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 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist

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SergioD

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PostSubject: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Inspired by Petty Officer Tom's epic Naval list - I thought it would be interesting to start a list of Lancer medals known to exist.

I have pulled together an initial list from a quick look at the auction houses and from my own notes/collection. I will be contacting the Lancer museum to see what they have in their collection and some of the larger dealers to see if they have records of medals that have passed through their hands.

Where possible I have used the inscription on the medals rather than the spelling in Dutton's list - the medal roll is notoriously difficult to read.

I will update this list once I have checked if service papers are available.

Could you please let me know of other medals in your collection or that you are aware of . . Feel free to PM me if you dont want to give up details of your collections discretion is assured.

Cheers

Sergio


J Berryman VC Quartermaster 1879
1176 J Dunn Trumpeter Major 1879
861 HJS Barrett Sergeant 1879
1820 PY Dwyer Lance Sergeant 1879
2371 J Winship Lance Sergeant 1879
1509 JJ Thomas Corporal 1879
1503 FJ Leigh Corporal 1879
2104 W Godfrey Lance Corporal 1879
2198 E Healey Lance Corporal 1879
2205 E Allen Private 1879
2319 S Atkings Private 1879
2209 H Barker Private 1879
2288 I Bartram Private 1879
1051 A Bide Private 1879
2210 J Bluff Private 1879
1744 F Call Private 1879
2213 W Campbell Private 1879
2069 W Coldwell Private 1879
2282 G Cooper Private 1879
2295 W Crick Private 1879
2073 H Cunliffe Private 1879
2072 W Day Private No clasp
1628 W Duff Private 1879
2050 W T Featherstone Private 1879
2157 F Ferris Private 1879
1525 G Foster Private 1879
1452 TGH Frost Private 1879
Gardiner Private 1879
1500 R Hammond Private 1879
1644 A Harbison Private 1879
1106 H Hardiment Private 1879
1293 E Harper Private 1879
2329 R Howard Private 1879
2149 W Hunt Private 1879
2124 F Icke Private 1879
2302 AA Jones Private 1879
1025 E Jones Private 1879
2256 R Keeble Private 1879
2299 J Kiernan Private No clasp
2258 G Lough Private 1879
1203 S Mack Private 1879
1673 R Milne Private 1879
2305 W Moss Private 1879
2080 AW Mowatt Private 1879
2283 G Oatley Private 1879
1793 J Osthennier Private 1879
2225 T Page Private 1879
1873 EC Peyton Private 1879
1478 VD Potter Private 1879
1332 J Ramsbottom Private 1879
2242 LT Reynolds Private 1879
1757 A Scott Private 1879
958 HG Smith Private 1879
2126 C Sparks Private 1879
2231 B Walters Private 1879
2005 J Watts Private 1879
1453 G Wilson Private 1879


1167 G Davidson T Sergeant Major LS&GC
861 HJS Barrett Sergeant LS&GC
1490 G Selwood Corporal LS&GC


Last edited by SergioD on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:36 am; edited 6 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:29 pm

from the above list the following have service records at the PRO
Dunn
Godfrey
Bide
Icke

Cheers

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:32 pm

Well done SD. Please could you let us know which auction catalogues you have browsed to save us fishing the same waters?
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:05 pm

2104 L/Corpl. W.L. Godfrey

1609 Corpl. J. J. Thomas

1176 Trumpt. Mjr. J. Dunn
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:36 am

Some more medals courtesy of Petty Officer Tom, Tasker and 90th Very Happy

I have so far gone through Spinks, DNW, Glendennings . Will contact the dealers soon.

I think we have a member from Baldwins perhaps they could check..

i am waiting to hear back from the Lancers museum at which point I shall issue a revised list to help people check if we already have it.

Will add service details for those with papers - hopefully during the xmas new year break ..

2282 J Cooper Private 1879
2072 W Day Private No clasp
1525 G Foster Private 1879
Gardiner Private 1879
1293 E Harper Private 1879
2299 J Kiernan Private No clasp
2283 G Oatley Private 1879


regards

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:14 pm

2703 Trumpeter C. Campbell 17th Lancers

Probably of no interest to the list - it has been renamed

Bosley's 13/9/2006
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90th

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PostSubject: 17th Lcrs Medals Known To Exist    Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:02 am

Hi Tasker .
Agreed , Suspect Suspect .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:13 pm

2069 Pte W. Coldwell.

From LH's list of 2003.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:23 pm

thanks Tasker - Found that seperately looks like it was auctioned at Morton and Eden Dec 2003!!

bet it was a lot cheaper than now!!
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:56 pm

todays research has come up with the follwoing additions to the list over and above Coldwell .

2205 E Allen Private 1879 with service papers
2080 AW Mowatt Private 1879
2005 J Watts Private 1879

Cheers

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:19 pm

HI SD
If you could edit the new names in to your original grand list (first post) it would save having to look through this list and every other post each time. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:39 am

Tasker

I hear you and will do so from now on.

with the addition of L/Serg Dwyer, Winship and Corp Leigh

see first post for updated list
cheers
SD
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:32 pm

Todays findings are...

2209 H Barker Private 1879
2288 I Bartram Private 1879
2210 J Bluff Private 1879
1628 W Duff Private 1879
2149 W Hunt Private 1879
1873 EC Peyton Private 1879
2126 C Sparks Private 1879


That brings the number up to 52 reckoning on a 20% medal survival rate that leaves around 75 to go!!

I have updated the list in the original post to make it easier for members to check if we already have them tracked.

I wonder if there are any medals in South Africa museums ?

I have also marked with an * those names where the service papers exist. I have downloaded these and will provide brief career writeups over time.

Cheers

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:33 pm

Good work SD!
Where did you find today's medals?
Also, why do you assume only a 20% survival rate? Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:54 am

tasker224 wrote:
Good work SD!
Where did you find today's medals?
Also, why do you assume only a 20% survival rate? Salute


Todays medals were provided by a member of the british medals forum (a very useful website for collectors) who has tracked sales of Lancer medals. He stated that all of these medals are with private collectors.

20% seems a realistic number i remember reading in medal news (how sad am I) a few years back that the survival rate for silver victorian medals was between 12.5 and 25% . So 20% seems a less daunting task.

I understand a large percentage of medals were either buried with the recipient or melted down for their silver value particuarly at the time when the Bunker Hunts tried to corner the silver market in the 70's . I am working from memory so if anyone has any more concrete survivability stats let me know.!!

More importantly if any of our South African friends can provide me with contact details for relevant museums I will expand my search further.

the next stage will be contacting the dealers...

On a positive note as a collector with a particular interest in the Lancers in the AZW - it is encouraging to know there are a good number around that might come on to the market at some time. Merry Christmas

Cheers

sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:56 am

BTW - today I was contacted by the owner of

2198 E Healey Lance Corporal 1879

He attested aged 14 while in India in 16th Lancers. Also served with their band. Volunteered for 17th Lancers along with 31 other privates in Feb 1879. Returned to England 1880.

Its on the list!!
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:00 pm

Keep up the good work SD, i'll keep looking! Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:07 pm

Interesting stat that SD, thanks. I am sure this stat applies to run of the mill Vic campaign medals.
I collect Trafalgar NGS medals as I have a particular interest in that battle as my triple Gt grandfather was on the Colossus at the time! The survival rate of these is around 30%.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:09 pm

In private hands

1106 H Hardiment Private 1879

Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:15 pm

[quote="tasker224"]Interesting stat that SD, thanks. I am sure this stat applies to run of the mill Vic campaign medals.
I collect Trafalgar NGS medals as I have a particular interest in that battle as my triple Gt grandfather was on the Colossus at the time! The survival rate of these is around 30%.[/quote

Collecting Trafalgar NGS is a very expensive and tricky (given the large number of reconstructed medals !!) interest.

Happy to help fund your acquisition of new trafalgar medals by taking any Lancer SAGS off your hands at mates rates Purely in a spirit of helping you out - nothing to do with my own obsession. Oh the self-sacrifice!! lol Suspect

Cheers

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:19 pm

Careful, i might take you up on that!
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:33 pm

Always happy to help - particularly at Xmas - there is no end to my charitibleness (yes you can put another coal on the fire Bob Cratchett) - Merry Christmas

this offer does not include a swap transaction - like I dont know -

a 17th Lancer SAGS - for a certain Sergeant in the 2/24th Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:38 pm

How about a Pte, 17th Lcr kia at Ulundi?
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:52 pm

[quote="SergioD"]
tasker224 wrote:
Interesting stat that SD, thanks. I am sure this stat applies to run of the mill Vic campaign medals.
I collect Trafalgar NGS medals as I have a particular interest in that battle as my triple Gt grandfather was on the Colossus at the time! The survival rate of these is around 30%.[/quote

Collecting Trafalgar NGS is a very expensive and tricky (given the large number of reconstructed medals !!) interest.

Happy to help fund your acquisition of new trafalgar medals by taking any Lancer SAGS off your hands at mates rates Purely in a spirit of helping you out - nothing to do with my own obsession. Oh the self-sacrifice!! lol Suspect

Cheers

Sergio

A lovely 3 clasp Trafalgar NGS went in DNW sale today.
I didn't bid as 2 of the clasps were late claims/additions - genuine medal however. Sorry i didn't bid now, for that hammer price.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:08 pm

haha stop - you know I love my 2/24 sergeant !!

Nice medal though - you know no doubt only one private KIA at ulundi - I believe he was mortally wounded and died afterwards - hence the D/S designation in Duttons list.

in addition for those who are interested
Captain Hon EV Wyatt Edgell (KIA)
Lieut HC Jenkins severley WIA
Lieut WC James WIA attatched to Lancers from 2nd (Royal Scots Greys)Dragoons
1302Farrier-Sergeant J. Taylor (KIA)
1025 Private E. Jones (Mortally WIA).
2145 Private J. Waite (Dangerously WIA.).
1554 J. Keegan (Slightly WIA.)

cheers


Last edited by SergioD on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:26 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:15 pm

£8000 seemed pretty reasonable assuming you can get comfortable with the other clasps. NGS is not my area of interest -i got badly stung at auction on a trafalgar at the start of my collecting career and had to wait 10 years to be able to sell it at break even. never bought another one.

I suppose the price reflects the closeness to xmas etc

will be interested to see what the emery pair goes for tomorrow !!
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:21 am

SergioD wrote:
haha stop - you know I love my 2/24 sergeant !!

Nice medal though - you know no doubt only one private KIA at ulundi - I believe he was mortally wounded and died afterwards - hence the D/S designation in Duttons list.

in addition for those who are interested
Captain Hon EV Wyatt Edgell (KIA)
Lieut WC James slightly WIA attatched to Lancers from 2nd (Royal Scots Greys)Dragoons
Lieut HC Jenkins severley WIA
1302Farrier-Sergeant J. Taylor (KIA)
1025 Private E. Jones (Mortally WIA). actually says dangerously but I noted he had subsequently died will need to check where from
2145 Private J. Waite (Dangerously WIA.).
1554 J. Keegan (Slightly WIA.)

cheers

Given all the scary comments about sources I thought I would go back and check where I had got the casualty list from.
Fortunately it was from Lord Chelmsford's dispatch 4/7/79 so I think I will not be attacked on my source

cheers Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist    Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:32 am

Hi Sergio.
Here is a medal I'm sure we'd like , Corporal Cotter 17th Lcrs KIA with Lt Scott - Douglas 2 / 21st . Cotter's name isnt on the list , Sergio have you ever looked for it's whereabouts ? . I'm sure if it was with you it'd be well and truly on the list , and sorry to say I dont have it either , that leaves Tasker ???.
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:35 am

I wish 90th - Santa would make me very happy if 1704 Corporal W Cotter's medal was under my xmas tree.

I havent come across it yet It might be in the Museum's collection - which I should have more colour on in the new year.

If it came up for auction I would definitely be a bidder - still I have been a good boy this year so who knows!!

here is the discussion re Cotter's death http://www.1879zuluwar.com/t1385-lost-and-killed

Cheers

Sergio Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: 17th Lcr's Medals known to exist    Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:40 pm

Hi Sergio.
I'd imagine there would be some spirited bidding from possibly all sides of the Globe if Cotter's Medal did indeed turn up for auction . Think I'd be involved as well and lets not forget our friend Tasker , I'm certain he'd also be throwing some lolly in as well Shocked .
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:31 am

90th wrote:
Hi Sergio.
I'd imagine there would be some spirited bidding from possibly all sides of the Globe if Cotter's Medal did indeed turn up for auction . Think I'd be involved as well and lets not forget our friend Tasker , I'm certain he'd also be throwing some lolly in as well Shocked .
cheers 90th.


we would have to pool our resources and share it for 4months a year each!! Merry Christmas
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:51 pm

Daft as it sounds, why not? Syndicates own racehorses, holiday homes and other costly assets.
(Might be the only way ordinary collectors get to cherish a VC for example).
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PostSubject: 17th Lcr's Known to still exist    Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:23 pm

Hi Sergio.
Very Happy Sounds like a plan and one that would work ! . Merry Christmas .
Hi Tasker .
Agreed , it does seem to be the only way an ordinary collector will ever procure a VC , unless of course he steals one ! Suspect Merry Christmas
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:58 am

Found
1453 Private G Wilson 1879

keep looking!!
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:39 pm

Quote :
you know no doubt only one private KIA at ulundi - I believe he was mortally wounded and died afterwards

SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL 1877-9, CLASP 1879 ‘1026 PTE E. JONES 17th LANCERS’ KIA DURING THE FAMOUS CHARGE AT THE BATTLE OF ULUNDI

A graphic account of Private Jones’s death by Trumpeter Fred Durham in ‘The White Lancer and Vedette’ Regimental journal of the 17th Lancers, sais;

‘ Pte Jones fought very hard for his life. His horse was shot from under him and he stood for some considerable time cutting the enemy down right and left but was eventually overpowered, cut to pieces and dragged away!.. this was witnessed by the general staff.’

The casualty list in London Gazette for Ulundi on which subsequent casualty rolls are based sais Jones died of Wounds on 4th July. However the return from the 17th Lancers themselves , clearly states he was killed in action and given the eye witness account I think its safe to say the return printed in the London Gazette is in error, as is not uncommon.

Jager1 Wink
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90th

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PostSubject: 17th Lcr Medals Known to exist    Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:16 am

Hi Jager1 .
I can tell you this Medal was offered on Ebay back on 19th June 08 - 22 June 08 for 5,000 GBP'S , again on 8th July 08 - 18th
July 08 for the same price . There were 335 Hits on the first sale and 586 on the second . Unfortunately I never made a note of the seller !
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:38 pm

thanks for the clarification Justin.

Hope things are good with you.

rgds
sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:39 am

Good thanks Sergio, I have a copy of the 17th Lancer return I got with the medal, I will email you a copy

Jager1 Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:30 am

medal to Private Ramsbottom was sold yesterday by J Collins for £750 (not to me unfortunately :-()

The 1879 clasp medal to 861 Sergeant HJS Barrett was sold at Glendennings in 1972 .

His LSGC medal also has survived but is held seperately to the SAGS.
Service papers do exist for Sergeant Barrett. Will post details at a later date.

Cheers

Sergio
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90th

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PostSubject: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist    Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:38 am

Hi Sergio .
I'm sure I checked the J. Collins site last week and didnt notice the ' Ramsbottom Medal ' , Gee you have to keep a constant
lookout dont you ! . No sooner are those Medals listed , they are gone . Suspect . Think I'll have a bit of a look to see what I can unearth . Shocked
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:43 am

90th wrote:
Hi Sergio .
I'm sure I checked the J. Collins site last week and didnt notice the ' Ramsbottom Medal ' , Gee you have to keep a constant
lookout dont you ! . No sooner are those Medals listed , they are gone . Suspect . Think I'll have a bit of a look to see what I can unearth . Shocked
Cheers 90th.

I know Gary I checked yesterday morning and it wasnt there - checked in the afternoon and it had gone!! Its Crazy!! Nice medal has travelled about a bit too was auctioned in the US in 2008.

Cheers

Sergio


Last edited by SergioD on Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist    Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:21 am

Hi Sergio.
The name did seem familiar as its a little unusual , I'm not home so dont have access to my notes , I'll try to remember
to have a look at them tomorrow .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:01 pm

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SergioD

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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:59 pm

Thanks SAS - I knew I had seen it somewhere...


I am also expanding my Research to include LS&GC medals to the 17th where the are entitled to the SAGC medal. If any members have any info on these please let me know.
To day I have tracked the following

1167 G Davidson T Sergeant Major LS&GC
861 HJS Barrett Sergeant LS&GC
1490 G Selwood Corporal LS&GC


All with service papers - I promise to start uploading service details - once I get some spare time.
Any info welcome

Cheers

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Hi SD, I have PMd you - check your mail!
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PostSubject: Pvt. J.Ramsbotton 1332 17th Lcrs   Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:16 am

Hi All .
I checked my notes and thought I remembered him . It was on ebay on the 18 / Sept / 08 , opened at $1.00 USD , sold for $ 650 USD. Then next appeared from what I have at 'The African Military Connection ( In Sth Africa ) it was here at the 20 / march / 10
for R 5398 , It was still there at 3 / Aug / 11 , was sold some time after that, and before 23 / Nov / 11 . If anyone has any other details of its whereabouts feel free to fill in my gaps ! Salute
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:43 am

Latest Medal Found

1744 Private F Call 1879 Very Happy

The search continues - still waiting to hear back from the museum ...

regards

Sergio
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:29 pm

List up-dated and posted on behalf of sergio

J Berryman VC Quartermaster 1879
1176 J Dunn Trumpeter Major 1879
861 HJS Barrett Sergeant 1879
1820 PY Dwyer Lance Sergeant 1879
2371 J Winship Lance Sergeant 1879
1509 JJ Thomas Corporal 1879
1503 FJ Leigh Corporal 1879
2104 W Godfrey Lance Corporal 1879
2198 E Healey Lance Corporal 1879
2205 E Allen Private 1879
2319 S Atkings Private 1879
2209 H Barker Private 1879
2288 I Bartram Private 1879
1051 A Bide Private 1879
2210 J Bluff Private 1879
1744 F Call Private 1879
2213 W Campbell Private 1879
2217 J Clifford Private 1879
2069 W Coldwell Private 1879
2282 G Cooper Private 1879
2295 W Crick Private 1879
2073 H Cunliffe Private 1879
2072 W Day Private No clasp
1628 W Duff Private 1879
2050 W T Featherstone Private 1879
2157 F Ferris Private 1879
1525 G Foster Private 1879
1452 TGH Frost Private 1879
Gardiner Private 1879
1500 R Hammond Private 1879
1644 A Harbison Private 1879
1106 H Hardiment Private 1879
1293 E Harper Private 1879
2329 R Howard Private 1879
2149 W Hunt Private 1879
2124 F Icke Private 1879
2302 AA Jones Private 1879
1025 E Jones Private 1879
2256 R Keeble Private 1879
2299 J Kiernan Private No clasp
2297 H Lane Private 1879
2258 G Lough Private 1879
1203 S Mack Private 1879
2049 W Merry Private 1879
1673 R Milne Private 1879
2305 W Moss Private 1879
2080 AW Mowatt Private 1879
2283 G Oatley Private 1879
1793 J Osthennier Private 1879
2225 T Page Private 1879
1873 EC Peyton Private 1879
1478 VD Potter Private 1879
2232 FJ Price Private 1879
1332 J Ramsbottom Private 1879
2242 LT Reynolds Private 1879
1757 A Scott Private 1879
958 HG Smith Private 1879
2126 C Sparks Private 1879
2231 B Walters Private 1879
2005 J Watts Private 1879
1453 G Wilson Private 1879
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PostSubject: Re: 17th Lancers Medals Known To Exist   Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:09 pm

The SA 1879 Zulu Medal for Private 2297 H Lane of the 17th Lancers was sold today at the Warwick and Warwick Auction House to day at the hammer price of £650.00
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PostSubject: 17th Lancer   Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:44 pm

My gg grandfather was Alexander Glenorchie Sinclair...#2001.  I have his medal and a broach that belonged to his wife.  Although my site is on American swords, I could not resist posting a page for him and the 17th.

aaah...not letting me put a link...this is so frustrating...
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