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PostSubject: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 7:00 am

Hi all

Were there other and best organizations troops plan to invade Zululand, rather than used in January 1879 ?

Cheers

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 5:53 pm

scratch
Pascal, can you rephrase the Q?
Don't understand, something lost in translation.
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 7:15 pm

LC had he made ​​other plans for the invasion of Zululand who would have been better ...?
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PostSubject: Plans to Invade Zululand     Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 9:12 pm

Hi Pascal .
When Chelmesford decided to invade zululand he put his plans into place , but I've read somewhere that he changed
them, although there were only minor changes . He decided to invade when he did as he needed to finish it quickly , this is what he and Frere hatched between themselves . Chelmesford was actually told to take all precautions to not start a war with the zulu nation. Chelmesford did what he could with what he had available in the time that he could use .
90th.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 9:55 pm

Lets not forget.

"Lord Chelmsford invaded Zululand without the knowledge of the British Government in the hope that he could Capture Cetshwayo, the Zulu King, before London discovered that hostilities had begun"
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptyWed Nov 21, 2012 11:07 pm

It is unbelievable that they could trigger and start a war without any permission of the British government and that has suffered a disaster, they were not punished ...

This is the fact that the Queen felt much LC, otherwise, the Prime Minister, whose career has been compromised, would operate widely heavily ...

Frere and LC are really two :evil:


With me, the invasion would have made ​​efficassemment without disasters ...

I would have calculated number of troops for the invasion after the number of carts & wagons supplies available ...

I would have taken the maximun of British Imperial Iinfantry and British Imperial Artillery ( if possible all the British Imperial Iinfantry and British Imperial Artillery in garrison in South Africa ) after the number of carts & wagons of supplies available (And placing white colonial troops in garrison in the place of the imperial troops wherever there was stationed)

And if had enough carts & wagons of supplies available, I would have taken any troops NNH for recognition ...

I would not have taken the " infantry" of the NNC and the NNPC which would have remained patrolling along the borders and no white colonial troops would have also remained patrolling along the borders or in garrison in the place of the imperial troops wherever there was stationed...

Being knowledgeable about the Zulu tactics by the old Boers who had fought them in 1838, my troops were entrained to form the laagers and the tactics Regulation 1877 (used by Pearson and Pulleine) were bet aside ...
...


I would Have Formed only a single column, starting from R D and all would be well spent...

Cheers

Pascal
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi Pascal

An interesting theoretical plan.

Chelmsford had in January 1879 in total (according to the Narrative of Field Operations):

977 wagons
10,023 oxen
56 carts
398 mules

He is clearly short of oxen : 977 x 16 = 15,632 !!!!!

However, probably enough for 5 battalions of British Infantry, the Naval Brigade, the Artillery and the logistic support.

However, let's assume he could find an additional 5000 oxen, his column would have stretched for some 28 miles !!!! There are obvious geographic constraints as to how wide you can make your column - to reduce its length. And, remember, oxen can only do about a maximum of 11 miles per day. If it rained a colum of this size would have quickly ground to a halt - bogged in.

Also by leaving out all of the NNC, and relegating the Colonial troops to garrison duty you have totally denuded yourself of any reconnaissance capability, except for the 5 troops of the NNH - a mere 250 troopers !!! I'm sure mounted Zulu scouts could have quickly nullified this small mounted force.

Chelmsford was good at logistics, well, at least doing the best he could with what he had (he had proved this in Abyssinia) and this explains his plans for inading Zululand - 5 columns (later reduced to 3) converging on Ulundi.

My conclusion - Chelmsford lost 2 columns at Isandlwana, I think you could well have lost the whole army in one go !!!

Bill

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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 1:23 pm

Hind sight is a wonderful thing, but even with it Pascal, your plan would have been doomed to failure for all the reasons Bill has pointed out, and I shouldn't argue with Bill if I were you, you should listen to him.

The only benefit we can take from hind sight is that LC wanted a fight and he was going to get one.
LC should have proceeded a few miles further East of iSandlwana and set up camp in more open ground. He should have fortified the camp, not split the column and at the first sign of Zulu attack on the 22nd formed the entire column up into a square to receive the Zulu assault. This might, just might, have stood a chance of resisting the attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Hi Bill and Tasker

Yes my plan is an interesting theoretical plan.

Chelmsford had in January 1879 in total (according to the Narrative of Field Operations):

977 wagons
10,023 oxen for 626 wagons (351 cars without oxen) but as a measure that the military campaign unfolds, the army soon buy additional oxen ...
56 carts
398 mules for the 56 carts ?and for any wagons ?

Yes Bill and Tasker he is clearly short of oxen ...

However, probably enough for 5 battalions of British Infantry, the Naval Brigade, the Artillery and the logistic support.

No brigade naval in my plan ,Bill and Tasker,brigade naval are good troops for a garrison...


Yes I assume LC could find an additional 5000 oxen,also his column would have stretched for some 28 miles and they are obvious geographic constraints...

To reduce its length Bill and Tasker,5 small columns , a column per battalion moving in sight of each other, they are no a file of 45 kms but 9 kms per column....

And, remember, oxen can only do about a maximum of 11 miles per day. If it rained a colum of this size would have quickly ground to a halt - bogged in.

Yes Bill and Tasker , but whatever the size of the column or columns, speed and rain, remaining a problem ,but if a column of battalion is blocked, the other should also stop , not let alone the blocked column ...

A columns per battalions, but Bill and Tasker what were the five battalions the more experienced in the 9th Cap War for fighting the zulus ?

And the Imperial Infantryman can only do about a maximum 11 miles per day in zululand ?

Bill and Tasker , by leaving out all of the NNC, and relegating the Colonial troops to garrison I have not totally denuded myself of any reconnaissance capability, the 6 troops (not 5) of the NNH - a mere 300 troopers are sufficient for surrounded by tiny groups of 10 cavalrymen per example ,my 5 columns for signaling the arrival of the impis!

Interdiction to fight for my scouts, as good Units of recognition never fight (After Rommel) and I'm not sure that mounted Zulu scouts could have quickly nullified my small mounted force,because ,Bill and Tasker ,the Zulu had are very short in cavalrymen, for example during the rebellion of 1888, they are only 30 Zulu cavalrymen...

The question ,Bill and Tasker , is how much it takes of wagons to form a laager for cover an entire battalion and how long time , for formed this laager...

Yes Chelmsford was very good at logistician !!!, And he had proved that in his Abyssinia Campaign...

My conclusion - Chelmsford lost 2 columns at Isandlwana, I think I have lost no columns in this war !!!

Cheers

Pascal
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bill cainan



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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 2:58 pm

Hi Pascal

Have a look at a map of Zululand and show me a route between the Buffalo River and Ulundi wide enough to get 5 battalion columns moving in parallel ? These ARE the geographical constraints ? Have you ever been to Zululand ?

You SHOULD take the Naval Brigade - they have a gatling gun !

Because of the lack of logistic lift, each column will still need to maintain lines of communications back to Natal - so in fact you will have 5 columns each stretching about 5 miles long with EACH having an increasingly longer LOC tail.

At each donga you will need to grade the bank down, establish a culvert and grade the far bank to allow the passage of wagons - who will do this for you ?- you've left all of the NNC in Natal !

Did all your 5 battalions fight in the 9th Cape Frontier War ? Are they all battle hardened veterans ?

Presumably you will re-equip your artillery with 9pdrs and leave the rockets back in Natal ?

300 native cavalrymen, with little experience in scouting, are your only recconnaissance for five columns ? I agree that the Zulus have no organised cavalry - but only 30 mounted Zulu scouts ????? I wouldn't stake my life on that ! If you want proper aggressive scouting, then wait for the British cavalry to arrive - that IS what they are trained to do !

You can do the sums yourself for laagering a column:

Each wagon with a team is over 30 yards long.
You have one conductor for every ten wagons .
Each team will have to move two wagons in sequence (because of the shortage of oxen)
Average speed of an ox wagon 1.5mph
A loaded wagon weighs at least 3 tons (how many men to manhandle this over rough ground ?)
The Centre Column had 220 waggons for essentially a 2 battalion force - you are presumably going to take around a 100 for each of your battalion columns (allowing wagons for food & fodder). No doubt you can look at the loadings required and calculate exactly what number of wagons you require - I would be interested to see your calculations !!!
ALSO,
Whatever time figure you arrive at for laagering, you will probably need to double it to allow for rough ground.
If you intend to laager your wagons each day, this will have to come out of the "working" 8 hours of the oxen, this will reduce your daily mileage accordingly - to maybe 5 or 6 ? How long to reach Ulundi ? At reduced distances, it will take longer so you will have to carry more food and fodder - this is what logistics are all about. If Chelmsford could only manage 3 widely spaced columns then that is probably the optimum. You might also look at how they organised the laagering of wagons at Gingindhlovu and (near) Ulundi - arrived at with the benefit of hindsight.

And where exactly are you going to buy the necessary oxen to meet your shortfall ? You are probably aware on the problems existing in the
Transvaal on the purchase of wagons and oxen ?

I spent a lot of time in the Army working on logistic loadings for a Brigade ande believe me, it ain't easy !!!. Armchair generals are bad enough, but armchair logisticians ....... !

Good luck with your plan. I would have immediately volunteered for garrison duty in Natal (or even better, in Cape Town castle) !

Bill

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 3:03 pm

Pascal. Bill as outlined the reality of it. Not that easy is it... Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 5:09 pm

Hi Pascal

Have a look at a map of Zululand and show me a route between the Buffalo River and Ulundi wide enough to get 5 battalion columns moving in parallel ?

Bill,but we are not obliged to leave from RD,no ? Salute

These ARE the geographical constraints ?

This is the problem when you want to make war on the highway, but it is not the eighteenth century Salute


Have you ever been to Zululand ?

No ... I love only my Brittany ... Salute

You SHOULD take the Naval Brigade - they have a gatling gun !

Bill ,ok ,for the gatling gun but only with you ,Tasker and LH as crews... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Because of the lack of logistic lift, each column will still need to maintain lines of communications back to Natal - so in fact you will have 5 columns each stretching about 5 miles long with EACH having an increasingly longer LOC tail.

But Bill, what do you as column length ? scratch


At each donga you will need to grade the bank down, establish a culvert and grade the far bank to allow the passage of wagons - who will do this for you ?- But with you,Tasker & LH... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did all your 5 battalions fight in the 9th Cape Frontier War ? Are they all battle hardened veterans ?

Bill,which were the most hardened battalions at this time ? Question

Presumably you will re-equip your artillery with 9pdrs and leave the rockets back in Natal ?

Bill , no 9pdrs in South Africa at that time and the rockets are bad armaments... Salute

300 native cavalrymen, with little experience in scouting, are your only recconnaissance for five columns ?


No Bill 300 native cavalrymen+ You ,Tasker & LH on foot :lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree that the Zulus have no organised cavalry - but only 30 mounted Zulu scouts ?????
Yes only 30 mounted Zulu in 1888... Salute

I wouldn't stake my life on that ! Me either :lol: :lol: :lol:


If you want proper aggressive scouting, then wait for the British cavalry to arrive - that IS what they are trained to do !

But the british cavalrymen are like their horses , they do not want to eat the grass of the Zululand :lol: :lol: :lol: and this we would additional wagons with these units of cavalry... Salute

Each wagon with a team is over 30 yards long.
You have one conductor for every ten wagons .
Each team will have to move two wagons in sequence (because of the shortage of oxen)
Average speed of an ox wagon 1.5mph
A loaded wagon weighs at least 3 tons (how many men to manhandle this over rough ground ?)
The Centre Column had 220 waggons for essentially a 2 battalion force - you are presumably going to take around a 100 for each of your battalion columns (allowing wagons for food & fodder). No doubt you can look at the loadings required and calculate exactly what number of wagons you require - I would be interested to see your calculations !!!

100 wagons per battalions and 1600 oxens per battalions, ok,so with 10,023 oxen for 500 wagons it's good for 20 oxens per wagon ,no? Salute

ALSO,
Whatever time figure you arrive at for laagering, you will probably need to double it to allow for rough ground.
If you intend to laager your wagons each day, this will have to come out of the "working" 8 hours of the oxen, this will reduce your daily mileage accordingly - to maybe 5 or 6 ? How long to reach Ulundi ?

But we have all the time to reach Ulundi, there is no hurry...


At reduced distances, it will take longer so you will have to carry more food and fodder - this is what logistics are all about. If Chelmsford could only manage 3 widely spaced columns then that is probably the optimum. You might also look at how they organised the laagering of wagons at Gingindhlovu and (near) Ulundi - arrived at with the benefit of hindsight.


Well, if they just did it for Gingindlovu and Ulundi, why not in January ... Salute


And where exactly are you going to buy the necessary oxen to meet your shortfall ? You are probably aware on the problems existing in the Transvaal on the purchase of wagons and oxen ?

There are more wagons than it does, see above .... Salute

I spent a lot of time in the Army working on logistic loadings for a Brigade ande believe me, it ain't easy !!!. Armchair generals are bad enough, but armchair logisticians ....... !

Should not mix all Bill, the real generals or logisticians do more damage... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck with your plan. I would have immediately volunteered for garrison duty in Natal (or even better, in Cape Town castle) !

No refused,your are en avant garde,with Tasker & LH :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheers

Pascal
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySat Nov 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Pascal, looks like you have been studying. Good post, in parts.
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 8:03 am

It is the wargame ...

We better reflects things in 3 dimensions...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 8:25 am

Pascal

You talk tactics, it's easy, I'm talking about the constitution of the columns ...

tasker224 Yesterday at 2:23 pm


Hind sight is a wonderful thing, but even with it Pascal, your plan would have been doomed to failure for all the reasons Bill has pointed out, and I shouldn't argue with Bill if I were you, you should listen to him.

The only benefit we can take from hind sight is that LC wanted a fight and he was going to get one.
LC should have proceeded a few miles further East of iSandlwana and set up camp in more open ground. He should have fortified the camp, not split the column and at the first sign of Zulu attack on the 22nd formed the entire column up into a square to receive the Zulu assault. This might, just might, have stood a chance of resisting the attack.

Pascal

Given the logistic difficulty, it should take that troops with high firepower, that's what I meant ...


On a strategic level, the attack of the Zululand in 5 or 3 column is useless since the initiative will always with the Zulus ...

One mass of troops in front of the Zulu mass as a Gingindlovu or Ulundi and the case is resolved ...

With Zulu, Matabele or dervishes who are very aggressive and offensive, it is a good plan, as they look, too, the decisive battle ...

A army advancing in detachments are good has to be destroyed in detail.

That's why it only takes a column ...
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 1:02 pm

Pascal

On the strategic level your aim is not only to bring the Zulu to battle, but also the defence of Natal and the continued stabilisation of the Transvaal. If you advance on Ulundi in one big column (albeit subdivided into 5 battalion columns) you leave Natal wide open. The Boers could also take advantage of Britisdh troops being far away. Apart from the logistic nightmare, these are other considerations that Chelmsford had to keep in mind.

His ability to secure information on what the Zulus were doing was also restricted by his lack of "proper" cavalry - how he must have wished for even one British cavalry regiment during the first invasion. This situation was exacerbated by his relationship with Durnford, possibly the one man who could have been useful in this situation.

However, I do believe that there was a mindset that permeated through the invading force from Private to General - that the Zulus would only fight when the invading force reached Ulundi. This would explain many things, including Isandlwana. It certainly was a lesson they had to learn the hard way.

In your invasion "plan" you are drawing heavily on hindsight. Would you apply the same to the Zulu ? If I was Cetswayo, as your massive column lumbered into Zululand at 1.5mph, I would side step you and burn Natal to the ground (including all your rear supply bases !). Let's see how far your advance would go without re-supply !!!!!

Try and look at events without drawing on hindsight - try and think why decision were made based on knowledge/information known at the time. Chelmsford had a very difficult problem, not made any easier by his mind (and others) being heavily influenced by the way the 9th Cape Frontier War had gone. You are a wargamer, the war was being fought by professional soldiers (who like everyone, occasionally make mistakes). There is a fine line between incompetence and bad luck !!!

Bill (from the security of Cape Town Castle)
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Okay well in that case, no invasion of Zululand ....

A life as at war, I kill by professional assassins, all the Pedi, Basotho and Zulu kings and all Boer leaders ...

Like this, it suits you ?
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 1:44 pm

Bill
Quote :
Chelmsford had a very difficult problem

"Chelmsford had been the logistics chief of the British expedition into Abyssinia to rescue hostages years before; that army of 5000 men never went hungry or thirsty nor lacked ammunition or, indeed, anything else. Chelmsford knew logistics. He didn't make errors in Abyssinia and it is certain that in South Africa he did what was best with what was available. All of which is of academic interest only as it had absolutely nothing to do with the battle itself."
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PostSubject: Re: Plan to invade the Zululand...    Plan to invade the Zululand... EmptySun Nov 25, 2012 3:11 pm

Chelmsford knew and is a very good logistician...
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