isandlwana would not have been attacked. If Isandlwana wasn't attacked then RD woundn't have been attacked.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:49 pm

Isandhlwana might be attacked with purpose,but with LC remained in the camp with the troops he Took to reach Dartnell, then the Battle of Isandhlwana Have had a whole different twist ...

And then the attack of RD would perhaps not existed...

How many defenders would he have at Isandhlwana, if LC stayed there,in the camp , instead of going to strengthen Dartnell ?
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 pm

impi wrote:
Pascal, let's throw you into Dartnell's shoes..
You have been sent out to look for the enermy. Your about 8 miles from the camp, when all of a sudden you see hundreds of Zulu infront of you, who are looking pretty intend on doing you some damage.

What would you do?


Quite. Dartnell and his men had been sent out East to look for the main Zulu impi, which LC believed was out there and no doubt informed Dartnell was out there.
Dartnell was hoping to find a large Zulu force. Dartnell found a large Zulu force.
What else do you think Dartnell thought he had found?
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:45 am

I folds, because with the number and type of troops that I have with me, nothing serious is possible ...

I know that LC was asked Dartnell to return to Isandhlwana and Dartnell do not ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:58 pm

What do you think Dartnell thought he had FOUND Pascal, if not the Zulu army he was searching for?

He was never expected to attack it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:22 pm

Although the Zulus fought at night at RD. I seem to recall they weren't to keen on fighting in darkness, something to do with evil spirits?

So is it fair to say, that Darnell's column could have moved back to the camp at night. Point being no attack was made on them anyway. And the other point LC was allowed to move un-molested to Dartnells position.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:13 am

Altho the Zulus Fought at night at RD. I SEEM to recall They Were not to keen on fighting in darkness, something to do with evil spirits?

Yes but with the burning of the hospital, there was good visibility for Zulu attacking RDVery Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:09 am

Read between the lines that's what he's saying.

Just wondering how far Darnell was going to go, if the Zulus hadn't shown themselves. Would he have moved even further from the camp.

Perhaps it's was just Dartnell's force the Zulu's were trying to hood wink and never thought LC would split the camp to go to Dartnell's assistance.

Opening the door for the attack on Isandlwana.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:34 am

Opening the door for the attack on Isandlwana scratch  For this, it must be shown that there have been connivance between the Zulus in front of Dartnell and those who attacked Isandhlwana Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Dartnell and the disaster of iSandlwana   Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:41 pm

I think I see what you mean Pascal.

If Dartnell had obeyed his orders and returned to the camp before nightfall, then Chelmsford would have had no need to divide his column and go off on what became a wild goose chase.

Chelmsford would have still been at the camp, and surely would have done a little better than Pulleine did, by doing something (ie; defensive and the ammo supply), about all the sightings of zulu's in the area. He would also have had the option of cancelling Durnford's earlier orders (re-Matyanas), and instead, sending for him to come up to the camp with his column, as his mounted men would be ideal for patrolling around the area. Then when/if the zulu's had kicked off, they might have got themselves a bloody nose rather than a victory, and the war just might have been ended sooner rather than later.

I have often wondered if the zulu's did indeed hoodwink Dartnell, both Lock and Quantrill seem to think so, and if it was a planned 'ploy' by the zulu's, then it worked a treat for them, by also drawing out Chelmsford with half of the column.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:48 pm

It is exactly this, Sir mARTIN, LC would have done much better with more troops and guns...

And I do not see why Durnford would have his orders canceled, he had to go to his column in Zululand, one day ... Even more troops to this hypothetical et good scenario ...

By cons it is not normal that the entire n °2 column is not entered in Zululand with the brave Durnford the 22 January 1879, another quirk of LC ...???Even more troops for LC to this hypothetical et good scenario ...

For local Zulu clans, it is very simple, compare:

A Hlobana the Zulu royal army reaches Hlobana, the day or Wood attack the abaQulusi, it is a coincidence ...

The abaQulusi help the Zulu royal army to Kambula is the conivance ...

LC is deceived by the presence of the warriors of Sihayo opposite Dartnell is a coincidence.


Because I believe that if the Zulu royal army had wanted the help and reinforcement of the warriors of the local clan of Sihayo,the warriors of Sihayo have been simply to meet the Zulu royal army when she advanced in direction of the third British column after the 17 January 1879 ,and Dartnell has nothing met.

En fait no diversion plan would have been established,the local clans warriors defending their territory on site with or without the help of the Zulu royal army ...

The warriors of local clans Sihayo were in their place and did what they had to do after the affair of January 12, 'were just borders - guards ...

It seems that all who were local zulu clans along the borders, fought separately from the Zulu royal army and well behaved ... Hlobana is an exception ...

Cheers

Pascal the Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:12 pm

In any case, if there was was a conivance betweens the warriors of the Clan of Sihayo and the Zulu royal army, the army of Sihayo would have gone to the Zulu royal army to join her ...

Once assembled, it swept the third column with a minimum of 30,000 warriors ...

Before the January 22 ,the zulus could not know that LC would leave the camp to strengthen Dartnell ...

When the zulu attack on the camp the January 22, it's a pure coincidence, without the recognition of Raw, desired by the brave Durnford, although misinformed by the poor Pulleine on the situation, the Zulus would attack the next day, the back, the garrison camp en route to join LC ...

Cheers

Pascal the Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:51 pm

I did read somewhere, will dig it out... But Chelmsford expected to be back at Isandlwana, before Durnford arrived.
Which would make sense regarding no further orders being left at Isandlwana. Another line of thought to consider?

When you consider 30,000 Zulus plus made there way, unseen with 5 Miles of the camp, getting a message to the Zulus to entice the British further from the camp. Would have been a walk in the park.
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:21 pm

How many men did Major Dartnell have with him?
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:00 pm

In my scenario, if the Warriors of Sihyo went to meet the Zulu royal army after the battle of the January 12, they would have joined, the January 18 ...

In this situation, LC would not have to send Dartnell in recognition, but his whole column was wiped out the 21 or 23 January by both Zulu armies met, totaling a minimum of 30 000/34 000 men ...
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PostSubject: Re: Dartnell and the disaster of Isandhlwana    Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:37 am

The Major Clery wrote :Dartnell, to say "that the enemy was in Greater numbers" and "About did he not think it prudent to attack them Unless reinforced by two or three companies of the 24th Regiment." Why, with two or three companies of the 24th Regiment, he wanted that him and LC to attack et defeat ,theses Zulu in open country .In this case, the Zulu opposite Dartnell, were not very many things ...

Best regards

Pascal
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