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 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal

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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:40 pm

Neil. Never been to the Battlefield. Could this be the Kraal in-question.

Brickhill states.

The mounted white force now went down to their assistance and these together held the plains so determinedly that the Zulu lines actually swerved once, and sought to mass together under cover of a kraal. A well-placed shot from one of the field pieces caused considerable havoc and scattered them from there. A general forward movement was now made by the enemy from the kraal just named, right away from the northern nek.
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Neil Aspinshaw



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:58 am

LH
Not that one, Brickhill is referring to those dotted on the plains in front of Isandlwana. These are on the fugitives trail approx 1km from the saddle.
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24th



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:24 am

In the one mentioned by LH, is it not possible, that the artillery shells put pay to some of the 24th.
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barry



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PostSubject: Visit to Isandlwana.   Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:18 am


Hi Neil,

Ok, I am on. Dates look good.
I will pm you.

regards,

barry
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:41 pm

LH.

Could this be what you are looking for?

The book 'Hill of the Sphinx' (Jackson), mentions that,

"Colour Sergeant Wolfe, of Wardell's company, was cut off with twenty men in the rocks above a kraal which he may have been holding with this detachment".

If you have the book, it's in Chapter Six, page 41.
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:39 pm

Martin

I'm sure you have it right there, no other body of the 24th was posativly identified near a kraal other
than Wolfe's section.



Cheers
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:20 pm

Hello Sam.

Thank you, I have searched for anything regarding troops killed at or near a kraal, so when I found the above in 'Hill of the Sphinx' I thought that might be what LH is trying to find.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas Sam, and that 'Santa' will bring you plenty of AZW material. Merry Christmas

Salute
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barry



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi All,

This incident begs a number of questions. They are, in terms of the best info available ;

1) how many men were there killed at the kraal with Sgt Wolfe ?
2) were they indeed killed by friendly fire from a 7pdr RML mountain gun.?
3) if so, this must have been quite early in the development of the battle, and if that is correct ;
4) why was this group of men some 1200 metres away from the main defence lines of the camp and at a
position bearing 241 deg from the car park and almost on the Fugitives Trail. All of which suggests this
was not he ridge which Lt Roberts NNC was on, but rather a mass burial place for those dead found on the
trail

regards

barry

PS ; the mind boggles at the alternative to a friendly fire incident here


Last edited by barry on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:37 pm

"'Hill of the Sphinx' who's the author, not heard of this one...
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:39 pm

Hi Barry.

According to Jackson's HOTS, there were 20 men with Wolfe. Regarding FF, I don't think they were hit by FF, it seems that they were overwhelmed by zulus, so that would rule out 3. The line of thought is that they were supposed to have been a rear guard, but I don't know if that is fact or someones suggestion.

Salute
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:40 pm

CTSG.

F.W.D. Jackson.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:42 pm

His he new on the circuit. Does anyone have this book.
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:52 pm

CTSG.

He is one of the best on the subject. His book can be obtained at the museum at Brecon, PM Bill and he will give you the details. I think it's about £12 or £13. Great book, great read, and great value.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:01 pm

CTSG. You know perfectly well who Jackson is. Just another one of your silly games, that ends up taking the discussion of topic. Give it a rest for Christ sake!!!!
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:03 pm

littlehand wrote:
CTSG. You know perfectly well who Jackson is. Just another one of your silly games, that ends up taking the discussion of topic. Give it a rest for Christ sake!!!!

Salute

Jackson's work is the best, all the sources are easy to find and there is no speculation, just hard
fact and a great read.


Cheers
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:05 pm

DB, don't need that to follow, what I said comes from me, and that's it.
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi LH.

Do you think that might be the men of the 24th that you are looking for? It does look like they were indeed killed near to a kraal, but I can't find anything other than what I first posted (Roberts), regarding any sort of friendly fire incedent.
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littlehand



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:28 pm

It could be, but I'm trying to establish, if it is possible these chaps were killed by friendly fire! Looks like Barry is looking along the same lines. But I still don't think it will be easy to establish who they were, based on we will never know the exact movements of some indivuals, we're they a few straggles from various companies that had banded together?
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Mr M. Cooper



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PostSubject: 24th men killed at Isandlwana near kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm

Yes, that is what I first looked at. But like I said, I did go through Ian Knight's write up about friendly fire incedents, and the only one I could find that stated a kraal was Roberts being shelled by FF. There must have been quite a lot of lead flying about, so it is not impossible that there were quite a few FF incedents, but you would think that a group of 20 men getting hit by FF would have been witnessed and spoken of after the battle, but did the witnesses survive to tell the tale? I will keep looking through the books I have, and if I come accross anything I will post it up for you.
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24th



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:09 pm

But was we aware of this prior to LH posting. Remembering these remains we're found a year later.

Do we have an approx time when the Kraal was shelled by the Artilliery on the 22nd Jan 1879.
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:05 pm

Only people surposed to be killed in a Kraal were Lt. Roberts of the NNH, no one of the 24th were ever reported to have
been killed by friendly fire at Isandlwana.



Cheers
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24th



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:23 pm

So we thought?, but obvisouly it was reported, ie littlehand post that started this thread.
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John



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:42 pm

Quote :
Posted by DB

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 pm
Some figures from Jackson.

From the upper part of the 1/24th camp to the road: Durnford, Wardle, Dyer, Scott, Bradstreet
Hitchcock, one officer of the 24th unrecognisable and 150 men of the 24th.

Slope of Isandlwana above the Artillery camp: Younghusband, two officers of the 24th unrecognisable and 60 men of the 24th.

Nek, on south side of road under Blacks Koppie: around 100 white bodies.

Among the rocks on the bastion, just above a Kraal full of Zulu dead : Colour-Sergeant Wolfe found surrounded by 20 men of the 24th,

This is the only mention I can find to do with members of the 24th and Kraal, and dead Zulu's no doubt from Artilliery fire. Does anyone know when Wolfe and company were buried.
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:45 pm

I'm pretty sure september, thats when Mainwaring i think marked were they died, if anyone has Jackson's book
its covered in there.


Cheers
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John



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:48 pm

Puzzling. These remains we're found months after. scratch
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90th



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PostSubject: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal   Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

There are no reports that I've come across indicating men of the 24th were killed by cannon fire . The only instance of this being recorded is the supposed death of Lt Roberts whom was with his men ( NNC ) was killed on the ridge from memory .
Outside of Wolfe and his men who were killed near a kraal , where it's never mentioned that they were killed by Friendly fire
I dont know if this incident ever happened , Curling who was with the guns has never mentioned it ! . Also the guns didnt fire many shells before they attempted to flee . I'm confident if it happened it would have been seen by one of the survivors and reported later , especially as Curling was right there on the spot . Unless of course some of the conspiracy minded think he covered it up ! .
90th
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:55 pm

Wolfe's section were out near the firing lines, in May the burial party on concetrated on the bodies in and about the camp.

Also the Guns were right next to the 24th companies, short of turning the gun and pointing it directly at the companies, there was no way they could have been hit by Cannon fire.



Cheers
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John



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Was there an account by someone that states the cannons were firing over the heads of the NNC.
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Drummer Boy 14



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:25 pm

Brickhill mentions a shell almost bursting over some NNC, and Stafford records that he heard that Lt. Roberts was
killed on the Spur by cannon fire.



Cheers
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John



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PostSubject: Re: 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal    Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:28 pm

When you say heard! Is it just based on hearsay. Or confirmed. Who was with Roberts and what regiment was he in.
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24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal

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