WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Writing advice
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Mar 26, 2024 2:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyWed Mar 20, 2024 12:53 pm by Dash

» Sergeant W E Warren RA - Veteran
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 9:32 pm by Matthew Turl

» Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu Dawn
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 4:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» 100,000 posts!
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 2:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 2:34 pm by jgregory

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Mar 16, 2024 11:05 am by John Young

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am by Julian Whybra

» British rations and morale
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 11:05 pm by Julian Whybra

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyMon Mar 11, 2024 9:16 pm by ADMIN

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:16 pm by Julian Whybra

» William J Hoare 24th Regiment??
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySun Mar 03, 2024 7:08 pm by Dash

» Swinburn Carbine issue in AZW
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 12:53 pm by Rob D

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 8:39 am by John Young

» Philip Price
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:55 am by Julian Whybra

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra

» About the second invasion
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Watford band boys killed at iSandlwana
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN

» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997

» What was the distance?
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan

» Mrs Henry Hook
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny

» "With 6 good riflemen"
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyMon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» What was G company supposed to do?
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William Wylie
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young

» South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60th
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody

» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie

» Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-Tynte
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg

» How many started?
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am by Julian Whybra

» Firing Line formation
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyMon Jan 22, 2024 2:32 pm by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
March 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
25262728293031
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
Dash
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
Hobbes
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
Bill8183
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
SRB1965
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
John Young
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
ADMIN
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
jgregory
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
Rob Herrick
Lack of good intelligence. Bar_leftLack of good intelligence. BarLack of good intelligence. Bar_right 
New topics
» Writing advice
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyTue Mar 19, 2024 8:57 pm by Hobbes

» 100,000 posts!
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySun Mar 17, 2024 11:14 am by ADMIN

» Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Mar 15, 2024 8:27 pm by Rob Herrick

» British rations and morale
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyWed Mar 06, 2024 9:24 pm by Hobbes

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 29, 2024 7:47 am by RoryReynolds

» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell

» About the second invasion
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
Lack of good intelligence. EmptyThu Feb 15, 2024 4:46 pm by Will M

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Lack of good intelligence.

Go down 
5 posters
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 5:30 am

Hi all

Why there has been a lack of good intelligence on the size and location of Zulu strength in the January 1879 Campaign in the zululand ?

Cheers

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


Posts : 2590
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 12:35 pm

Hi Pascal.

If you are refering to iSandlwana, this is down to Chelmsford not recconoitering the whole area around the camp thoroughly enough.

(Something that the Durnford bashers can't blame Durnford for).
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 12:53 pm

Hi Mr M. Cooper

I'm not accusing anyone in particular, because judging people's behavior, after several decades, it becomes a tiring, but nevertheless there were gaps of this type in this campaign, who's to blame?

You who have read so much about the war, you should admit that I am right, the Zulu seriously deluded all the British officers, no...

Cheers

Pascal
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr


Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 3:10 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Why there has been a lack of good intelligence on the size and location of Zulu strength in the January 1879 Campaign in the zululand ?
Pascal

I believe that this was the pivotal issue of the campaign. I think it was due to a lack of professional cavalrymen in Chelmsford's column. He had colonial cavalry which he probably did not use as well as he could. We can speculate as to the reasons for that. And he had mounted infantry...which had horses but certainly not the instincts and training of full time cavalry. Chelmsford seems to have dealt with this by riding out on "scouts" himself which shows that he was a relatively energetic officer. That said, the force commander's very presence would have inhibited deep reconnaissance. Also, it's possible that Chelmsford's jaunts out into the Mangeni or wherever gave him false confidence.

I think this is a topic that warrants further exploration -- it's own thread even.

Exactly how did a competent commander allow an enemy army to arrive close on his flank without warning? What went wrong in the scouting...because in some ways this is like the battle of Midway...i.e. the British knew the Zulu Army was coming and missed it anyway.
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


Posts : 2590
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Good post 6pdr.

I think that you have hit the nail on the head saying that by riding out with the scouts it gave him false confidence.

The reconnaissance should have been a lot more thorough than it was, but by Chelmsford having this false confidence, it wasn't done as thoroghly as it should have been, and through this, the zulus were able to get very close without being spotted. Then of course there followed the splitting of No 3 column and heading off on a wild goose chase to aid Dartnell and bring what he thought was the main zulu army to battle. I have often thought about this 'Dartnell incident', Lock and Quantrill are of the opinion that it was a cunning ploy to hopefully lure away part of the force at the camp, if this was the intention of Ntshingwayo kaMahole, then it worked like a dream for him.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Hi all

This is the key of the Zulu victory and I put my finger on it ...

Cheers

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 7:48 pm

NMP were used extensively as vedettes and scouts rather than the IMI.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 7:53 pm

This should answer all your questions..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 57
Location : North London

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 7:56 pm

Complacency - on Chelmsford's part; did not feel the need to comit too many resources to this.
Zulu skill and field craft in remaining undetected; they manoeuvred 20,000+ men around LC's column, quietly and swiftly. The Zulu knew where the columns were and were able to avoid them when moving.
Complacency - Pulleine not taking the intelligence he actually did get anything like seriously enough.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 8:09 pm

The infantry of the NNC would do the same job as the Zulu scouts.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 57
Location : North London

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 8:14 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
The infantry of the NNC would do the same job as the Zulu scouts.

Only under equally competent leadership!
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptyFri Nov 30, 2012 8:22 pm

And in egal number .

And the 6 NNH troops ? Not good for scouting...?
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr


Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Dec 01, 2012 2:38 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
And the 6 NNH troops ? Not good for scouting...?

Well, that's essentially my question...i.e. whether Chelmsford made optimal use of his "irregulars?"

It's all well and good to mistake the Mounted Infantry for cavalry but by some accounts they could barely sit their horses. That's not the real issue though. The real issue is whether they had any cavalry instincts. You know it's "real cavalry" when you have trouble reigning them in. A good cavalry commander would probably have been pushing Chelmsford (and certainly Pulleine) to send him out for a look over the next hill...and the next...and the next...relentlessly.

My decidedly amateur impression was that Durnford trained "his (mounted) Basutos" (and the Edendale contingent,) for the battlefield. I'm not sure whether there was really a strong "cavalry culture" in those units. Had any of them ever been out on a long range or independent reconnaissance? Hunting was probably as close as most of them got.

The NMP and other colonial cavalry would probably have had stronger cavalry DNA but they weren't professionals and there isn't much evidence that Chelmsford (or anybody else,) cultivated them. Maybe that was his blind spot? Dunno.

It's quite possible I am completely wrong. I am more than happy to be corrected...especially by anybody who knows how things went with the Lancers during Chelmsford's second try.

A closely related question is how efficient the Zulu reconnaissance was before the battle. My impression is that they were keeping the camp under close observation.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Dec 01, 2012 2:58 pm

Hi 3 pdr

Chelmsford made ​​optimal use of his "irregulars?" No! no! and no! Sad Sad Sad

"his (mounted) Basutos" (and the Edendale quota) are not all Basotho (only one unit on 6, but all were worth), but all are very good scouts, for the British officers during the war against the Basotho (the same time as the 8th war against the Xhosa) the Basotho are the Cossacks of the south africa, so they were perfectly able to do the job.

And much better than any other unit of colonial horse or the British imperial cavalry...

we believe dream ?

Last new, now it's the fault of NNH units, if the British have been rolled! Sad Sad Sad

Cheers

Pascal
Back to top Go down
6pdr

6pdr


Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Dec 01, 2012 6:32 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Last new, now it's the fault of NNH units, if the British have been rolled! Sad Sad Sad l

Pascal, if I can paraphrase, do you mean, "Here's the latest news, it's now the fault of the Natal Native Horse that the British got beat at Isandlwana(?)"

Because that's hardly what I meant. But I can see the humor of it if you were just being clever. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Lack of good intelligence. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lack of good intelligence.   Lack of good intelligence. EmptySat Dec 01, 2012 6:54 pm

Well done, yes it is this, it's humor and it's true that I'm not too stupid :lol:
Back to top Go down
 
Lack of good intelligence.
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Lack of Information. !!! Colour Sergeant Wolfe.
» For Lack of a Screwdriver
» chelmsford's orders: lack of clarity, a habit?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: